Are we over dosing animals?

MTU · 21-12-2021 10:33pm #1

Genuine question, I’ll offer my opinion first.

Yes I think we are, not picking on any one but I see on another thread there posted earlier and a poster asking strangers what to dose their animals.

Correct me if I’m wrong put a prescription from a vet is coming in and perhaps that is a good thing.

funkey_monkey · 21-12-2021 10:57pm

We probably are. I was on at the others here to get them dung sampled before dosing this year as they look fine and no coughing/failing. We should only be administering dose when needed and part of that would be improved testing to determine the need. Should farmers be trained to do this themselves?

I would also like to try some herbal leys which have species with anthelmintic properties - plus not grazing tight will reduce worm uptake. Cost will be the driver for everyone.

matt.v · 21-12-2021 10:59pm

Yes, we completely are. My father barrels through the long acting penicillin, because if theres any doubt about an animal at all because "it wont do them any harm anyway".

Granted its not going to be easy to switch to a prescription based symptom, especially if you're stuck with a vet call out fee each time. If that is the case, I see this being a terrible thing for animal welfare, especially young calves who might need an auld injection the most.

Also noticed in the independent farming pull-out today that the government Ads about the new system haven't been updated, and they're still saying its coming into effect at the end of January

Dinzee Conlee · 21-12-2021 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358682#Comment_118358682

Ah, isn’t penicillin already a prescribed medicine? So if yer flaking through that now, how will prescribing doses help?

as funky said - fecal sampling seems to be the way it’s going.

MTU · 21-12-2021 11:26pm

Thanks for the input posters.

Is the end user becoming a cropper of all this dosing?

21-12-2021 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358824#Comment_118358824

Everyone is coming a cropper from the overuse of chemicals and antibiotics, whether they realise it or not.

paddysdream · 21-12-2021 11:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223864/are-we-over-dosing-animals

Yes , I think so .

Dosing (worm) is so cheap relative to other inputs that many seem to be of the opinion that giving them a shot almost every time the are in is a good idea .

Been there done that previously .Sheep here are only dosed according to FEC results plus the nematodirus dose . Same with antibiotic usage .Its great stuff when you know what you are treating and what you are giving but the idea that a quick shot of pen strep or almycin will revive an animal ?

All that said will miss the easy procurement of Enroxil/Baytril for watery mouth in lambs .No more getting a bottle for lambing season .It will be on a case by case basis .Lots use Spectam which is going off the market ,many giving it to every lamb born .Never found it to be of any use and haven't had it here in years but the anti microbials were excellent .

Hard Knocks · 22-12-2021 12:15am

It depends on the year, generally dose calves in Jun/Jul for worms, everything in August and then after shedding, but was involved in a lung worm burden in September that took a cow and yearling heifer.

Lime Tree Farm · 22-12-2021 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358824#Comment_118358824

No - they cannot be slaughtered until the withdrawal date has passed. The carcass will be tossed into the skip if they don't pass this test.

Lime Tree Farm · 22-12-2021 9:55am

Any member of the public can contact the Food Safety Authority if they have suspicions. I have submitted food samples twice in the past and have found their response satisfactory in both instances. I only contacted them when I didn't get a satisfactory answer from the Supermarkets when I complained.

funkey_monkey · 22-12-2021 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359646#Comment_118359646

What was it about the produce that made you complain in the first instance? Was the flavour tainted?

wrangler · 22-12-2021 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118358889#Comment_118358889

Feeding ewes welll to ensure good quality colostrum and proper hygiene is the healthiest answer to watery mouth, spectram is just another antibiotic that's overused and is on borrowed time.

The way wormer resistance is rampant around the country now, farmers are only guessing if dosing lambs without testing, I've seen cydectin fail on one farm and yellow dose fail on another farm, all it'll take now is one of those farms to buy sheep off the other, then they'll have real problems

Lime Tree Farm · 22-12-2021 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359827#Comment_118359827

Larvae in imported nuts, suspicious looking inclusions (looked like turds) in an unopened packet if Irish salad leaves (turned out to be dark mud).

The live larvae could have developed into an undesirable in Ireland but did prove they weren't using pesticides.

22-12-2021 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360068#Comment_118360068

Santa came early here

wrangler · 22-12-2021 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360456#Comment_118360456

Well done, seems to be very easy done, I can't seem to see down the microscope, but any junior cert student should be capable of doing it

22-12-2021 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360502#Comment_118360502

Nice thing to have seeing as I had the microscope anyway. Instant results! Once I learn my arse from my elbow with it.

I says · 22-12-2021 1:18pm

I dose bought in animals on day of purchase and then a drench when indoors overwinter. Bayticol when let out to grass in the spring.

patsy_mccabe · 22-12-2021 3:28pm

It's hard to know how to properly dose cattle. It seems to be a battle between the worms and the animal's immune system. If you overdose, it seems to cause 2 problems. One you kill off all , or most of the worms in the pasture. Cattle never get exposed to worms as they grow and so never develop a natural immunity.

Secondly the worms that do survive develope an immunity to the wormers and so dosing becomes ineffective.

I think it is best to maybe wait till calves are coughing in the first season before dosing and also vary dose types from year to year.

hopeso · 22-12-2021 3:41pm

My vet was going on about rumen fluke years ago. Long before I heard of it and before the BEEP sampling. He was saying I should be dosing for it.

This year, my BEEP samples showed the presence of rumen fluke, so I asked the same vet for advice regarding dosing. His advice was not to dose them for it at all, unless they had very loose dung. He went on to advise me to take samples before dosing for fluke too. His opinion was more or less that the fluke was less of a problem to the animal than the dosing... developing a resistance to the drug being the biggest issue. This is a complete turn around to his thinking a few years ago, which seems to indicate that professionals are changing their way of thinking on this.

patsy_mccabe · 22-12-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361358#Comment_118361358

Read the AHI literature on Rumen Fluke. In line with what your vet is saying.

wrangler · 22-12-2021 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360533#Comment_118360533

OH is on Twitter if you have any queries, I'm sure you know her or I could pm you her phone number.

minerleague · 22-12-2021 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361358#Comment_118361358

Read an article in journal by vet that said similar ( all cattle at grass will have some trace of rumen fluke, only one active dose effective against it so if resistance develops nothing left, if cattle appear healthy best leave alone ) My cows showed high in rumen fluke last year in BEEP but they were on outside block with poor crush so left them, then thought they too heavy in-calf when home so ended up not doing them at all. This year low rumen fluke detected.

22-12-2021 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361482#Comment_118361482

Thanks for that 👍️ Will take you up on it if I get myself stuck.

Dinzee Conlee · 22-12-2021 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118361770#Comment_118361770

Let us know how you get on Herd…

Tis something I have in the back of my mind starting as well. Be very interested how you get on, and how easy it is…

22-12-2021 7:35pm

It’ll be all a bit too late when the next pandemic is driven by some antibiotic resistant superbug that’s come about due to excessive use of antibiotics like these.

We see these things coming, but we aren’t really capable of thinking long term and market conditions will keep driving short term gain, so nothing will be done until it happens.

Lime Tree Farm · 22-12-2021 7:35pm

That would be the way to go - not too expensive either. Definitely interested.

22-12-2021 7:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118362352#Comment_118362352

Shouldn't be too hard, lots of videos on YouTube on how to do the process and the bits and pieces needed.

paddysdream · 22-12-2021 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360068#Comment_118360068

Spectam is going from the market totally I think .

Agree with beastings being the answer but the odd time you get a ewe that seems to have poor quality stuff that might not be obvious. Or a lamb / lambs that miss out for some reason especially at peak lambing .

Baytril etc is about the only answer at that stage.

Had an issue re. wormer resistance here some years ago but thankfully over that now .Still blame routine dosing of mature ewes as causing it .It was an ivermectin problem from dosing ewes with closamectin in the winter for fluke for a few years in a row .

blackbox · 22-12-2021 10:04pm

Do these wormers kill earthworms via dung or slurry?

That would have a serious affect on soil fertility.

Hard Knocks · 22-12-2021 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363156#Comment_118363156

No lungworm and stomach worms are totally different to earthworms

Dosing livestock has no effect on soil fertility

patsy_mccabe · 22-12-2021 10:39pm

Ivermectin does have an adverse effect on the world's strongest animal, the humble dung beetle.

Low doses of ivermectin cause sensory and locomotor disorders in dung beetles | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Dinzee Conlee · 22-12-2021 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363245#Comment_118363245

I thought there was some link between ivermectin based doses not being good for dung beetles/soil based critters?

Edit - I see patsy beat me to it…

greysides · 22-12-2021 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363121#Comment_118363121

Had an issue re. wormer resistance here some years ago but thankfully over that now

Well, it would be nice if that was the case. It would also be unexpected. Wormer resistance isn't known to go away. After years of avoiding using a particular wormer that resistance has developed to, it is possible to get a very brief improvement, but it disappears very quickly.

JohnChadwick · 22-12-2021 11:21pm

Always dose weanlings with albex 2 weeks before housing.

That's it otherwise, as we're in organics in any case.

Often reflect that it doesn't make sense that organic farmers have to pay for certification that proves they operate in a more restricted way in terms of dosing. Should be other way around.

paddysdream · 22-12-2021 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363618#Comment_118363618

Not gone away in the sense of its back working as it should ,rather that I still use ivermectin class drenches on some occasions but with no residual effect evident .

Thankfully both yellow and white still working as they should according to FEC results .

Buy in very few breeding sheep and usually zolvix them before mixing with my own .

Use doses sparingly nowadays and would always FEC before and after dosing.

Problem is that it costs as much as the chemical at times .Reality ,and I know it probably looks stupid to say it is that sheep dosing is cheap as chips which means dosing is not a big cost .Farmers see a dirty lamb and in with the dosing gun instead of actually finding out if they actually have a worm burden or something else .

n1st · 22-12-2021 11:57pm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/371200653448424/permalink/1058682914700191/

Dinzee Conlee · 23-12-2021 1:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363871#Comment_118363871

That is a link about a lad doing regenerative, which would be organic I suppose in this sense.

this to me is kinda different to over dosing animals, or determining when and how to dose in a conventional sense…

minerleague · 23-12-2021 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363661#Comment_118363661

Can't understand the rules around dosing and organics, might have to jump through a few more hoops but you can dose / inject without losing organic status ( an animal injected with antibiotics twice can be sold conventional without affecting herd organic status ) Doubt consumers who buy organic are fully aware of these rules?

JohnChadwick · 23-12-2021 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365474#Comment_118365474

As above, dose an animal more than twice and the particular animal only loses organic status (think), bit more documenting/inspection and treble the withdrawal period.

Awareness depends who the consumers are.

Illogical that organic farmers must pay for that, by way of being certified. Surely its 'conventional' farming that must be certified.

23-12-2021 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118363245#Comment_118363245

Long boring contrary post that some might do their blood pressure good by not reading 😁

It's not the hill I'm going to die on today (that one's called Mt. Booster 😂), because I haven't and don't have the intention either of Googling for links, but I don't think I would agree that using "-icides" or other synthetic chemicals has no effect on soil fertility. I'd probably be of the opposite opinion.

Often studies only study target organisms vs synthetic chemical = they died, yay that works.

I'd think there are also studies out there outlining non target organisms vs synthetic chemical = oops, they died too.

The big deal about that is, soil fertility, parasite/pest/disease reduction.

If you take it that aerobic beneficial organisms out compete, inhibit and consume - for want of a better word - bad guys, ie pests, parasites, disease causing organisms.

Your plant produces with the help of photosynthesis and through it's roots excretes exudates. It does this to attract specific fungi & bacteria around it's roots, for a number of benefits to the plant, nutrient supply, protection.

The specific bacteria & fungi species attracted to the root zone then use their enzymes to extract non available nutrients from sand, silt, clay, rocks etc. These nutrients mostly still exist, if we forget about rhizophagy for the minute (plants directly ingesting bacteria), in plant unavailable form.

Predators of bacteria & fungi - I'm tempted to say if present in that soil as often with green revolution practices many important actors are missing , are those knives I hear being sharpened?- come along and eat some bacteria or fungi depending on who the predator is.

There are excessive nutrients for the predators, so they do what we all need to do at some point and excrete the excess. Seeing as the bacteria and fungi attracted by our plant are mostly around the roots, these now plant available excreted nutrients are right beside the plant roots to be taken up.

OR if the plant doesn't for some reason get some of these nutrients, an organism will come along and consume them and so it begins again.

So, does using synthetic chemicals affect soil fertility negatively? Yes, imo, between being salts and interfering with the water film in the soil or being straight out "icides" killing the organisms who's job it is to cycle nutrients for the plants, to be harvested or consumed in one way or another by livestock/people.

Regards from the bunker 😃

Birdnuts · 23-12-2021 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118365841#Comment_118365841

Very little doubt that intensive farming methods have dramatically reduced the nutrient contents of everything from carrots to chickens since WW2.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/30/topsoil-farming-agriculture-food-toxic-america

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/

"The modern combination of intensive tilling, lack of cover crops, synthetic fertilizers and pesticide use has left farmland stripped of the nutrients, minerals and microbes that support healthy plant life."

23-12-2021 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118366780#Comment_118366780

I think it's Dan Kitterage that's developing a scanner to assess the nutrient level in some "produce" as they'd call it. No idea how that project is going.

One of the lectures on the course I'm doing had a study in NZ, 2003 I think, where farming biologically cured dairy cow facial eczema that in their opinion the lack of nutrients had either caused or allowed in as a secondary invader. Interesting stuff to me anyway.

Are we over dosing animals?

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