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EU Proposal on calf transportation. NO MOVE UNDER 35DAYS

135

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Market sets the price, there's nothing wonderful about our food that we can get above the local produce prices in a country, I've seen our produce in foreign supermarkets and the local stuff being picked up in preference



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Delivering value for shareholders in big agri business like Greencore et al is not the same as getting better margins for farmers. Of course the likes of Larry et al are delighted with getting low cost quality product and getting state agencies to promote their business model for free across the world...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭green daries


    That's a great post and one that teagac et Al should have been thinking about when they were pushing the expansion Idea



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler



    It's promoting the industry, market dictates price, we've often entertained foreigners here for Bord Bia.

    As long as they're promoting the product they're doing their job, you might have something to complain about if product was getting backed up, but it's all being sold



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Here's a graph of the last few years beef price, there's no difference in the EU beef price and Irish.

    Irish beef in UKis not going to make as much as UK beef ,It'd even make less if it was labelled as Irish



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    If you see by the graph the irish price is often ahead of the EU price,

    I was in europe numerous times when the Irish price was more than the country I was in. If you're not happy with the EU price you probably shouldn't be producing beef



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭DBK1


    From what I see of that graph it’s comparing the Irish and Uk price of steers to the European average for young bulls?

    Maybe I’m reading it wrong so I’m open to correction on that but if that’s the case then using that graph as a reference point for anything is about as much value as second hand toilet paper.

    Put the price of Irish bulls on it and see how the comparisons are then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Young bulls in europe are better than the irish bulls, any that I have seen in europe would be E and U grade, no comparison,and even if there was E grade bulls here there wouldn't be enough to create a viable supply. Irish bulls would be very poor compared to European, Europen would be mostly purebreds

    That graph is probably the best comparison for prime beef



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Europeans like lighter coloured beef, we supply rich red beef, I've seen it myself in supermarkets, this anaemic beef being picked ahead of the irish beef. Irish labelling doesn't help either, ICM have a factory in belgium now purely I'd say that they can label the lamb as Belgium, The label they use is 'Celtic Lamb' so they can supply it from other than Ireland



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭DBK1


    I’m not saying that I either agree or disagree with what you’re saying about Bord Bia, I’m only saying that a graph comparing 2 entirely different products to make it look like we’re ahead of the European price is bullsh**e!

    Why don’t they base it on heifers so? Or use all steers, or all dry cows or basically anything you like so long as it’s the same product?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Ask yourself would you buy foreign beef in preference to your own, well, it's the same across europe, you'd need a damn good discount to consider it, I wouldn't like to be trying to sell it, it's only a commodity in any other country used in catering, burgers, etc. I've even seen it thrown around in tesco , There's no comparison in selling english beef in england and selling Irish beef in england.

    If you want to compare like with like that's what you should look at. I'd always check out supermarkets when I'd be travelling, it wouldn't encourage you, French sheep farmers were getting at least a euro/kilo more than Irish sheep farmers yet Irish lamb had only 25% or less of the shelf space in french supermarkets.... if it was selling well it'd get a lot more of the shelf space



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭DBK1


    I don’t dispute a single word you’ve said there. I purposely didn’t state my thoughts on Bord Bia until now as it was irrelevant to the original point I was making about the graph you linked to.

    I agree with 99% of what you’re saying about Bord Bia. From memory I think the running costs of Bord Bia is about €75 million. There are about 1.8 million cattle, 2.8 million sheep and 3.8 million pigs slaughtered in Ireland every year. Add in live exports and and figures for any other enterprise Bord Bia covers and divide it up per ton of meat or whatever way you like and I’d estimate it’s about €20 per beef animal to cover Bord Bia’s costs.

    I have no doubt that we would be a hell of a lot more than €20 per beef animal worse off without the advertising and promotional campaigns of Bord Bia so in my opinion they are certainly giving us a better return than we would achieve without them.

    But none of that changes my original point on the graph you linked too. It is comparing 2 different products. It would be the same as comparing the price of heifers to the price of cows, pointless because they are 2 different products. A true price comparison would compare 2 identical products.

    Edit to add; My figures and calculations are from memory and my head so I’m open to correction on any of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    Irish beef was always held in the highest regard in France…until the angus beef fiasco.

    All the ‘workers’ restaurants were using Irish beef exclusively. Outside the door on the menu board they used to have a big sign saying that all beef was Irish. The amount of meat used in those restaurants is massive, and mostly the poorest cuts also. Losing the French market was a major fcuk up…then again us Paddies aren’t happy until we’re pulling some sort of a fast one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭alps




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Jrx been "doctored" as aax on the blue card....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    You can build your own graph based on heifer price here on page 3 of 4, when I did it EU price and Irish prices were very close. Irish being a bit ahead



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    As Jay said, selling jerseys as angus. When tests were carried out on ‘Irish Angus’ beef it was found to have no Angus in it whatsoever…but loads of dairy farmers were able to get their jex calves off as angus, so all good.

    There was quite a furore at the time. McDonalds are even using French Angus now, in fact the AA breed is all the rage now with a lot of farmers abandoning the native breeds to produce French Angus. Imported Irish bred Angus are not wanted as breeding stock because, I suppose, of the lack of credibility in Irish producers. Funny how that fiasco wasn’t reported in Ireland while it made big news in Europe…green washing is fine until you get called out on it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Just typical, is that where the DNA tagging came from?

    said farmers should of been penalised, why do we tolerate the bad ones throwing us all under the bus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭alps


    Criminal offence...

    Should have have been sent back through our accreditation system and the purpotrators charged...

    Zore tolerance for that xhyte...some damage done to genuine farmers..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,960 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Still going on. I saw a few lot of Friesian down as AA. This was not one in a bunch but a full bunch of 5-6. Auctioneer highlighting it as well.

    They made enough as well for Friesians. I cannot understand as I would not get the bonus on th if I had them

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭alps


    Seems like there was a sting in the tail for the breeders as well 😅




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Because they had powerful friends helping in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    Just as well it isn’t a criminal offense or the majority of xbred farmers would be doing a stint inside.

    I remember at the time that the Germans were in the same boat with tests showing angus meat to be as low as 6% pure.

    The French are a knowledgeable society of meat consumers that demand honest labeling and genuine produce. It’ll be a long time before Irish meat will be held in the same regard as before…and it’s Irish farmers are to blame, not Larry et al.

    We get a spot inspection about twice a year where dna is tested from ear cartilage. The fine for declaring the breeding incorrectly is €3300 for the first one…I don’t know how much for the second offense. All I can say is that it works very well indeed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭mr.stonewall


    That is a fine scheme, would be interesting to implement in Ireland. Surely the fine would have to be applied to farm of birth. A random sample taken at 6months of 1-2% of all births at annually would give a good picture of what is happening.

    At 2.3 million calves this would leave 23,000 to 46000 samples to be taken. It's only a drop in the ocean compared to the BDGP Genomics. Secondly it would only require less on the profile.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Good loser


    The slaughter/killing of calves is the best way of all to reduce our cattle numbers, which is exactly the measure needed for climate change targets for farming. The Dept should be tasked with buying up (in the market as cheaply as possible) 200/300 or 400,000 calves per annum and 'putting them to sleep'. Or put the job out to tender. It should cost no more than €60m per annum.

    The story should be 'You want reduction in numbers - this is the way to go.' Climate change cannot be cost free. I see no reason ANY/EVERY farm organisation would not support this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    What is the issue with stopping calves under 35 days from being moved, is it because the veal system needs them younger?

    35 days is only a month old calf, surly the Dairy farmers aren't gone that tight fisted to feed them for the month



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,960 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    A good few of the Co-op's and and a lot of there high value customers have already indicated that they will not tolerate this. The Bobby calf set up in NZ is under pressure. If dairy farmers can live with a milk band of 25-30c/K then that fine. If you want a decent price for milk then this is not an option

    I do not know why people suggest scenario's that are not compatible with modern ethics and sensibilities.


    It's not so much the cost of feeding. That is the small part. The flawed thinking around expansion where ''the calf was not taught about or factored into the equation'' by either the co-op or the advisory agencies is becoming a bigger issue every year.

    The big problem is facilities and labour. If you can dump calves off the farm at an average of 14 days it's reduced the cost of both of the above. Your calf rearing shed can work 3 timeslots of calves. It's especially an issue on larger units where there is over 100 cows and labour is hired in. Big difference between managing your replacement heifers and half that amount of other calves to having facilities for every calf that is born on the farm

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭farmerphil135


    just on the breeding off british fresians, as a dairy beef farmer i much prefer HO breed calves over FR bred calves. the HO on average weigh much better but you loose a grade ie. o= to o-. but the price difference in grades dosent cover the difference in weight.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Good loser


    'They will not tolerate this' you say.

    That mindset will have to be changed. I have absolutely no problem with it and rationally there can be no objection to it. Luckily animals are not rational.

    Plenty calves are killed quite young at present; veal calves only live 4/5 months anyway. Sentiments must be changed with Climate Change the driving factor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    Pure genius.

    Toyota have a factory in Valenciennes where they make Yaris cars for the European market. 10000 employees and therefore an important employer in that area.

    Why couldn’t they crush those new cars as they exit the factory? Win, win. Better for the environment/climate and Toyota get to produce cars away like before?

    Pure genius.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,960 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Well if you think you can change the mind set of over a billion people in the area where our customers supply. They are not going to damage that market.

    Like I said in my previous post ''I do not know why people suggest scenario's that are not compatible with modern ethics and sensibilities''

    There is a prayer

    ''God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

    courage to change the things I can,

    and wisdom to know the difference.''

    In this case it's an unwinnable battle even if we wanted to win it a d Most can see no reason for it. Any business model has to accept there are costs in that model you have to accept

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Theirs a small tiny 1% minority that'll you'll find on twitter, board etc that ideologically fit the above description the other 99% couldn't give a flying f**k..

    Any co-op with a small bit of sense could start a world food bank program providing third world countries with baby formula etc, plaster this on your milk cartoons etc and any bad press re Bobby calves would soon be forgetten



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,960 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    P&O gave up carrying calves on the Landbridge because of negative publicity regarding calf transport. The reason export is going is because of welfare issues. If we cannot f@@king export calves in 2-5 years WTF makes you think you can put a slaughter scheme in place for 2-400k calves. Wake up and smell the coffee.

    On African charity or any other questions thing you want to call it. The safest thing for babies is Brest feeding, any concerted program planned from your suggestion would backfire with negative publicity. Baby food and hygiene is a huge issue in poorer countries.

    Actually baby formula is more a second world issue than first or third world. In first world mother get parental leave to Brest feed, in third world most women do. It second world working women that buy infant formula so they can go back to work

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭LawBoy2018




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Kiwi farmers are allowed why can't the paddies do it, given we are actually receiving lower milk prices then them, your argument that woke vegan twitter warriors will shut it down doesn't hold water, why is humane bull calf slaughter for food, unethical but slaughtering lambs is perfectly fine



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭memorystick


    Is there any possibility of rearing calves in Ireland for the veal trade? Plenty of lads have a great set up for such an enterprise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    The industry here has enough issues to be dealing with without further toxic associations with the NZ "Dirty Dairy" model. Plus there is a world of difference between lambs reared for several months outdoors and bobby calves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,960 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    No. Our calf births are too condensed. The big veal producers take our calves because they are cheap and provide competition for that period of the year. However exporting can struggle as s lot more dairy farmer's want to sell at 14 days and are willing to take the hit on price

    Post edited by Bass Reeves on

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    This is a very disturbing view from a fellow dairy farmer .I can see a very bleak future for dairy in Ireland if this ideology of pumping out milk at all costs and dairy farmers wonder why they get bad press



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    Its illegal to kill newly hatched male chicks in France…imagine, just imagine, the uproar if it was suggested to kill newborn calves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    What other solutions are their? If co-ops go the arla route where no calf born on farm can be slaughtered before 8 weeks of age, then they are going to have to compensate their suppliers for the financial hit in building calf sheds to accommodate these calves and then the real prospect of giving them away at the 8 weeks if larry and Co faced with a wall of cattle year in and out knowing they have a guaranteed supply, will pay prices that the Brazilians wouldn't even be happy with.....

    All of the above complimented with soaring input costs realistically means the beef man mighten even take the calves at 8 weeks, so they'll be going for slaughter anyways....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭alps


    There is a genuine food outlet for these calves.

    The welfare concern comes from the worry that these calves aren't looked after properly at birth, and for their subsequent time.

    They can be neglected..

    But what if this was properly regulated, calves cared for like all others, and a genuine market demand for the the meat...???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    I thought a calf could be sold without it being a "movement" once it is under a certain age, so while it could not be exported it still could be sold on to a calf rearer or even a calf exporter who would hold the calf until it was 35 days old



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    I can’t believe that I am reading this crap. Are dairy farmers such greedy bastaards that there is nothing that they will not try to justify ?

    Talk about giving the vegans a stick to beat all farmers with. If there is no market for these calves they should not be bred .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭DBK1


    The other solution is to breed proper stock like what was done for generations in Ireland and get away from the jersey and Holstein rubbish that’s being bred now. Go back to British friesian cows crossed with white heads, Angus, Charlaois, Simmental etc. Then your calves will be worth rearing and you’ll have plenty of customers for them.

    Yea you’ll take a bit of a hit on your milk production but stay at the sh**e dairy farmers are at now and you’ll have to take the hit on the cost of building facilities to keep your calves for 7 or 8 weeks and maybe give them away for nearly nothing then just to get them out of the yard.

    The choice would be up to you as to which option suits you best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭alps


    There is a market, a very genuine market....you're not reading properly..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 739 ✭✭✭valtra2


    So dairy farmers don't want to rear the calf and don't want to give them away cheap in case someone else might just make something on them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭DBK1


    Well said GNWoodd.

    Lads need to realise as well that this is a public forum and coming up with rubbish like going down the Bobby calf route could well be used as that stick in the future.

    When it was suggested first on this thread I assumed it was sarcasm, I’d find it hard to believe there’s any farmer in Ireland that would think that’s a good idea.



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