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Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,642 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    I have anecdotally heard, that for some reason, in certain places, the HSE are double booking people for booster appointments and not cancelling the second when informed to do so by the attendees.

    Thus, the already boostered folk are considered no shows, because they didn't show up for a scheduled appointment they tried to cancel.



  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Do you have any evidence that the vaccines do not reduce catching/spreading of covid? Sounds like conspiracy talk to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    We know it reduces the chance of you catching it and reduces the chance of you spreading it. Can't spread what you didn't catch.

    Also the active ingredient is 1/3rd the regular dose, so you would only get 2 boosters from a vial.

    Best I can see it will help lower the spread in kids (0-12 make up 25% of daily cases and that % is growing week on week)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭ACitizenErased


    They're different than the boosters, it's a lower dose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Many high profile studies have been posted in this thread and you've read/replied to these posts.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Great fodder for the paranoid among us who'll no doubt believe it "convenient" that a booster is required against Omicron.

    Boosters were in play long before omicron. The vaccine evasion is centred around antibodies(which seems to be the obsession around measuring waning effectiveness). Lower antibodies = higher risk of symptomatic infections, but antibodies are just one part of the immune system and they always wane after any vaccination or infection(which has long surprised me that this came as a surprise). However the B and T immune memory cells who produce antibodies when required and recognise previous infections/vaccines and are what help reduce the risks of serious illness and death, they hang around, even grow over time as borne out by studies of Pfizer and J&J(up to 8 months in the latter). They also track more of the viral structure so makes it harder for a virus to evade. Put it another way; if you were vaccinated against or caught measles as a kid, good luck in finding high levels of antibodies to measles in your blood, yet if you were exposed to it today your body would kick its arse. Same for polio, or chickenpox. Now how long this "memory" hangs around varies so measles is essentially for life, but tetanus is more like a decade, but that memory is down to the B and T lads.

    In Israel these cells in the elderly were seen to drop off over time, again hardly unexpected as the old don't produce as many or hang onto them for as long as the young, so it made and makes good sense to boost the elderly and other vulnerable groups to get those levels and antibody levels back up, because their death rates started to climb again. What I'm not seeing are the reasons to boost everyone else and get 5 year olds up vaccinated hunting antibody levels when they're at a very small to tiny risk of serious illness and death. Now if we see a spike in hospitalisations and death in the prevously vaccinated last year under the age of say 50 then OK, but I've not seen of any evidence of that. Indeed the opposite seems to be the case and again before Omicron and boosters were in play. Hospitalisations and deaths are way down on previous waves and society is much more open because of the vaccines and around half(depending on who you read) in hospitals and graves are the completely unvaccinated.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Looking at some of the data from the 5-11 trials, it seems like a different dose may be more appropriate for adolescents, might be something worth looking at, but they may not now.

    In short, the adult dose is 30ug. The first stage of the 5-11 trials included the use of 30ug dose, a 20ug dose and a 10ug dose. They found an increased incidence of reported fever in the 30ug group than the other two.

    They also found that the 10ug dose generated a sufficiently strong response in phase 1 trials, that they were happy to go ahead with that one for the second phase.

    Overall the amount of adverse events was very small, and none of the serious. About a third of kids had a bit of tiredness or a headache. The most serious outcome was a single incident of a fever of 40c lasting less than a day.

    Since there's a relationship between fever/immune response and pericarditis, it seems possible that a smaller dose (20ug?) for adolescents (12-16), or maybe some bodyweight calculation, would be beneficial in reducing the incidence of these events.

    Report here: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116298

    Aside, one bit I found amusing, and if there was ever a question about how thorough these studies are, this surely dispels it:

    Three serious adverse events in two participants were reported by the cutoff date; all three (postinjury abdominal pain and pancreatitis in a placebo recipient and arm fracture in a BNT162b2 recipient) were considered to be unrelated to the vaccine or placebo.

    😂



  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You were cherry picking lines out of a paper, not actually analysing the paper as a whole.



  • Posts: 8,532 [Deleted User]


    Again I'd ask where the logic is in giving kids a vaccine that doesn't really offer them or society as a while any real protection.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I love how you consider a study in the effects of any medicine to be thorough when:

    During the phase 1 study, a total of 48 children 5 to 11 years of age received 10 μg, 20 μg, or 30 μg of the BNT162b2 vaccine (16 children at each dose level)

    Conducted over two months on only forty eight test subjects. Just sixteen at each dosage level. And a "study" with that tiny a sample size is now passed as a good one? You have got to be having a laugh.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭Lucas Hood


    So have we gone from being terrified of Omicron for it now to be somewhat of a good thing with it being suggested that it is likely less severe than Delta but more transmissible.??


    That's what we would have wanted right a less severe variant that's more transmissible so that it becomes the dominant strain?



  • Posts: 8,532 [Deleted User]


    Hmm not what we are being told though. Anytime some points to the fact that we were told that the vaccines were our way out of this and we would open fully once we had them administered they are quickly put back in their box and told that the vaccines don't stop you from spreading Covid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    That's the phase 1 part of the trial, which is just the initial phase to establish the appropriate parameters for the next one. It's a sanity check to ensure that they don't inject a couple of thousand people with something that's dangerous. Instead you inject 48 of them and if anyone experiences anything serious, you stop and go back to the drawing board.

    The second phase had 2,300 participants, which is slightly above average size for a typical clinical trial.



  • Posts: 10,049 [Deleted User]


    None of which showed that vaccines dont reduce spread. And all of which showed massive reduction in spread in the first few months after vaccination



  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Having worked in paediatrics, it's incredibly hard to get large scale triple blinded trials past an ethics committee. Hence, why most medications for children are unlicensed. It's good that there are some studies done to research side effects efficacy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    Doctor on radio said young children have a 1 in 3000 chance of getting seriously I'll grom covid when they were announcing the vaccines for children.

    Anyone know if this is true?



  • Posts: 10,049 [Deleted User]


    Denziens of this thread of course being better judges than multiple regulatory agencies.

    And of course the selected section was only the Phase 1 data. The report goes on to descibe phase 2/3 and concluded that it was similar to that in other humans. You would swear children were a different species the way some go on.

    As compared with adults and adolescents in the pivotal trial, 5-to-11-year-olds reported a higher incidence of injection-site redness (15 to 19%, vs. 5 to 7%) and swelling (10 to 15%, vs. 5 to 8%), but a generally lower incidence of systemic events, including fever (3 to 7%, vs. 1 to 20%) and chills (5 to 10%, vs. 6 to 42%).3,4 Lymphadenopathy was reported in 0.9% of 5-to-11-year-old BNT162b2 recipients, an incidence similar to that in 12-to-15-year-olds (0.8%)

    Neither myocarditis nor pericarditis was observed, a finding consistent with the low frequency of these adverse events with real-world use of BNT162b2 in other age groups



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The second phase had 2268, with 1518 actually getting the vaccine, the rest placebo.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,255 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Maybe if The Labour Party actually had some policies other than gender neutral toilets the Tories could be removed from power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,296 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Catch mumps as a five year old, catch mumps as a thirty year old. Get back to me. You can take a couple of aspirin no bother, the under twelves can be risky. Children and adults can vary quite a bit in responses to meds and illnesses.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    That's correct. The number of participants in phase 2/3 was 2,268.

    Which is slightly above the average size (2,000) for phase 2/3 of a clinical trial.



  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Aspirin isn't recommended in children due to risk of Reye's Syndrome which you are quite right, however first line treatment for mumps is symptomatic control is paracetamol/ibuprofen. Hence why small scale trials can be beneficial for purposes of novel therapies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭floorpie


    No, I'm very good at analysing papers and understanding the relevant parts. You might have noticed that all of the "cherry picked" lines I've focussed on have later become the main concerns re: the response to COVID-19.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Overall the amount of adverse events was very small, and none of the serious.

    There's a reason for this, if you look at their discussion on sample size



  • Posts: 10,049 [Deleted User]


    That's why a study of well over 2,000 subjects, not 48, was conducted, and established that the pattern was the same.

    Mumps also being a virus with a vaccine which requires a booster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭Spiderman0081


    About 90% of the people in Ireland will tell it’s science, not logic.



  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So is there a paper out there which has reached the conclusion that being vaccinated does not reduce the spread of covid? You had one data set which was taken out of context of the whole paper. If I remember correctly, you disagreed with the conclusion of the paper. Surely, somebody would have followed up on this pretty relevant information that vaccines in no way stop the spread of covid?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭floorpie


    I disagreed with the conclusions because the authors failed to reach statistical significance with any tests they performed. This isn't cherry picking; it is common for intros and conclusions to not highlight such failures, in order to get increase the chances of being published. It is common too for peer reviewers and laypeople to be fooled by narrative intros and conclusions (very common in this thread). But nevertheless, these papers failed to show any effectiveness with regard to transmission or infection. That doesn't mean they aren't effective, but if large studies can't reach significance then it's quite strong evidence that they aren't.

    So is there a paper out there which has reached the conclusion that being vaccinated does not reduce the spread of covid? 

    You wouldn't do this. You'd instead fail to show that they do reduce the spread, and this is what they found.



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  • Posts: 10,049 [Deleted User]


    I must admit you are very good at analysing papers and understanding the parts relevant to supporting your position while systematically ignoring anything that challenges your base assumptions



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