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Hate Speech Public Consultation

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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no, clearly those doing that are knuckle draggers, however that is already covered by existing legislation.

    existing legislation deals with stuff like this perfectly fine and has the support of the majority.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    deleted.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Can you be specific about examples of hate crime that are not punishable under existing legislation that are covered under this new legislation, that you support.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You assume I support it.

    And if you read the proposed legislation properly, you would see that it mostly makes amendments to the NFOATP act, the Public Order act, and Criminal damage acts. But of course you haven't read it all.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Current legislation only covers incitement. Proposed new legislation will cover that and add the following offences:

    • Assault aggravated by prejudice 
    • Assault causing harm, aggravated by prejudice
    • Causing serious harm, aggravated by prejudice 
    • Threats to kill or cause serious harm, aggravated by prejudice 
    • Coercion aggravated by prejudice 
    • Harassment aggravated by prejudice 
    • Endangerment aggravated by prejudice 
    • Damaging property, aggravated by prejudice 
    • Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place, aggravated by prejudice 
    • Distribution or display in a public place of material which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene, aggravated by prejudice 
    • Entering building, etc. with intent to commit an offence, aggravated by prejudice 
    • Assault with intent to cause bodily harm or commit an indictable offence, aggravated by prejudice
    • Denial or gross trivialisation of crimes of genocide


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Shouldn't be racist any where,but racism is pretty easily identified ,but people reporting others to authorities for a general disagreement,under the guise of oh I feel a reply to me or someone is a perceived as a hate crime or some variety, which then leads to a full police investigation ,but when it's realised there was no hate crime but somehow the complainent is still a victim



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As I said, amendments to other acts.

    Anyway, no guarantee it will get through, personally, as it is I don't see it being passed



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Did you read my post to you Robbie, maybe 2 posts back. That will answer your question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Ahwell


    There has been only 5 convictions under the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989 in the past 30 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    These are the bits I have the most problems with.

    Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place, aggravated by prejudice 

    Distribution or display in a public place of material which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene, aggravated by prejudice 

    Threatening is easy to define. Abusive........not so easy to define. Insulting.........not practicable to define it as it's very subjective. What one person finds insulting, another person isn't bothered by it. It shouldn't be a crime to say something or distribute something that someone finds insulting. Way too subjective.

    Sometimes it's simple and sometimes it's difficult to determine if someone acted 'with prejudice'? If I insult a woman or a black person or someone with one leg shorter than the other, does that mean I acted 'with prejudice because she is of a protected characteristic and I've committed an offence? If I send out a meme that makes fun of travellers, or people with one leg shorter than the other, how do you know I acted 'with prejudice'.

    My fear here is that you won't be able to say anything negative (that could be perceived as being insulting or obscene) to anybody in a protected characteristic. This legislation, if passed, gives too much power to shut down opposing views.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It should be noted that "Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place" and "distribution or display in a public place of material which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene, aggravated by prejudice" are both already offences under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994. The new offences are simply both of the above with an aggravating factor.

    In short, this has been on the statute book for 28 years and I'm unawawre of any case where someone was prosecuted for sharing their views because of subjective interpretations of what was abusive or insulting. Lot of scaremongering happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    I don't know TQM did I read your post. It would probably be easier for us both if you just answered the question.

    Was the Austrian woman we were discussing convicted under hate crimes in Austria and was she appealing a conviction under hate crime legislation to the ECHR under her article 10 rights?

    Or was she convicted on what amounts to blasphemy laws in Austria?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Ahwell


    "unlike in the UK, the test for hate speech will be objective rather than subjective. There, speech can be treated as hateful if another member of the public believes it to be hateful. However under the Irish proposals, specific and pre-existing guidelines will be used to determine if speech is hateful, not just whether the alleged victim felt they were the victim of a hate attack."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/planned-hate-speech-laws-will-contain-higher-bar-for-prosecution-1.4438867



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Ahwell


    "In a report published in December 2017 by the EU Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA), Ireland ranked highest among the EU Member States in which respondents from a sub-Saharan background experienced 6 or more physical attacks due to their ethnic or immigrant background in the 5 years preceding the survey (21% of respondents compared to the EU group average of 9%). 8% of respondents in Ireland reported having experienced 6 or more physical attacks due to their ethnic or immigrant background in the 12 months prior to the survey, compared to an EU group average of 2%. In an earlier FRA study, published in 2014, Ireland recorded the second highest rate of hate-motivated violence against transgender people in Europe: In the 12 months prior to the survey, 13% of trans respondents in Ireland reported having been physically or sexually assaulted or threatened with violence, in attacks either wholly or partly motivated by transphobia, compared to the EU average of 8%." Clearly the existing legislation is not fit for purpose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    This is a discussion Robbie. What would be easier is if you read peoples' posts. That way, you won't have to ask questions that have already been answered. It is post number 2244, a mere one page back from this one. I find it strange that you 'don't know' if you read it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    I did read your post. I didn't remember it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion it was whataboutism from you, I can see that now having reread it and wasting my time.

    The woman you are referring to was not convicted on hate crimes, she did not appeal a hate crime conviction under her article 10 rights to the ECHR. She was convicted under what amounts to blasphemy laws in Austria and she failed three times in courts to prove the validity of her statement.

    I hold both the Austrian court system and the ECHR's opinion on this matter well above yours an anonymous poster on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Great Robbie. The point made of course was that she was charged for saying what she did under the hate crime laws there, and this has the potential to create a climate of fear. The post was only made a few hours ago and you've already forgotten the contents. Maybe you should invest in some omega tablets. There's a good lad. Have a nice evening Robbie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Not being found guilty under a law will create a "climate of fear", please do explain this logic?



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Sure it's all off topic according to you. As I said, have a nice evening Robbie.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Well actually now we are discussing the relevant hate crime which she wasn't convicted under, so feel free to explain how this Austrian woman being found not guilty of a hate crime created a climate of fear.

    Seeing as the case was back in 2011 I guess you will be able to support this climate of fear claim with actual events in Austria following the states failure to convict her on said hate crime legislation.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Section 6 of the public order act 1994, threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place. In the books since 94, that's 28 years.

    Literally thousands have been found guilty in the district courts all over the country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No. Thats not true. Am attempt to prosecute a person for doing just that failed because of the existing legislations inadequacy.

    Man cleared of online hatred against Travellers (irishexaminer.com)

    The Facebook Traveller Case-Implications for Social Media and Freedom of Speech - Terry Gorry & Co. Solicitors (businessandlegal.ie)

    In fact The Law Reform Commission explains in detail why

    Full Colour Cover Report on Harmful Communications and Digital Safety.pdf (lawreform.ie)

    The 1989 Act, which is the principal Act within this area, is ineffective, with only a limited number of convictions secured under it.329 This is because the offences under the Act are very difficult to prove, particularly the stirring up hatred offence under section 2.

    So your assertion that the current law deals with the example given is untrue and your assertion the current law deals with stuff like this generally perfectly fine is untrue too.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It proves the current legislation is unworkable

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    How could she be charged under hate crime laws if she was charged under blasphemy laws. Hate Crime and Blasphemy are not the same thing. Hate Crime and Hate Speech are not the same thing.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    But she was. And that's the problem. Insulting the prophet can be construed as being hateful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    She wasn't charged under hate crime legislation. You have been told that about 3 times already. Perhaps you're just deliberately acting stupid.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Haha well then why did you respond to post. It's relevant because it's possible the same can happen here.



This discussion has been closed.
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