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Formula 1 Round 22 Abu Dhabi GP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula


    Yes, if you think Abu Dhabi was the entire championship. He lost 7 points through bad luck there. He gained 18 points through similar good luck at Imola.

    The luck more than balanced out in Hamilton’s favour over the year but in the end Verstappen ended up the very deserving champion thanks to finally getting the rub of the green just one time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭thefa


    Bit misleading to suggest Max got the rub of the green once. Brake magic mitigated a disaster. Wouldn’t have been near to second only for the rain in Russia. Promotion to pole in Monaco. Sure there are more incidences of good fortune but those came to mind.

    I haven’t totted up the potential points impacts of the above and don’t care to or balance them against Max’s bad luck because I’m happy enough with the result and it’s a fair enough reflection of how tight it was between the two.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula



    They're all quite tenuous in fairness.

    Taking Monaco - Verstappen was on a purple lap and could have got pole if Leclerc hadn't hit the wall and caused a red flag, and it was that collision that broke Charles' car. It's a major assumption to say Leclerc would have got pole if he hadn't crashed, and that he would have won if he started the race. And Lewis inherited a position from Leclerc too so it's not like Verstappen gained much in the championship in any case.

    Taking Russia - it rained equally for everyone. Verstappen made the most of it and overtook a bunch of cars. Putting in a great performance on a slippery track isn't luck. Hamilton also gained points from the rain too when he inherited the lead after Norris went off, so again it had very little impact on the championship anyway.

    Taking Baku - Verstappen dominated for the entire race then his tyre exploded a couple of laps from the end without warning costing 26 points. Hamilton had been in third and made a mistake that was entirely his own fault and put himself out of contention. Surely you can't say Verstappen got lucky at that race?

    Like you said, none of it really matters now, but it'd be helpful if people like Lineker who use their platform to rile people up took account of the context of many other incidents through the season rather than pretending the Abu Dhabi safety car was the only time luck played a part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,810 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Lineker comments are disgraceful and designed to rile up the Brits.

    He could equally have have equated it to a football match where one team went 3 - 0 up firstly by having a couple of offside goals wrongly allowed but then lost the lead at the end cause they ran out of steam and couldn't cope with extra time that came about due to an unforeseen lucky late goal..... But that wouldn't get the Hamilton fans all pumped up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    The media in UK hyped this up as a title shoot out, so it was almost as if the previous 21 races didn't matter. The hype attracted a lot of attention from people who don't normally follow the sport that closely.


    Joe Molloy on OTB kept talking about how Hamilton should have lost his 11 second lead on Sunday as that was unfair, making out it was unfair on Hamilton etc. No mention of the other drivers who also lost out in the SC period on Sunday or the times Max or anyone else lost a lead under SC in the history of the sport. Its like this was the first ever SC.

    George Russell tweeted how what happened on Sunday was a disgrace yet his poor driving in Imola is directly responsible for Hamilton actually being in with a realistic shout on Sunday. That one gained Hamilton 2nd place and 18 points when realistically he would have finished 7th or 8th at best if Bottas and Russell didn't crash.

    The lads on OTB were Totally oblivious to Hamilton unlapping himself in Imola, or repairing damage/tyres under red flag (that he caused) Silverstone etc. Or Bottas wiping out Max at Hungary via Norris(?). They were fixated on one incident with 2 laps to go in race 22.

    Bahrain is another race were Max was very unlucky. Hamilton was running wide at T4 for half the race but as soon as Max was told about it they imposed track limits. Hamilton probably gained 0.2 seconds a lap which was approx 5-6 seconds. That's 5-6 seconds Max shouldn't have had to make up to catch Hamilton after his pit stop meaning he would have had more opportunities to make the pass stick.


    As for Baku, when Max had his tyre issue, Wheatley was on the radio to Masi "we had no prior warning, red flag so everyone can change tyres". Mark Webber called that "very fair" on comms. The was a race that could have finished under the SC gifting Checo a win but Red Bull wanted proper racing.

    In Abu Dhabi when Gio parked up, Toto was screaming at Masi not to throw a SC.

    Merc had 7 seasons basically unchallenged and when they had it put upto them they didn't like it at all. There is a real sense of entitlement from them which kinda makes Toto's statement on DTS last year about doing their talking on the track look about as sincere as most of the stuff Hamilton comes out with.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭thefa


    Azerbaijan - Forget Max’s blowout - it’s already happened and he’s out of the race. Lewis is one of the best drivers of all time and forgot to press a button. Far from a stretch to suggest good fortune from Max’s POV hence my brake magic mitigating blowout reference.

    Monaco - Verstappen wasn’t the only one to go (off the top of my head Sainz) and had no guarantee of finishing the lap orpole. Even if he does, as you mention, it might not lead to a win but may be difficult to argue that it’s not an advantage nor mind at Monaco! To state the obvious too, the jump in points from 2nd to 1st is better than plus one on any other position. Fact is LeClerc qualified pole and it was good luck to be promoted to 1st for the start which gives you the best shot at the win.

    Russia - the element of luck clearly was the rain occurring (not wet driving ability) which led to the period of uncertainty for tyre choice which some like Verstappen were able to take advantage of. No rain, Hamilton still has a chance of a win as was closing on Norris but Vertsappen was nowhere near the podium.

    Saudi - anyone who is found at fault for causing contact while brake testing someone while managing not to end their race or their opponents (harsher penalty) and only collecting an inconsequential penalty may have had a slight rub of the green too.

    Those are a few examples. You’d have to watch as much F1 as Lineker to think Max’s only rub of the green was in Abu Dhabi!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Susie Wolff pushing the Lewis was robbed angle on Instagram and accused FIA of cheating and lacking integrity

    I



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,346 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    Don't listen to OTB, but if you're fronting a sports programme, get all facts before spouting nonsense.

    However I think the likes of Hamiltons vocal stance on some issues appeals to the likes of OTB, Lineker etc. And then they nail the colours to the mast when they feel their hero has been hard done by.

    Basically they're blinkered by wokeism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Please, if Mercedes-Benz were that corrupted they would have told Bottas to stop the car on track once the lap cars message came up.

    This too shall pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Nobody is saying max hasn't had things go his way, but Hamilton had huge slices of good fortune which bagged him huge points over what he should have got compared to Max. Imola and Silverstone spring to mind.


    In 2018 at Paul Ricard, Vettel hit Bottas and eventually finished ahead of him. Hamilton complained about the penalty being too soft and how you shouldn't be able to finish ahead of a driver you take out. So by his own logic he should have trundled around in last place at silverstone.


    Ultimately the unpredictable nature of Motor Sport gave us a finale which is what everyone is judging the season on. It's like the previous 21 races and the swings and roundabouts nature of it never happened.

    Take out the red flag in Imola and Hamilton finishes say 7th. 6 points. That means he is 12 behind on Sunday at the start. So the most meaningful gains both drivers made under red flag/SC actually have a 5 point swing in Hamiltons favour.


    But Lewis was robbed is the narrative and Susie Wolffs comments on Social media are further evidence of the entitlement feeling at Mercedes.


    Hopefully Alpine, McLaren and Ferrari have it together for 2022 along with Red Bull and we get a proper battle all season long



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,527 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980




  • Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Suzie Wolff's statement - although it's her own it surely aligns with the thinking of Toto and Mercedes. And it hints at the eventuality that Mercedes will push for - changes in the governing body.

    Realistically they can't push for a change in the results of the race, what's done is done. They will make a lot of threats and then offer to withdraw them if Masi gets the sack, and probably some broader changes to race control.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,576 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    Boardroom in Stuttgart were on the blower to Toto.

    They have the constructors championship and that’s the most important one to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula


    As predicted, once Mercedes came to the inevitable conclusion that they didn't have a leg to stand on legally in their attempt to steal the championship off track, they're now waging PR war, something that they've been very adept at with the sycophantic British media all year.

    Toto has lobbied the FIA to do his bidding with great success this year (and for the whole hybrid era for that matter), so the thought of Mercedes pushing for even more control over the governance of the sport just because a safety car call didn't go their way for once is scary for anyone who wants to see a fair sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,576 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    Being pedantic here but they didn’t congratulate Max outright on being Champion. Just acknowledge his achievements.

    Ah well, I doubt he cares too much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula


    Amanda Newey (wife of Adrian) posted up a very dignified response to all of Mercedes' smear tactics on Instagram.

    To say I’m proud of world champion. @maxverstappen1, my husband, @christianhorner@schecoperez@alex_albon, and all the team trackside and in Milton Keynes @redbullracing is an understatement. The commitment, dedication, and sacrifices they have made personally to family time are enormous. @maxverstappen1 as world champion is something I’ve been waiting a long time to see. Statistically, Max led 652 laps of the 2021 season. Lewis led 303. Max led the championship for 15 of the 22 races, over two-thirds of the season! Max had 18 podiums. Max suffered 3 DNF’s (Silverstone, let's not go there) from the front row. He had an average finishing position of 1.89 to Lewis’ 2.80 and had 10 poll positions. I'm not a stranger to sport and controversy, having worked all my life in sport and at an elite level. Lewis and Mercedes put up an extraordinary fight, and congratulations to them on winning the constructors.

    There are many pinpoints in the season where it swung, and arguably the FIA made loads of questionable decisions whichever camp your loyalties lie. A few rules need to change, like the engine penalties as an example. Would I want to be Michael Massi? No. In this final race for once, luck and clever strategy and some extraordinary driving at a critical point fell—Max’s way. No Red bull is not in cahoots with the FIA, and if you look at the season objectively, as a whole, you will see that. Haters are going to hate. But @maxverstappen1 is a worthy world champion. Congratulations 🎉


    [please remember there are being human beings behind all of this, in a world where we can be anything, let's all be kind]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    I'd be more concerned that they didn't congratulate their own people on a record 8th Constructors until a footnote at the very end of the statement. I hope there was better internal communications because if I was a factory worker there and that was all the thanks I got, I'd be polishing the CV and brushing up on my Italian.

    This too shall pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭Anjobe


    Smear tactics? Which Instragram account are you following, you know the one with the little blue tick beside it is the real one, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    We've already been down that slippery slope before when Fontana in the Sauber-Ferrari held up Villeneuve to help Schumacher at Jerez in 1997. Gets forgotten about because of what happened later in the race.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    And this is the bit relative newcomers to F1 are struggling with, saying Masi changed the rules on first stopping cars unlapping and then allowing them.

    It simply wasn't safe to let them unlap while marshalls were on the track, and once they were gone, then it was safe. Nothing to do with rule changes, everything to do with safety.

    The safety car should be left out as long as possible to get track cleared of debris and marshalls but no longer. Leaving it out for the final lap made no sense as the track was cleared.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,413 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Regulations say after providing the message for lapped cars to unlap, the safety car will come in at the end of the following lap.

    The safety car came in at the end of the same lap. Had it followed regulations, the race ends under safety car and Hamilton wins the race and title.

    For the safety car to come in on the lap it did, the lapped cars should have been left where they were - which would have put 5 cars between Hamilton and Max - Max still would have had a great chance of catching and passing, but not as easy as it was made for him by mangling the rules as Masi did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭thefa


    That was exactly what I was debating actually! Quoted the relevant posts previously where it basically suggested that Abu Dhabi was Max finally getting the some luck.

    Max was unstoppable for certain parts of the year and I can definitely see why his consistency deserved it (besides obviously get the points) but Hamilton was justifiably in contention at the end of the season too. As you mention, plenty of swings and roundabouts over the full 22 races but you get opinions coming out from individuals with vested interests, framing it to whatever way suits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,527 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    That regulation never applied in this case as it can only come into effect if all cars have been told to unlap themselves. This message was never sent out so 48.12 never applied.

    48.12: If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

    The message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" was never sent to all cars so it never applied.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula


    The regulations say that the clerk of the course will call the safety car in as soon as it is safe to do so, and that his discretion is final. It was certainly safe to do so and had been for over a lap. The teams also unanimously agreed that races should be ended under green flags where possible, so this is the overriding priority where two rules conflict with each other in certain circumstances. It's similar about how the rule about going off track can conflict with the rule about not pushing someone off track - they have to make a judgment call about which is more important and in this case they chose the one that all the teams had unanimously agreed in advance was more important.

    And, as was pointed out previously, the marshalls were off the track once the train passed on lap 56 so there was time to let the lapped cars to go at that point, which is why many drivers from other teams who had nothing to do with the championship battle were on the radio confused about why lapped cars hadn't been let past yet like they normally are. If they'd been a little quicker off the mark on this then they would have fulfilled all the minutiae that Mercedes have clung on to, and it would have resulted in exactly the same outcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    Mercedes have withdrawn their appeal. Great news for all involved and a line can be drawn under what myself and others consider a fake controversy.

    Congrats to Max. And there's definitely a need to both clear up rules or communicate them better to the occasional F1 fan who was left confused by what happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula


    Weighing up the possibility of being beaten by George Russell and the possibility of Mercedes being less dominant under the new regs no doubt.

    I wonder who'd be on their radar if he does quit. Would be amazing to see Piastri get the drive, not sure how airtight his reserve driver contract with Alpine is. De Vries is the more obvious choice I guess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,259 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I had the opinion that this was Hamiltons clear last chance at the 8th. Russel represents the future for Merc, he is young and has more racing years left in him. Merc would be equally happy with a championship with whatever driver is in the car, like they were with Rosberg.

    Not saying Hamilton has no chance, but this was very much the best one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭quokula


    I was pretty surprised earlier in the season when they announced that Russell was joining the team to be honest, I expected Lewis to insist on Bottas being there for the remainder of his career. The last time Lewis had a team-mate other than Bottas he was beaten, and you'd expect George to be at least as good as Nico was.



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  • Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes, the fact that he did not allow cars to unlap themselves until that moment is not unusual at all. You could say the communication was unusual (or misleading) if it implied that they would never unlap themselves.

    The thing that was unusual was what followed - some cars unlapping themselves and not others. It's never happened before. And the safety car coming in so suddenly was highly irregular also. This is surely what the investigation will focus on. He's going to be asked how he decided which cars should unlap themselves and which shouldn't.

    I can't think of an answer that doesn't get him the sack.



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