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Ireland and suicide

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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,971 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    .....so should we continue to try shame the woman for such behaviors, or maybe we should create support networks for that woman!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Drugs is a massive driver of it in Ireland.

    And GPs wasting the secondary mental health services time sending every Tom, Dick and Harry to them using up appointments and Consultants time. I used to work in a community clinic and the amount of referrals we'd get because someone felt low every Monday, Tuesday morning after caning it the weekend before. If we turned the referral away, explaining that the person was suffering from drug induced comedowns from the weekend, the doctor would send it repeatedly until they were seen, or fabricate another reason that the patient would deny when seen.

    Same with GPs using the mental health services as an addiction service because they had prescribed baffling amounts of drugs, mainly benzo's, to the patient and didn't want the hassle of weaning them off it themselves. Patients can become very aggressive during this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,971 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    this is just showing absolute system failure, such individuals may in fact require basic therapy to try break these cycles, this shows where our health system fails at even the most basic level



  • Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭Housefree


    Society doesn't care about men, if the majority of suicides were women we would be having ribbon days and marketing campaigns etc men's issues aren't addressed.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    While those are all potentially bad things I would be hesitant to over state them either. For example moderate alcohol consumption during pregnancy has not been shown to be a bad thing by default.

    Unfortunately a lot of the science literature on the subject is quite misleading to the general public. There are a few uses of language that are common which sound bad when they are not.

    One sentence you will hear often for example is something like "There is no safe level of alcohol for consumption during pregnancy".

    That sentence sound to the lay person like drinking any alcohol is unsafe. But that is not what it says. What they are essentially saying is "We have found no reason to think low moderate use is unsafe - but not finding evidence it is harmful does not mean it is not harmful - because there is no claims to certainty in science".

    Basically they are being safe because there are many things we do not know. So it is safer to say the obvious - which is that the only dosage shown to be 100% safe is of course none. But you could say that about anything really.

    In general though - if you see a pregnant woman with a nice big glass of wine in her hand of a Saturday night - we have pretty much zero cause for concern or judgement. It's likely perfectly fine and is seemingly unlikely to be causing the fetus/baby a shred of harm. If you see her falling around the place on a regular basis though - concern would certainly be warranted.

    Worse is that punitive policies and judgements of women who drink at all during pregnancy seems to correlate with higher drinking rates during pregnancy. Which does seem counter intuitive and certainly counter productive.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree it is a deep challenge. But I think I would have a slightly small level of pessimism about it than throwing our hands up and saying "we cant" prevent it or fix it. Well not in all cases. But there is no way to prevent all cases of anything at all. All we can do is strive towards reduction and "zero cases" is an ideal to strive towards even while knowing it is unattainable.

    As to the "hows" of it? I guess a holistic approach is necessary. We can tackle it directly with campaigns and raising awareness. And people have tried that.

    But doing that alone is not good enough. We should identify the causes and factors involved and undermine them too. Identify all the things related to well being - or to the detriment of well being - and address each one as best we can.

    Healthy Eating and Regular Exercise for example is not the cure all for every depression or suicidal thought. But it would still be the first "go to" for me if I was taking it upon myself to help someone with depression or ideation. It is one of the many things we could improve as a society. And I notice in a few documentaries recently - including one on RTE a couple of weeks ago - that following covid lock down many of our public amenities are seeing more footfall after the lock down than they ever did before it. Which means for some small cohort of people - it took a pandemic to build an appreciation of nature and walking and exercise and so forth.

    At the end of the day something as seemingly simple as a statistic on how many people end in suicide - is just the face on a complex multi faceted issue in the background. And addressing all of it does seem daunting and hopeless for sure. But that is all the more reason to give it a good old try all the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    They may indeed, but from a qualified addiction counsellor and once clear of addiction, they may need mental health intervention. Addictions are quite different to mental health issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,971 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    disagree there, and i suspect most, if not all therapists ive seen would also agree with me, its whats called 'cause and effect', the cause is the underlying mental health issues, the effect is the addiction, addictions tend to be manifestations of unmet psychological needs, therapy is one of the better approaches to dealing with them, although, therapy can work best when the person has dealt with their addictions first, but this could, and probably should be done, in conjunction to therapy/counselling etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Drugs are just a catalyst - the mental health probems are in place long before the drugs come into play.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The reaction to Covid 19 in this country suggests to me that Brits are a lot less fearful of death than we are



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Addiction is a physical illness, your body literally craves the drug. Doing CBT, DBT, mindfulness etc. are pointless if you are skagging and you’re gonna go out for a hit straight after the session. You’re literally back at square on at every session. Waste of time and resources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Massive suicide issue here in Roscommon and particularly in the west of the county. Unusually high rate of female suicide too. Its been going on for more than two decades now and numerous people that were in school around same time as me have taken their lives.

    The mental health situation in the county is pathetic. Successive governments have continually cut services to a point we have mentally disturbed people walking up and down the streets of second biggest town in the county.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What we hear most in regards to suicide is the deaths. Men are more likely to complete a suicide attempt, due to the means selected. Women attempt suicide at a higher rate. I think it's unhelpful when we focus too much on men and women as such. It can seem that the attempt isn't given the attention it needs and an attempt has been seen as attention seeking or manipulative by women in the past. The thing is we all suffer. We have a suffering problem, we need more spaces where a person can go and speak where they are just listened. In Australia there is a fantastic initiative called Just Listening, where the person who is suffering is treated with such dignity and truly listened to. The sad part here, is that many are dying by suicide and many others are after having an attempt and not getting the support they need afterwards. We can never take the stigma away from mental health, by once seeing a person as suffering with their mental health they have become stigmatised.

    Suicide has always been some people's solution to end their suffering, only before because suicide was seen as a sin even it wasn't revealed.

    It is still difficult for the family as there are judgements implied that the family could have done more.

    Initiatives like Darkness into Light will not ease any rates of self harm it will provide funding to the organisation though.

    Besides covid our society has become more competitive and indivualistic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,821 ✭✭✭sporina


    absolutely.. @nj27 - you obv don't know what depression is... if your REALLY depressed and suicidal you think that the world would be better off without you.. don't preach about stuff you don't understand..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Within mental health treatment addictions tend to be tackled first. Personally I think similar to yourself. It must be a two pronged approach. For example its no good tackling a person's diet and tendency to binge without also looking at the underlying reasons. And I guarantee you that there are always underlying reasons.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To add to the above about "suffering" - addressing, reducing, and acknowledging suffering is great stuff. But I wonder at the same time if we should also be building up our ability to deal with suffering.

    Just like in disease it is great to undermine the disease, find treatments for it, and support people who get it. But it is also a good thing to address things that help people deal with disease like personal health and diet and so forth. And we find that doing things like keeping surfaces and children much too clean might in fact have a negative long term effect by reducing the robustness of their immune systems.

    Are we doing a similar thing in society in relation to mental health issues? Are we undermining the robustness of our ability to deal with suffering when it comes. Many examples might rush to mind. For some reason my mind often goes to "Participation medals" in sports for children in some areas of the world. Where everyone gets a medal just so no one has to deal with showing up for some kind of sporting event and losing.

    There is something to be said for allowing - even positively bringing - some controlled adversity and suffering into the lives of our children as they grow. Allow them to try and fail. Allow them to suffer disappointment and boredom and many of the things we sometimes want to protect them against.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,971 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    jesus christ, and you re an addiction counsellor, holy fcuk!

    addictions are both physically and mentally based, you ll find most research actually supports this, if you think someone 'skagging' out of their minds is in a sound place mentally, you re on another fcuking planet! holy fcuk dont tell me this is still the way many addiction counsellors think, cause if it is, we re truly fcuked!

    yes, many forms of therapy would indeed be pointless, as mentioned, unless these addictions are addressed, but many of these individuals would simply be unable to withdraw without professional guidance, including working with therapists etc, to do so. this is where we re failing with many such individuals, these services simply dont exist, as you can see, some still have the belief, deal with your addiction issues first, then we ll give you access to services, maybe! sorry, but thats not gonna cut it, as many of these individuals psychological and emotional needs are simply not being met, in order for them to do so. a therapist once told me of a person under their care, homeless, with all sorts of mental health issues, and probably all sorts of dysfunctional behavioral problems, possible addictions to, they told me, you cant truly start helping them until they have secure accommodation, any methods used, will simply fail, this just shows how fcuked we are in regards housing, mental health issues, addiction problems, etc etc etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Craving something is not a physical illness.

    Furthermore, it's not the drug or activity that drives the addiction, its the dopamine hit that it brings about. Now that is physical, but its not the cause.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Your body craving a hit; the cramps, the headaches, the itchiness, the sweats, the panic etc when you don't get it soon enough are all physical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    1. I never said I was an addiction counsellor, I've no idea where you've gotten that idea from.
    2. You cannot deal with the mental component of an addiction if someone is physically craving/withdrawing from the drug.
    3. Addiction services DO have talking therapies etc ALONGSIDE helping to withdraw/get clean, perhaps learning what they do will curtail your wild ranting. We certainly don't have enough addiction services, but they are completely different to secondary stage mental health clinics, which are not residential. Localised mental health clinics do not have the facilities or the resources to do the withdrawal/getting clean part that the addiction services provide.
    4. Nice anecdote at the end, no idea of the relevance of it to this discussion though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Again, these are syntoms, not causes. Stress can have similar effects, but it's not a physical illness either.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,149 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Organised by women.

    Oh, who could we get to get themselves organised to draw attention to young men's suicides?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,971 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    apologies, i misunderstood your statement above, but my other comments still stand

    1. again, yes, many therapy methods, as you mentioned, will simply fail, if the addiction issues are not addressed first, unfortunately, many individuals with addiction issues in fact require professional guidance and supports, in order to deal with their addiction issues, before engaging in such therapy methods, but in many cases, the services required for this, simply dont exist
    2. again, addiction is a manifestation of both physical and psychological needs not being met, in particular psychological and emotional needs not being met, in order to truly treat addiction issues, psychological and emotional issues must also be treated in conjunction with each other, in order to increase the likelihood of successful treatment
    3. again yes, the services required to increase successful treatments, simply do not exist for many, if not most
    4. again, the reason for the anecdote is to show how deep and complex our mental health issues truly are, including in relation to addiction, it ultimate shows deep systemic failures thats currently occurring. our property issues are now exposing, creating and exasperating all of these complex social issues, we re creating mental health issues, which has a tendency to lead to addiction problems, and whats called 'maladaptive copying mechanism', its a mess of our own making, and is preventable


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Like I said a large proportion of suicides here are young women and nothing is being done...

    Maybe it's more that people don't want to address the factors at play or the mental health problems Ireland clearly has and try to sweep it under the carpet.

    Its not long ago in this country that suicide victims were treated like outcasts of society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays


    Mental health isn't a medical issue. There's no dominant / recessive gene for these illnesses.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Women get together and do the organising and awareness-creating when it comes to women's health issues. Therefore it would make sense for men to get together and do the organising and awareness-creating when it comes to men's health issues. And men do. But unfortunately there is also a contingent among men who just whinge about things not being done, instead of... doing something themselves (shur that's for someone else to do) and how women have it better. Blissfully oblivious to the irony of them doing nothing and moaning about nothing being done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    his post just shows the ignorance towards mental health, as does a few other posts. The good ol eat well exercise and talk therapy as if it’s that simple



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If you feel down because of e.g. Covid, exercise and healthy eating are great, but if you actually have clinical depression or anxiety, it's a struggle to get up, never mind commit to an exercise regime.

    When you're being treated though and hopefully starting to feel better, exercise is great then.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    That's true with drugs like heroin and alcohol but with drugs like cocaine there are no physical withdrawals



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