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Author Alice Sebold apologises to man wrongly jailed for raping her

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭thefallingman




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k



    'You've never experienced this, therefore you don't deserve an opinion'... gimme a break. Really, that's just ridiculous. That's like saying 'You've never murdered someone, so you can't say murder is wrong'.

    She told quite a few lies, including allegations that he'd hired someone to hurt a friend. That was completely of her own doing. Again, I genuinely believe she was raped. That's not in question. No doubt in my mind.

    But she admitted, in her own book, to lying under oath. She didn't believe it was him, even picking the wrong person initially, and having doubts.

    As for bringing up her sexual past... by her own account, there wasn't any sexual partners. Her first sexual encounter was a rape. That's a horrifying thing to think of, but that's sadly what happened.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/alice-sebold-rape-and-redemption-107713.html

    There's an Oscar winning documentary called 'Murder on a Sunday morning'. It concerns a black teenager falsely accused of a robbery and murder. The police are pushing for a conviction, even bullying( nay torturing) the young guy into giving and signing a false confession. Lawyers fight to prevent his conviction. The police officers (diverse, including one black officer, who, by all accounts, was the worst. Literally punched the kid in the gut and said ''N-words' like you give us all a bad name') were out to get a conviction, despite him not looking anything like the accused (the correct person is finally tracked down and arrested. He makes an appearance at the end of the doc.)

    Even the husband of the victim is pushing for this teen to be the person-he's angry, wants someone to pay, despite him being innocent and not matching his own description that was given to the police. (For example, the clothing of the accused is a blank, tee-shirt. Whilst the person he claims shot his wife was wearing a very colourful, graffiti-like font tee-shirt.)

    The reason I bring up this documentary is because, frankly, two wrongs do not make a right. Ms Sebold was clearly wronged. But sending the wrong man to prison was not making it right (especially when she doubted he was the right person). And he still would be labelled as a sexual predator if not for someone doing the incredibly decent thing of looking into the case after finding discrepancies. They put their own money forward. They weren't going to profit from this (in fact, they lost money by doing this.). If they had gotten back the same result (as in he was guilty, as more evidence was unearthed) I'd be saying the same thing. Very decent of him to do-in that he now confirmed it was true, and thus Sebold was left with no doubts.

    Instead the case has gone cold. We know this guy is innocent, now. And all evidence relating to the case (including the rape kit) has been destroyed. As have the records. The real rapist, potentially, remains at large. Or, he may have raped other women, and served time for this. We don't know.

    And contrary to your opinion, I do genuinely pity her too. She never got justice. The man who violated her walked free. For all she knows she walked past him every day for the rest of her time in Syracuse. That's a horrifying thing to imagine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Did she build the prosecution case?

    Did she act as his defence?

    Was she the judge?

    No. She was a traumatised victim who made a bloody horrific mistake but she did not bring in a guilty verdict.

    Where was his defense team? Why are they not being vilified here?

    Who was the judge?

    Who was the prosecutor?


    What in that post you quoted states what happened at trial - most of it is a kangaroo court of the original rape victim and how its all her fault. Talk about being falsely accused. Reading that post it seems she brought in the guilty verdict all by herself.

    There were massive failures that robbed a man of years of his life. The justice system made the vast majority of those failures, but sure, lets pile all the blame on a traumatised young women who effed up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    You are asking questions that you already know the answer to, and you yourself answering said questions. Why?


    She lied following the trial in her book,so she profited off lias. The prosecution are of course to blame, but I'm talking about actions after the trial, and the fact that she lied under oath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Have you considered what was going on in the background that led her to lie?

    Did she just decide that all on her own or was she advised? Did the Prosecution know she lied as you put it? Did the Defense know she picked someone else out in the line out? Was she challenged at all?

    Her testimony was part of a body of evidence presented - not the whole of the case. She bared some responsibility absolutely. I am not denying that for a second. But people here should put away the bloody pitchforks and ask how can an innocent person be convicted on such flimsy evidence?



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    I've got no pitchforks out. I dislike somebody profiting off lies.


    As the poster above said: 'She told quite a few lies, including allegations that he'd hired someone to hurt a friend. That was completely of her own doing.' You have yet to comment on this aspect.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Poor guy. Of course rape is one of the worst things that can happen to someone, but this man's story is separate to that, and it kinda seems like it's being downplayed with the "they're both victims" thing. Separate situations. He's a victim of a gross miscarriage of justice - she isn't. That doesn't take away from what was done to her, but it's a different situation. I blame the prosecution mostly but you have to be so sure and certain before helping condemn someone to a prison sentence. Even if you're not thinking straight - well that doesn't cut it where possible lengthy jail time is concerned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭alastair_doom


    Do we know she made this stuff up, and it wasn't misinformation fed to her to encourage the prosecution?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do we know she didn't?

    Did she admit to lying under oath?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭alastair_doom


    For some reason I thought you mind actually be in favour of giving people the benefit of the doubt :)

    She may have been wrong in court but noone is suggesting it was deliberate attempt to deceive. No idea if she has made any statement since he was exonerated



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I read the section in her book dealing with the line-up out of interest..

    She claims, that it came down to two people in the line-up, one looking at the floor, the other looking out aggressively, and she quickly picked the aggressive one (they were only a foot away from each other on the opposite sides of the glass). Once she got out, she started to doubt her decision and then she was told she had been wrong but the one she picked, was actually a friend of the suspect brought in to mislead her, with a similar appearance and to purposely look like a bad guy. That it was another unfair defence tactic after having been questioned about what she was wearing, not allowing her to have someone from the rape crisis centre present during the lineup etc. This seems to be what what reinforced in her mind that Broadwater was really the guy, that they had tricked her and he was going to get away with it.

    Humans are not infallible in that regard, the judge and prosecution need to be impartial though, they need to see what's wrong here and didn't. One look at the lineup photo should have been enough to create doubt.

    There's a lot of other problems coming out of this too, did the real rapist go on to rape others? (seems very likely as he told her she was not his first victim)

    How many other innocent black men were convicted over the years based on weak evidence?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I haven't looked into it to be honest.

    If she admitted that she lied under oath, then I don't think she should get the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out the poster above who said she admitted it is wrong, I will revise my position.

    I can't look into whether or not she did admit to it as I am in work and most sites are blocked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 303 ✭✭Metroid diorteM


    I've followed this on other sites and have to laugh how women never seem to get the blame for false accusations.

    Now the narrative is, Oh it must have been those around the woman from the police force, lawyers, judge etc. who are to blame!

    Unbelievable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    That's what police do - worldwide.


    they can never ever admit to a mistake unless they are absolutely forced to do so.


    A report out a couple of years ago here said that if gardai simply made an apology when they got things wrong, most of the high court cases that are taken by people wrongly arrested / maliciously prosecuted would not be taken here.

    That would save a few million every year.


    Same everywhere. - Police will never admit when they are wrong and would prefer to see innocent people jailed rather than admit a mistake



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This woman didn't make a deliberate false allegation.

    And surely plenty of people are not denying her mess-up? E.g. on this thread alone.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,692 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Regarding the trial, it's not too much of a stretch for me to imagine the prosecution telling her they were certain even if she wasn't, they had some matching hair, there's no doubt he was the guy, and she was convinced and went along with it. They lied to her as well as everybody else. There's plenty of 'wrong' to go round in the trial, and some should be directed her way alright. But I'd be looking mainly at a prosecution who wanted a conviction more than the truth.

    Some of what she published in the memoir (apparently, i haven't read it) is worse in a way, if true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    "Once she got out, she started to doubt her decision and then she was told she had been wrong but the one she picked, was actually a friend of the suspect brought in to mislead her, with a similar appearance and to purposely look like a bad guy."

    The more I read this the more ridiculous it sounds.

    Does she tell anyone she is in doubt "once she go out" .......no. Horrible.

    "Similar appearance and purposely look like a bad guy." LOLZ. Purposely look like a bad guy? Did he have devil horns on or something?

    They made the friend out to look like the actual perp..........who was there! Why not just pick him if she was sure?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There is a substantial body of research demonstrating that eyewitnesses can make serious, but often understandable and even predictable, errors (Caputo & Dunning, 2007; Cutler & Penrod, 1995).

    Really it's the system that's broken if the system allows people to be sent to prison for decades based on evidence that contains understandable and predictable errors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭Fred Astaire


    She quite literally, deliberately, gave false testimony which was crucial in securing the guilty verdict.

    She said she was certain it was him shen she knew for a fact that she couldn't have been certain. She knew she couldn't have been certain because she couldn't pick him out of a lineup of just 5 people. That alone is proof that she couldn't be certain - but she took the stand anyway and said she was, because fcuk it - it was only somebodies life at stake if she was wrong.

    And then to compound it she told lies about him in her memoir which helped build her career.

    The police may have been guilty of trying to push him towards a guilty verdict but Seabold decided to do all of the above, willingly, and the result of that was an innocent man losing most of his life.

    Her response since the news broke, tells even more about her character (or complete lack of). A refusal to accept any responsibility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    She barred a lot of responsibility in fairness, including knowingly lying about the case. Perjury is a crime is it not?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    She has some responsibility, and I said so.

    Perjury is not a crime everywhere. How it is defined is not the same everywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    She didn't deliver the guilty verdict but if she told the truth.........that she wasn't 100% sure it was him...........then that leaves room for reasonable doubt and then it's unlikely a guilty verdict would have been delivered.

    If she wasn't sure, she should have said she wasn't sure.

    I do get that the cops probably put a lot of pressure on her but I'm not completely absolving her from some of the blame for this guy losing a large chunk of his life. She certainly has to take a chunk of the blame.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    The producer quit over the fact that in the movie they wanted to cast a white male as the rapist, the guys seems to be a stickler for accuracy and wasn't a fan of playing fast and loose with the facts of the case in it's portrayal. It seems he started looking into inconsistancies in the source material because he also suspected that itr had played as fast and loose with the facts as the movie production.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    "Ms Sebold, did you identify my client as part of a lineout?" - reasonable doubt right there.

    Look, I am not saying she has no responsibility. She absolutely has. And she took her time 'struggling' with her conscience before admitting she lied on the stand however there are posters here who seem to wish to present this appalling miscarriage of justice as all the fault of Sebold. It is not. The fault for the finding of a guilty verdict when there was enough evidence to cause reasonable doubt already available lies with justice system - prosecution, defence, and the supposed to be impartial judge. That is what I am responding to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    That's a fair point. But I feel want makes many uneasy is her subsequent profiteering off other lies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Great article on the guardian by the producer who helped in the exoneration. What he says, is what many of us here have been saying:

    'I do not believe that Sebold, as an 18-year-old rape victim, bears any blame. She was doing the best she could, being guided by an unethical and unscrupulous assistant district attorney. But I do have questions about the 39-year-old Sebold who wrote Lucky. Before she wrote the book, she had reviewed the entire district attorney’s file, including the photo of the police lineup.'

    What's also interesting is the example of where ultra-progressivism leads you, with a director wanting a white actor to play the rapist to make it seem like it was a white person who carried out the attack, a complete distortion of actual events.


    'such as the insistence of director Karen Moncrieff on changing the race of the actor playing Broadwater from a black actor to a white actor.

    Moncrieff’s reasoning was that she wanted to dispel the racial stereotype of a black man raping a white woman, but as the actual perpetrator had been African-American, this did not make sense to me'



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