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NO ENTRY .... what your opinions on this behaviour and whats your advice

  • 08-01-2022 12:10am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭


    We bought a piece of ground 20 years ago and 4 weeks ago I bought another field marching both our fields and my neighbours, put his nose out of joint

    We all use a shared lane as yonks with his land on the right and ours on the left but recently he is blocking the lane with his JCB 3CX, he pulls it across the lane and locked it up on purpose, no talking to him

    At present going through the courts could take years to sort it and not much good at the present time



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Do you require a right of way to the field that you recently bought? Do you need one to access this field? Was the field sold with an right of way into it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    Do you need the lane or do you have access to your ground from the road? Could you open a gap to work away?

    I’d still chase him through the courts, but just wondering if you could work away yourself and leave him with his digger there…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭samjames


    the field is not on the existing lane, its the land we have had as years that the lane goes up through and half ours and half his and he is now blocking the access to the land we have over 20 years, we can access it from another route but its an extra mile plus journey to travel but he does not own the lane



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,290 ✭✭✭tanko


    What have the Guards said about this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭samjames


    not really interested and say its a civil matter



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Sir Galahad


    Call back to the station and. Ask for appointment to see the Inspector. Explain your problem to the Inspector and I suggest you’ll get a better response. I had a similar experience as you recently being told it was a “civil matter” 🤔. I met with inspector and patrol car rolled up twenty minutes later to investigate the incident. Result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,290 ✭✭✭tanko


    Yeah, exactly the same situation happened near me a few years ago, digger parked blocking a lane, guards called, Bull McCabe told to move digger, digger moved. You can’t go around blocking lanes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭samjames


    We contacted them twice, they talk about it being a civil matter and courts, Guards did not seem interested at all and I know if they do come out and told him to move it, he would just move something else there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Escalate - go over their heads to the boss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭893bet


    Is the Jcb close to his house that he will be happy to leave it there for an extended period?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Get guard to give you a signed document stating what action they took



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Its amazing the wayits condition would deteriorate rapidly blocking some lanes alright



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    " that's a civil matter "


    A guards four favourite words in the dictionary



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Oh you can and public highways if only one or two people use them

    Seen a situation twenty years ago where a cousin of mine was denied access to land he had rented ( and his father before him ) for decades, blow in erects a gate three quarters of the way up a one km local authority lane .

    Guy had serious pull with the guards and not only did the guards say ' that's a civil matter " , they told my cousin they would arrest him if he damaged the gate .

    Local authority were too lazy to intervene as only the blow in and my cousin used the highway, eventually a local TD put pressure on the local authority to do something and gate came down nine months later


    Now perhaps the belligerent here has no pull with the boys in blue but I wouldn't be relying on the guards to deal with an access blocking situation with respect of what's not even a lane under the charge of the local authority



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    I took my written complaint to the local station one time - I knew the local Garda was a family friend of the one causing the offence. They had to take it seriously and have a chat with him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭epfff


    Meat factorys know their stuff and seldom do things wrong so why not follow their lead.

    Whe farmers blocked their gate they took out an injunction for losses.

    I'd be thinking that is your most profitable piece of land and is defo costing you 1k a week while you can't get into it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    A quick question who exactly owns the lane I.e. who owns rhe land at either side .Then it is a case of who has a right to use the lane.If the farmer with the jcb who is blocking owns the lane ,then the op would need a right of way to use the lane .Most of these right of ways have never being registered so that is probably the stumbling block .There is alot of grey area in rights of way



  • Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭1373


    Google land direct.ie and zoom in on the area involved. You will see immediately if the lane in in your folio or his or maybe ye both owns a share of the lane . It will give a better angle on how to proceed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    most right of ways are not registered , that it might not be registered does not in any way conclusively invalidate it , woe betide anyone who tries to seize a right of way from someone in this country



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Op said he owns one side, yer man the other so he owns out to half the lane most likely



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Did the new field you bought come with a right of way onto the lane? If not then you cannot access that field via the lane even if you are crossing your own field. He could be within his right to stop you as you would be the one tress passing. Guards are of no use here as it is a civil matter. Best talk to a solicitor to see if it is the case.

    I blocked a forester from traveling a shared lane when he tried to access his own forestry via a private lane that the forest in question had no right of way to even though the forester owned other land with a right of way on the lane. I held a tipper truck for a day, guards came and went did nothing for them. Truck driver begged me to let him out which I eventually did after he made a solemn promise never to return. I had gotten advice from a solicitor and new exactly what to do. It sounds like you neighbor has been advised too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭893bet


    I wouldn’t suggest that. More that of it’s not close to him to keep an eye one he will hardly leave it there long terms and the OP might be able rise above.


    Does the JCB need to be moved for yer man to access aswell? Or has he easy access from the other end some way? if the battery went missing from the JCB it would be a pain in the arse for him to move it when he needs it. Of course he may then use that an an excuse to leave it there long term etc. Excalation will lead to wire getting cut, gates been left open etc.


    Not a pretty situation. I would be inclined to ignore for a month and see if he gets bored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    My understanding is that the field he bought 20 years ago is accessed through the lane that splits his own and his neighbours Land. It's the new purchase at a different location that has put his neighbours nose out of joint and blocked the lane out of spite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    So how do rights of way work exactly?

    I would have thought if a lad had a right of way, it didn’t matter where he went once he got to the end of the right of way - but your post suggests this isn’t the case?

    Why did you stop him? Was it cos he was bringing in forestry machinery or why?

    In this case though, the OP said the lane is also to access the existing land they have with a long time. So how could the jcb owner justify blocking the lane now?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    What I am saying is if you have a field A which has a right of way onto a private lane then if you were to purchase another field at the back of field A which did not have a right of way onto the lane then field B cannot access the lane via field A.

    This has been proven in law many times



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    So you can't put up a gate inbetween field A and field B and run cattle through field A onto the right of way? That sounds a bit mad no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Yes you can go between the two fields, but you cannot access the lane from field B via field A.

    In my case it is easy to prove as the forester had thinned the forest and wanted to take the timber out the lane. It is very obvious that he would be tress passing by doing that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    “If a right of way be granted for the enjoyment of Close A, the grantee, because he owns or acquires Close B, cannot use the way in substance for passing over Close A to Close B.”

    Romer LJ in Harris v Flower (1904)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭minerleague


    I know ROW cant be used for a different purpose ( like forestry in your case ) without approval but youd want to be very contrary to stop someone if field B was been farmed in same manner as field A. Sounds unbelievable anyway as how would you know ( stand watching to see if they went down ROW across field A and stopped at the gap into field B 🤣



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    In my case the forester simply didn't have a ROW for field B. But you do raise another point which comes under intensification of use. Just because someone has a ROW for agricultural activities he suddenly can't set up a different commercial activity like a quarry and use the ROW for access. Forestry comes under that banner too!

    A few years ago I'd have agreed with you in that it would be a very contrary person to stop someone in that way. But I've seen the way people behave and eaten bread is soon forgotten. The courts tend to agree too as there has been cases where ones lost the court case because they couldn't prove that they were only accessing the land that they did have a ROW for not alone the new field B!!!



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I presume the 3cx is of an older type,same key starts all.them


    But that isnt the solution,


    even if you havnt ROW registered,you only need to show/prove usage over last 10 years or so....cousins recently had major issue over a ROW over 160 years old,which went pretty much to steps of court before other crowd copped on


    Id be approaching local neighbour/priest,to talk some sense into him,bit of maddness in us all,and hopefully he cop on & that be end of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    ^^ just shows what a mine field right's of way are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    A right of way is established when you have travelled over the land continuously for more than 20 years. You can lose the ROW in 12 years if it is not registered or not used



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Only a minefield because folks do not understand that at the end of the day you are travelling through someone else's land when you are using a ROW. So it's only right that it cannot be intensified or used to access additional areas



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    As a child I remember my grandad locking a gate once a year (mid Summers day) on lane that he owned that was used by another family to access their home/farm. I think it was to prevent them from having full access/claiming a right of way?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,503 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    idk, gates on a ROW are another weird one. There is no law which states that someone using a ROW must close a gate after themselves so it must be written somewhere into the terms of the ROW if you want the gate to be closed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Who’s responsible for damage to ROW, potholes etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭Aravo


    How many acres are we talking about in the OP's case.

    When OP acquired the land was the other neighbour actively trying to buy it aswell or did the neighbour just express an interest. Did the OP and the neighbour have any discussion on the land. Also, did the OP or the neighbour ever rent the land previously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭MIKEKC


    Yes I think that was the reason. Similar situation near here about 50 years ago. Farmer allowed neighbours walk to their house across his field.This saved them 2miles around a road.(They had no car). Told them one day that he would have to stop them once a year so they wouldn't gain a ROW. They never used his field again.Amazing how easy it is to offend some people



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,638 ✭✭✭Kat1170


    Might very well bite the JCB owner in the ass if it turned out he doesn't have the right of way himself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    OP you will have to land registery to see the exact details if the ROW. It would be unusual if the lane or as shared. Usually one ownes it and the other has a ROW over it.

    If it is a shared lane it may appear as a separate folio. It unlikely to appear as a line down the middle as this only entitles you to use half the lane and the other farmer the same.

    Forrestery would be deemed an agricultural activity.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    It is possible that the land be owned to the center of the road by the land owners on each side. Then each landowner has a ROW over the others half. Maintenance is always shared by the users whether they own the land or just have a ROW.

    Ownership to the center of the road comes into its own when someone wants to bring say a water main or telecom along the road, then it is at whatever side of the road that they bring the service that land owner gives the easement (if he wants or he could tell the to f-off too)


    As for forestry, yes it is an agricultural activity, but that doesn't give someone the right to intensify the use of a ROW by instead of travelling the ROW with a MF135 they now want to bring 18 wheeler artic in the ROW to remove trees etc. Sorry to say it's tuff diddy, they have to get out the cheque book or else leave the trees standing as this is a classic case of intensification of use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    But your only there 20 years so did you and your neighbour voluntary give a part of land each to use as a shared roadway/access between the 2 of you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Unless it is stated in some agreement it usually falls upon the users of the ROW, not necessarily the land owner. But that doesn't mean that 1 user can wreck the road and expect the others to pay the maintenance, quite the opposite. If one user damages the ROW in such a way as it impedes others to use the ROW then they can bring a case against him. Plenty of examples in the courts where the Judge takes a dim view of people damaging roads and have applied hefty awards against them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It is possible but it would not be the general run of ROW's. That is why I said check land registry. Maintenance is not shared on a ROW. It is the owner of the land that has to maintain the ROW. It's a huge issues especially if the main user is not the owner. If you have a ROW there is no liability on you to maintain it if you do not own it.

    Intensity on a ROW is hard to control. Where the issue arises is where a large landbank has to be accessed, maybe 100 acres+. Us it reasonable that someone still has to access it with a horse and cart. At the same time ROW'S are defined by width and access points. You cannot interfere with these. But neither can you be denied reasonable access over a ROW.

    Usually the cheque book is not the issue it's that access.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    Harvesting forestry is a commercial activity, growing it is agricultural



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    <Mod snip> It is not the owner of the land who has to maintain the ROW it is the owner of the ROW. It is established in common law that the servient owner (that is the land owner) is under no obligation to maintain it. If someone with a right to use the roadway (“the dominant owner”) wants it mended, it is up to them not the underlying land owner.

    It is common enough that many ROWs are divided down the center or passing over a single owner or combinations of them. The case you are portraying of a ROW over a single landowner is not that common for older ROWs. Often many farms share the same lane.

    Looking at the land registry will not necessarily tell you anything. A ROW does not have to be registered or recorded to exist. The ROW does not have to be registered on the folio it is on, it could be registered on the folio of the owner of the ROW.

    A ROW is a type of easement. Just because you have an easement to travel along a laneway does not grant you automatic entitlement to get other types of easements such as watermains, telecom etc

    Post edited by greysides on


  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Im pretty sure the maintenance of right of way falls upon those using it


    the one involving my cousins eventually settled on user opening/closing gates,never fencing it(crossed farmland,old mass path and had to allow access to old trickle wells still in "use")

    and some agreement on reasonable bio-security measures



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    Id say water public water mains is a essential service like the ESB ...not too sure do they need a easement to put down a underground water pipe.... telecoms do but they all mostly private operators now



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