General gaming discussion

30-11-2021 11:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243862#Comment_118243862

There are more than four markers. I checked. I'm honestly tired of discussing this game for the above reason I mentioned. An honest discussion is just impossible with this game.

No more BOTW talk for me.

pixelburp · 30-11-2021 11:33AM

Map Markers are something I vacillate over depending on what day of the week it is. But on average I'd probably reckon it's better to have less in open world games, without eschewing them altogether. BOTW had a nice balance I guess, where the Beasts (and brilliantly designed landscape) ensured you always had a rough guide to locations, albeit without excessive hand holding. But no, the game had no markers in the style of Skyrim, where you didn't even have to look up half the time. I lost count how many quests became crude "follow the dot" exercises.

Zero-Cool · 30-11-2021 11:42AM

As mentioned for Outer Wilds, I can't even imagine how tricky different v that game would be if it had map markers on where to go but i guess most AAA games have to spell everything out to reach the biggest audience.

I believe The Sinking City took a similar approach, but i never played it to confirm, where you investigate a crime scene, find clues and open your map to see where it sounds like they are pointing to before heading off in that direction. Not sure how well that plays out but sounds so much more interesting than just waiting for a dot appears and following that.

johnny_ultimate · 30-11-2021 11:43AM

The difference is simple for me.

In many open-world games, you reach a high point and the map automatically fills with a bunch of icons that tell you where to go. You'll get a little dotted line telling you the way if you need it.

In BotW, you reach a high point and you need to pull out your telescope and scan the area for points of interest that you must then go find your way to.

It's a fundamentally different approach to the same idea (scaling a high structure to get a vantage point of an area) that I think speaks to the bigger philosophical differences between the different ways of game design.

Retr0gamer · 30-11-2021 11:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243874#Comment_118243874

And you are probably right. Been a long time since I played it. Pretty sure it's mostly just marking stuff you've found already or shrines and korok seeds you've already completed. I just don't get what the point you are making is. Are you trying to infer that the game actually does play like every other open world game because it has a handful of map markers when it quite clearly doesn't? I mean I could correct myself and say there's no map markers except for stuff you've already found and the four main quests but why bother when the point I'm making is to highlight why the game is different by the fact that it doesn't highlight every point of interest.

30-11-2021 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243941#Comment_118243941

You're right. It's the only open world game to ever do this. All hail Nintendo.

Conversation over.

pixelburp · 30-11-2021 11:48AM

Weird to cry fundamentalism over BOTW. Kinda sabotages discussion with needless flouncing. I'd not call many here Nintendo fanboys TBH so it's a bit OTT.

It's a great game but has flaws. The exploration model isn't one of them, and couldn't be excused of excessive hand holding - which TBH I think is what we're dancing around here as the main point. Skyrim you can play just looking at the map - BOTW you have to climb and explore, as Johnny explained.

Markitron · 30-11-2021 11:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243741#Comment_118243741

I did really enjoy how it freshened up the open world formula, my issues with the game are completely unrelated to this. I do think it's going to be an extremely influential game, but it may take a while.

30-11-2021 11:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243958#Comment_118243958

It's tiresome dealing with just one. Anyway, it doesn't matter, I've already offered my views on the game.

Retr0gamer · 30-11-2021 11:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243950#Comment_118243950

No it's not but every game builds on what came before. BotW reminds me in a way of Dark Souls. The industry was heading in a way where the player had no player agency and wasn't allowed to really think for themselves and both games kind of say 'what would it be like if we give the player some of that agency back' and shake things up. BotW isn't perfect but I really feel it's the kick in ass the open world genre needs. I'm actually surprised that it came from Nintendo. They were the worst for their handholding design which led to ultimately to Skyward Sword which is the absolute nadir of this design philosophy.

Markitron · 30-11-2021 11:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243950#Comment_118243950

This is coming from someone that thinks the game is merely very good, but you are misrepresenting map markers in the context of this discussion. Map markers here are being discussed as icons on the map/mini map to blatantly sign post any point of interest, quest, NPC etc. BotW does not do this, it gives you a handful of points and then leaves you to your own devices for the next 50+ hrs.

It is not the first game to do this, probably not even the best, but it did it at a time when AAA openworld games were becoming so formulaic and boring. It was a notable and pleasant departure.

30-11-2021 12:02PM

Fair enough.

Kingp35 · 30-11-2021 01:04PM

I'm another one that started BoTW but didn't finish it with the reason being I just could not deal with weapons breaking. It completely ruined my sense of exploration and discovery by constantly having to enter menus to select new weapons It just isn't fun. I also found the cooking mechanic tedious. It's very frustrating because I think I would absolutely love the game if it wasn't for weapon degradation.

It's similar to how I feel about Outer Wilds, the sense of exploration and discovery is amazing in that game but it's ruined by the infuriating 22 minute loop. Just let me explore without sending me back to the start!

They are just two examples of games that contain one particular mechanic that completely ruins the game for me.

30-11-2021 02:32PM

They’ll have to rejig cooking for the sequel. It just wasn’t a well designed mechanic.

I expect BotW 2 will still have weapons that break easily.

Markitron · 30-11-2021 02:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244952#Comment_118244952

I have decided that I am not playing it if it keeps that mechanic. It was infuriating, it felt like a survival mechanic bolted onto a game that it had no business in.

The Phantom Pain · 30-11-2021 02:56PM

It was mentioned earlier about how you can climb a tower and scan for POI as a positive in comparison to the Ubisoft model to climbing a tower and revealing everything on the map. This is the sort of exaggeration about basic mechanics that makes me doubt BOTW is as good as its fans make out. The former approach is one of the few things I did not like about Immortals Fenyx Rising. Scanning every POI with your scope is not engaging; it's boring and a cop out. I would prefer that the devs either let me climb a tower and reveal everything OR, ideally, don't allow POI scanning at all, i.e. let me uncover the world as I move through it. Climbing a tower to manually reveal POI is the same thing as the Ubisoft tower approach but worse because it's wasting your time pretending it isn't.

Another thing is when people try to make out that games like Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim and Fallout somehow rob players of their agency. In those games there are markers all over the place but it's the little unmarked wonders in between that makes uncovering every inch of those worlds a joy. Denying their unique approaches to exploration or pretending that they lead you by the nose all the time in order to big up BOTW, again, just creates more resistance to BOTW because the more savvy gamer can tell that you're being hyperbolic.

TitianGerm · 30-11-2021 03:00PM

You can scan points of interest in BOTW? I used to just climb the tower to paraglide off the top 🤔

johnny_ultimate · 30-11-2021 03:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245152#Comment_118245152

That's not how it works in BotW though. You don't climb a tower and then painstakingly paint the map with icons with your scope. You might simply spy something in the distance beside a particular hill and go 'oh I should visit that later'. It doesn't pop an icon on your map.

The tower is just one example, chosen as it's a clear point of difference in game design philosophy. The whole game - including the art design, which weaves 'points of interest' into the landscape in subtle and obvious ways - is indeed designed around encouraging you to organically explore and uncover the world. It is a fundamentally different game to any Ubisoft open-world effort.

wotzgoingon · 30-11-2021 03:27PM

I prefer when there is markers telling you where to go. Mass Effect is annoying. I spent ages running around the Citildel trying to find a specific person.

30-11-2021 03:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245152#Comment_118245152

On the Bethesda point. I was playing Fallout 4 recently, a game I haven't played much.

I was in a town and I saw a large radar dish on a hill on the horizon. No quest marker pointing at it, but it was definitely there for a reason I thought. Maybe some loot?

So I traveled up towards it. On the way I noticed a junkyard to the side, which was a bit of a detour, but I decided to give it a go since looting junk is important. There, I found a decommissioned combat robot. I explored the building and hacked a terminal which gave me remote access to the robot.

I was then able to instruct the robot to defend the radar installation, which was handy because it turned out to be heavily guarded. Inside the radar installation I found high value loot.

All of this happened because I spotted something interesting in the distance, and I checked it out. No quest markers led me there. It was purely organic.

I've had multiple similar experiences in other Bethesda titles, where I tend to just roam around and find interesting things instead of doing quests, as I think that's where their games excel. You see something interesting in the distance, you check it out and you usually find something really interesting. There's literally hundreds of examples of this in their games, with many locations not even marked on the map.

I can see this game design in all of their maps. If quest markers are a distraction from this, you can actually turn them off in the options. But exploration is the keystone of every game of theirs I've played. For all their many faults as a developer, they certainly know how to design maps.

I don't really play Ubisoft games, so I can't comment on those.

Retr0gamer · 30-11-2021 03:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245296#Comment_118245296

You can place your own markers down on the map as well but really it's marking places that look interesting and heading there and finding lots of interesting things on the way. It definitely differs a whole lot from a Ubisoft game where you climb a tower and all the icons for subquests are revealed. The towers in BotW reveal the topography of the region and serve as a vantage point to scope out the land but nothing more. Its up to you to find the places of interest.

The Phantom Pain · 30-11-2021 04:08PM

So, automatically popping up on your map after scanning it versus marking it on your map yourself after scanning. Soooo different...Well, it is because the latter is somehow even more tedious...

Again, I don't really care either way but the exaggeration over simple mechanics that are similar to other games is where I check out.

Incidentally, I remember the Ubisoft CEO (whose name I won't mention because he's a piece of ****) commenting on Breath of the Wild (and HZD) and saying they outright took ideas from their games. https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/ubisoft-ceo-says-breath-of-the-wild-borrowed-parts-of-far-cry/

SuperBowserWorld · 30-11-2021 04:08PM

BOTW feels like an adventure where you wake up and figure things out and go forth and discover. Bit like the first Arctic expedition or Congo exploration.

AC Odyssey feels like a package holiday, with Ryanair, tour guide, organised disco and drinks every night.

😀😀😀

johnny_ultimate · 30-11-2021 04:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245813#Comment_118245813

You seem determined to dismiss the observations we're making about the game. Fair enough. I hope if you ever one day actually get around to playing it you'll find it as exciting, compelling and surprising a game as I and many others did :)

Retr0gamer · 30-11-2021 04:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245813#Comment_118245813

It's the same difference between a boring dungeon crawler with an auto map and Etrian Odyssey where making your own map elevates it to god tier RPG. You can dismiss it all you like but I'd rather you didn't until you tried it.

As for stealing elements from Ubisoft games, well HZD is a by the books Ubisoft game and while BotW takes its own approach and expands on things there's still a lot of elements that you can trace back to Ubi games. But then again that's what artistic media is built off of and then ubisoft went and ripped BotW off by making immortals. Maybe someone needs to remind Mr. Ancel that Beyond Good and Evil was very much a take on the Ocarina of Time formula.

Markitron · 30-11-2021 04:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245462#Comment_118245462

There is a big difference between the citadel and the openworld issues being talked about. That area is badly laid-out series of corridors with very little guidance and almost no indicators of where your objective is. I think the Legendary Edition was the 3rd or 4th time I played through it and I still had to google where to go to complete every sidequest. Thankfully they fixed it in the sequels (mostly)

The Phantom Pain · 30-11-2021 04:48PM

Yeah, dismissing a game one hasn't played...a bit like those who haven't played Deathloop but have all sorts of opinions on it 👀

Anyway, I'm good. Breath of the Wild isn't something I need to play and the hyperbole / superiority complex around it from Nintendo fans has ensured I won't so thanks, I guess, for saving me time. Peace!

Retr0gamer · 30-11-2021 05:10PM

🙄

recyclops · 30-11-2021 05:53PM

BOTW is probably one of those games that all fans of the medium should be picking up ( I picked up a wiiU for it specifically then played it again on my switch) now I am far from a Nintendo zealot but it really is deserving of the praise it gets. I agree degradation is the most annoying part of the game but outside of that for exploring it is a step beyond a lot of open world games and since replaying it I have started and quit 3 ubi titltes ( odyssey, Fenix and most recently FC6)

These get tiresome ridiculous quickly for the fatigue a massive map brings on, nothing is rewarding ( farcry 6 suffers greatly from this) and the narrative is not engaging enough to push me on to play it. I think where ubisoft really excel is in the artificial dopamine hit achievements are getting but beyond MS giving me cash rewards from this I wouldnt even be wasting my time on these.

_CreeD_ · 30-11-2021 05:57PM

Personally I really disliked BoTW and I love exploration based open world games, I'm not saying this to prove a point, I recognise it has a huge following and this is just my opinion. Usually after the first few hours of getting into an open-world game proper I just pick a direction and head off blindly for the next 20 or so hours and then just pop back to main quests every now and again when I need some focus. BoTW to me was super simplistic, the world wasn't interesting, the audio (and I am a big audio-nerd) was weak imho with medocre to decent music but empty sound effects and that god-awful noise generator for conversations (mute would have been better) with the final insult being you couldn't modify the volume of any of it independantly. Combat was ok but the little islands of bouncing cartoons that just basically ran in a straight line towards me soon got old. The puzzles were a near redeeming factor but still not enough for me to not stop after 20 hours of what felt like forced effort, and I had bought the Switch just to play this. I love exploration, seeing something on the horizon and wondering what it is, setting off and having adventures on the way. It's what drew me into Morrowind way back, that Oblivion lacked and Skyrim thankfully added back, those 'WTF is that?' moments and the treks to find out. BoTW never really felt like it rewarded me for that, again though each to their own.

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