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Formula 1 Round 22 Abu Dhabi GP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,406 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    Will ya just stop, Max is champion and absolutely fully deserved. End of discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,839 ✭✭✭quokula


    It's perfectly normal for lapped cars to be let past (in fact it would be completely unprecedented if they weren't)

    It's perfectly normal for the safety car to be called in once the track is clear.

    Everybody fully expected these two things to happen once the crash occurred, this is why Red Bull pitted immediately and Hamilton was so distraught on the radio.

    The only abnormal thing was the strange delay in letting the lapped cars past.

    Latifi crashed on lap 53. The car was clear on lap 55 and on lap 56 the last of the marshalls who were clearing up some off track debris returned behind the barriers. Lapped cars don't immediately get up to racing speed when they are let past the safety car, they are told to maintain an appropriate speed. It is safe for them to be allowed past once the blockage is clear, even if there are some marshalls cleaning up the last of the debris, as this would be treated like a VSC. This is why on lap 55 Lewis Hamilton's race engineer got on the radio and told him the lapped cars are about to be let past, as he was expecting normal procedure to be followed. This is why Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso, two experienced world champions with no affiliation to either Mercedes or Red Bull, both got on the radio to their teams asking why lapped cars weren't being allowed past like they normally are.

    When the FIA announced out of the blue that they were taking the unprecedented step of not allowing lapped cars to pass Alonso (who was one of the lapped cars and is entirely unaffiliated to the two teams fighting for the title) literally laughed upon hearing the announcement and said they're keeping Max behind him when he should be in front of him.

    Who knows what the reason was for that initial plan to go against all precedent and not allow lapped cars to pass. It was safe when the car was clear on lap 55 and multiple drivers were on the radio wondering why it wasn't happening, then it was even more safe on lap 56 when the marshalls had all left the run off area entirely. However, they didn't do this, until they eventually changed their minds and decided to apply the normal rules on lap 57 and let the lapped cars through. This meant that they had to compress things somewhat and have less of a gap between letting the lapped cars through and pulling the safety car in than they normally would, but this ultimately had zero impact on the outcome.

    Not allowing the lapped cars past would have gone against all precedent. Not finishing the race under green flags when it's a 58 lap race and the blockage is completely clear on lap 56 would have gone against basic common sense in addition to going against the regulations that state that the race will be started when the clerk of the course deems the track safe. It would also have gone against a previous agreement among all teams that ending under a green flag should always be the priority call if it is safe to do so.

    The only minor hiccup was the delay in letting the lapped cars through, but if they'd been allowed through a lap earlier when they should have been it would have had zero impact. A lot of the controversy on Sky was really just manufactured because their man lost. Safety cars are a part of F1. When a car crashes and stops on the racing line you absolutely expect a safety car, you expect the backmarkers to be cleared like normal, and you expect a return to racing if the incident is entirely clear two laps before the end of the race. Red Bull expected all of this, made the correct tactical choices, and Max executed perfectly with a superb overtake when the race restarted. It's as simple as that.

    Max got lucky that Latifi crashed when he did certainly. It gave him an opportunity to gain 7 points (but only if he and the team executed on it perfectly, which they did). Lewis has gained more points than that from previous similar situations this season and if you managed to come up with some system that eliminated all possible advantages or disadvantages from safety cars and red flags and found a way to retroactively apply it across the whole season, Max would still be champion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭Bigus


    Well said,

    I wonder how the non British motorsport commentators press have been reacting? I think it’s really a mainly British upset.

    I’d say if it was Nico Rosberg in the Mercedes the Brits wouldn’t be a fraction as apoplectic as they are .

    Also I’m a former racer and a veteran of watching F1 for approaching 50 years , my point of almost throwing in the towel as a modern F1 fan, was when Hamilton didn’t get a full race ban and points on his licence after knowingly nearly killing Verstappen at Stowe corner in silverstone. This was the real let down this year, particularly as a neutral. If that incident hadn’t have happened at his home race the penalty would have been very different.

    On Abu Dabi, people seem to forget that Max still had a lot to do from behind, against the Faster Merc, with that experienced driver ahead , in the narrowest of windows and under severe scrutiny,.

    I for one was glad to see it unfold old style on track ! Notwithstanding Max nearly binning it coming onto the finishing straight within sight of the flag !!! Just like the Saudi qualifying mistake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    There are rules and they were followed. The race director used his discretion to get the last lap under green flag, something which all teams agreed beforehand would be preferable.


    The race director wouldn't have such a decision to make if Latifi didn't bin it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    MAYBE time. Maybe there was a need to make the safety car in decision by the time it reaches a certain point on the track otherwise the race finishes under SC and that was not what the teams wanted by all accounts.

    Other drivers have made statements about not wanting to get involved in the championship battle. So maybe that played a part in the decision that. Who knows



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    has anyone seen the video from Toto Wolff. What a load of nonsense. Toto mentions wanting the Abu Dhabi GP result reinstated from Lap 57 in the interest of sporting fairness. So a decision made by the race director within the rules should be scrapped because Merc didnt win. Lewis is disillusioned and feels betrayed.


    I really hope they get it badly wrong next season with the new regs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Just answer me these 2 questions:

    Is it normal to only unlap certain cars and not others?

    Is it normal to bring in the safety car on the same lap that the cars unlap themselves?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Well of they followed the rules (which you said you think they did) then the safety car would have come in the lap after they gave the order to unlap cars. But they broke those rules by bringing in the safety car on the same lap.

    If they wanted to get the race underway as quickly as possible and finish on the green flag then they would have unlapped no cars and brought the safety car in and had one lap of racing.

    If they wanted maximum showbiz drama, then they would take the unorthodox step of only unlapung the cars between max and Lewis, and then break the rule to bring in the safety car on the same lap. Which of these options did they choose?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,035 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 721 ✭✭✭glen123


    Considering the physical demands of F1, suddenly the F1 driver unable to bring his car to the pits because of a headache? With no previous health complaints during the course of the race? This will be enough for this to be decided against Merc considering the rest of the circumstances.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Ah, if they tried to so blatantly game the system then it would cause ructions. Its not just a sport or just a business or just an entertainment industry. It's a mix of all 3 elememts and it has to be kept in balance. Doing something shady like that might be fine in business and might be entertaining, but it would make a mockery of the sport element.

    The other teams wouldn't stand for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭weisses


    Lewis a 10 place grid penalty in Bahrein for not showing up at the F1 gala .... How hilarious would that be ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,025 ✭✭✭✭blade1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭weisses


    I agree it was stupid for them not to show up ... Breaking the rules have consequences



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Harika


    He is warming the tyres, zigzag zigzag loosing control. Stalled, game over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    To be fair, an off track punishment would be a more appropriate punishment for an action taken off the track like this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    The regs give the race director discretion to improvise or make judgement calls. Which he did, to get the race to finish under green flag conditions, which by all accounts was the preference agreed by everyone earlier in the week. So no, there was no rules broken.

    So no, there was no rules broken. The whining from Susie and Toto is ridiculous. They talk about sporting fairness and they are tone deaf Like Hamilton who was whinging about the red flag in Jeddah completely ignoring how much he had benefitted from them earlier in the season. Where is the cries for sporting fairness there?

    If Max stayed out and Hamilton pitted on Lap 53, and the race finished under SC then Merc would be screaming at the RD looking for a red flag and a count back to Lap 53.


    Looking at the SC lights going out, was T9 I think which gave those 4/5 cars half a lap to get clear for the green flag. Was there time to allow all lapped cars pass and bring the SC car in?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Like the off track punished dished out for on track offences at Jeddah?



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Honestly give it a rest man.

    Hamilton lives free in your head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    No, there wasn't time to follow the normal procedure to allow all cars unlap themselves and bring in the safety car he following lap. So when they were pressed for time they o erode the normal procedures and allowed only the cars between max and Lewis to unlap and then overrode the normal rules to bring in the safety car on the same lap.

    I think they didn't purely for the showbiz. Why do you think they did it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    There was time tho, the track was clear on lap 56 as evidenced by the radio comms from Alonso, Vettel and also between Bono and Ham. So they could have done it then but instead decided not to, only to change their minds a lap later resulting in only time for the front 5 back markers to unlap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    If there was no time, then why did they let any cars unlap themselves?

    They could have not unlapped any cars because they didn't have time. But instead they made the very unusual step of unlapping only the cars between Max and Lewis (which took more time than not unlapping any cars) and then took a second unusual step of bringing in the safety car on the same lap.

    If it was all about getting to green flag, then why do you think they took the additionally time consuming step of unlapping the cars between max and Lewis?

    I've said I think it was purely for showbiz. Why do you think they did it?

    Post edited by El_Duderino 09 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203



    I would guess that they had a point on the track in mind that if it was not viable to release some/all lapped cars and give notice of the SC ending then the race would finish under the SC. They had a window to release some cars by that point and released the cars they felt they could and then make the call to bring in the SC.


    I think Michael Masi made his decisions based on having a green flag finish and nothing else. His radio conversation with RB was along the lines of him focusing on getting the track clear if I'm not mistaken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    So do you think it was pure coincidence that they had time to unlap all the cars between max and Lewis, and no other cars? Nothing to do with the showbiz of the final lap shootout between the two title contenders?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    I didn’t say there was no time, there was enough time! On lap 56 the track was clear and for whatever reason the decision was made not to allow lapped cars overtake then, that decision in itself was very unusual in a safety car situation.

    Then a lap later they allowed 5 of the 7 lapped cars overtake. That’s a decision that should have been made a lap previously which would have likely meant all lapped cars could pass but, for some reason wasn’t! Maybe Toto and Horner wasted time by whining down the radio and unknowingly delayed things a bit? we’ll never know!

    Simple fact is what happened was unusual, but had the opposite happened and no lapped cars were allowed overtake, that would have been equally unusual!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Letting no cars unlap would have been unusual but it would have been consistent with your argument that there wasn't enough time to unlap everyone.

    So are you suggesting it was complete coincidence that there only enough time to unlap exactly all the cars between the championship contenders. Not just enough time for any fewer cars and no time for any more cars. Just time for all the cars between them, and it was pure coincidence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    If all had been let past, there would still be 90 percent Hamilton fans crying because he lost his gap to Verstappen under safety car.

    The safety car is part of the sport and a race leader is always at the mercy of a random safety car specially when stringing their tyres out to the end.

    Hamilton cheated at the start. If he had been ordered to let max back past before the safety car restart it might have been fairer but fortunately max was able to pass him anyway to return to the true position. Abit unfair on max but all ok in the end.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    There many “unusual” or “strange” decisions made throughout the entire season. The last decision suited Max the vast majority of the other decisions favored Lewis. If this decision is to be revisited then the other decisions over the season should be too. If each controversial decision was reviewed in an even handed manner then Max would have won the drivers championship by a far larger margin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,530 ✭✭✭tanko


    Well said, the same Lewis fanboys that are whining for the last week about the safety car are the same fools that said Hamilton shunting Max off the track at Silverstone was a racing incident and wasn’t intentional. I doubt they’ll ever get over it, it’s bloody hilarious.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I'm not a Hamilton fan. But the 2 safety car decisions are not normal. They were all about showbiz. That's all. I don't think it was a pro or anti Hamilton decision.

    I support max and I'm glad he won the championship. But the safety car decisions were very unusual. F1 is showbiz so it's probably fair enough that they make decisions for the entertainment.

    If the same safety car decisions helped Lewis and he won instead, then those lads would be furious with the decisions.

    Post edited by El_Duderino 09 on


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