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Are we over dosing animals?

  • 21-12-2021 9:33pm
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭MTU

    Genuine question, I’ll offer my opinion first.

    Yes I think we are, not picking on any one but I see on another thread there posted earlier and a poster asking strangers what to dose their animals.

    Correct me if I’m wrong put a prescription from a vet is coming in and perhaps that is a good thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,642 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey

    We probably are. I was on at the others here to get them dung sampled before dosing this year as they look fine and no coughing/failing. We should only be administering dose when needed and part of that would be improved testing to determine the need. Should farmers be trained to do this themselves?

    I would also like to try some herbal leys which have species with anthelmintic properties - plus not grazing tight will reduce worm uptake. Cost will be the driver for everyone.

  • Registered Users Posts: 32 matt.v

    Yes, we completely are. My father barrels through the long acting penicillin, because if theres any doubt about an animal at all because "it wont do them any harm anyway".

    Granted its not going to be easy to switch to a prescription based symptom, especially if you're stuck with a vet call out fee each time. If that is the case, I see this being a terrible thing for animal welfare, especially young calves who might need an auld injection the most.

    Also noticed in the independent farming pull-out today that the government Ads about the new system haven't been updated, and they're still saying its coming into effect at the end of January

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee

    Ah, isn’t penicillin already a prescribed medicine? So if yer flaking through that now, how will prescribing doses help?

    as funky said - fecal sampling seems to be the way it’s going.

  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭MTU

    Thanks for the input posters.

    Is the end user becoming a cropper of all this dosing?

  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Emery Sticky Rose

    Everyone is coming a cropper from the overuse of chemicals and antibiotics, whether they realise it or not.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,769 ✭✭✭paddysdream

    Yes , I think so .

    Dosing (worm) is so cheap relative to other inputs that many seem to be of the opinion that giving them a shot almost every time the are in is a good idea .

    Been there done that previously .Sheep here are only dosed according to FEC results plus the nematodirus dose . Same with antibiotic usage .Its great stuff when you know what you are treating and what you are giving but the idea that a quick shot of pen strep or almycin will revive an animal ?

    All that said will miss the easy procurement of Enroxil/Baytril for watery mouth in lambs .No more getting a bottle for lambing season .It will be on a case by case basis .Lots use Spectam which is going off the market ,many giving it to every lamb born .Never found it to be of any use and haven't had it here in years but the anti microbials were excellent .

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks

    It depends on the year, generally dose calves in Jun/Jul for worms, everything in August and then after shedding, but was involved in a lung worm burden in September that took a cow and yearling heifer.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,317 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm

    No - they cannot be slaughtered until the withdrawal date has passed. The carcass will be tossed into the skip if they don't pass this test.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,317 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm

    Any member of the public can contact the Food Safety Authority if they have suspicions. I have submitted food samples twice in the past and have found their response satisfactory in both instances. I only contacted them when I didn't get a satisfactory answer from the Supermarkets when I complained.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,642 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey

    What was it about the produce that made you complain in the first instance? Was the flavour tainted?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,803 ✭✭✭✭wrangler

    Feeding ewes welll to ensure good quality colostrum and proper hygiene is the healthiest answer to watery mouth, spectram is just another antibiotic that's overused and is on borrowed time.

    The way wormer resistance is rampant around the country now, farmers are only guessing if dosing lambs without testing, I've seen cydectin fail on one farm and yellow dose fail on another farm, all it'll take now is one of those farms to buy sheep off the other, then they'll have real problems

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,317 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm

    Larvae in imported nuts, suspicious looking inclusions (looked like turds) in an unopened packet if Irish salad leaves (turned out to be dark mud).

    The live larvae could have developed into an undesirable in Ireland but did prove they weren't using pesticides.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,803 ✭✭✭✭wrangler

    Well done, seems to be very easy done, I can't seem to see down the microscope, but any junior cert student should be capable of doing it

  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Emery Sticky Rose

    Nice thing to have seeing as I had the microscope anyway. Instant results! Once I learn my arse from my elbow with it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭I says

    I dose bought in animals on day of purchase and then a drench when indoors overwinter. Bayticol when let out to grass in the spring.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe

    It's hard to know how to properly dose cattle. It seems to be a battle between the worms and the animal's immune system. If you overdose, it seems to cause 2 problems. One you kill off all , or most of the worms in the pasture. Cattle never get exposed to worms as they grow and so never develop a natural immunity.

    Secondly the worms that do survive develope an immunity to the wormers and so dosing becomes ineffective.

    I think it is best to maybe wait till calves are coughing in the first season before dosing and also vary dose types from year to year.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭hopeso

    My vet was going on about rumen fluke years ago. Long before I heard of it and before the BEEP sampling. He was saying I should be dosing for it.

    This year, my BEEP samples showed the presence of rumen fluke, so I asked the same vet for advice regarding dosing. His advice was not to dose them for it at all, unless they had very loose dung. He went on to advise me to take samples before dosing for fluke too. His opinion was more or less that the fluke was less of a problem to the animal than the dosing... developing a resistance to the drug being the biggest issue. This is a complete turn around to his thinking a few years ago, which seems to indicate that professionals are changing their way of thinking on this.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe

    Read the AHI literature on Rumen Fluke. In line with what your vet is saying.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,803 ✭✭✭✭wrangler

    OH is on Twitter if you have any queries, I'm sure you know her or I could pm you her phone number.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭minerleague

    Read an article in journal by vet that said similar ( all cattle at grass will have some trace of rumen fluke, only one active dose effective against it so if resistance develops nothing left, if cattle appear healthy best leave alone ) My cows showed high in rumen fluke last year in BEEP but they were on outside block with poor crush so left them, then thought they too heavy in-calf when home so ended up not doing them at all. This year low rumen fluke detected.

  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Emery Sticky Rose

    Thanks for that 👍️ Will take you up on it if I get myself stuck.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee

    Let us know how you get on Herd…

    Tis something I have in the back of my mind starting as well. Be very interested how you get on, and how easy it is…

  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]

    It’ll be all a bit too late when the next pandemic is driven by some antibiotic resistant superbug that’s come about due to excessive use of antibiotics like these.

    We see these things coming, but we aren’t really capable of thinking long term and market conditions will keep driving short term gain, so nothing will be done until it happens.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,317 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm

    That would be the way to go - not too expensive either. Definitely interested.

  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Emery Sticky Rose

    Shouldn't be too hard, lots of videos on YouTube on how to do the process and the bits and pieces needed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,769 ✭✭✭paddysdream

    Spectam is going from the market totally I think .

    Agree with beastings being the answer but the odd time you get a ewe that seems to have poor quality stuff that might not be obvious. Or a lamb / lambs that miss out for some reason especially at peak lambing .

    Baytril etc is about the only answer at that stage.

    Had an issue re. wormer resistance here some years ago but thankfully over that now .Still blame routine dosing of mature ewes as causing it .It was an ivermectin problem from dosing ewes with closamectin in the winter for fluke for a few years in a row .

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,755 ✭✭✭blackbox

    Do these wormers kill earthworms via dung or slurry?

    That would have a serious affect on soil fertility.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks

    No lungworm and stomach worms are totally different to earthworms

    Dosing livestock has no effect on soil fertility

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe

    Ivermectin does have an adverse effect on the world's strongest animal, the humble dung beetle.

    Low doses of ivermectin cause sensory and locomotor disorders in dung beetles | Scientific Reports (