Ireland and suicide

Lollipop95

Does anyone else think this country has a serious issue with suicide? In the last 2 weeks, I’ve heard of 3 young men dying, all by suicide.

Some may be exacerbated by lockdown, but I feel like it’s always been an issue. But why? There’s awareness campaigns like DIL, but are they making a difference?

It’s well known that the mental health services in this country is shocking, but why does it seem so prominent in Ireland? I was talking to a friend recently who lives in England. They mentioned that in England they do have the whole “stiff upper lip” attitude (in some people), but for the most part, English people understand emotions. He said that is different to Irish people, who don’t really seem to and think it’s important to be happy at all times.

I’ve been to places like the US and over there there’s a lot more relaxed attitude to things like therapy. The word is thrown around over there like it’s nothing, whereas over here I’d know quite a few people who would get offended at the suggestion.

It’s all just so sad. And it’s not even all young men who are doing it, I’ve heard of some suicide in the past few years where the person is in their 70s.

What is the solution here?

katherineconlan

I remember reading somewhere that Ireland actually doesn't have a particularly high suicide rate (well it's high compared to many developing countries but lower than many other regions like Eastern Europe, Japan, South Korea) but due to a smaller degree of separation, people know many people that take their own life.

I know of only one person who took their life, my basketball coach in secondary school but it's seems that many people knew him, even though he wasn't a prolific figure. I've moved counties and met someone who played basketball with him. In places like the U.S. however, it's possible to meet people who you'll never meet again or who don't know anyone in your social circle compared to here.

Danzy

The Idea that Irish people think one has to be happy at all times is a new one to me.

People here were largely as stoic as it gets. Accepting that life is often **** but that is part of the game and doesn't mean a **** Life.

piplip87

I think the number is under reported to. All these young lads getting killed in single vehicle collisions, I'd imagine a fair bit of these could be suicide.

I know my own brother died in one 10 years ago and looking back before the accident he was displaying some of the signs like giving stuff away, changed the benefactor for his credit union savings and gave the mother a large sum of money to mind for him turns out there was enough to cover a funeral.

Personally of the top of my head I can think of 12 people o know who killed themselves. Most of them where happy people who it was a complete shock when it happened.

nj27

I'm an advocate of keeping your state of mind to yourself. People should work on improving their lifestyle rather than crying about "mental health". I know this is an unpopular point of view these days but I think it works for me and would probably work for a lot of people if they gave it an earnest go. I had some psychological issues a while ago and I made sure I went towards positive things like exercise, reading, and working hard then suddenly they weren't a big deal anymore. If you're a paranoid schizophrenic get down to the doctors office and get some heavy antipsychotics, or if you're making plans to kill yourself check into the hospital instead, but these vague and mild bouts of anxiety and depression people complain about are most likely the result of a dreadful lifestyle and crying about it is probably just counterproductive.

Mrs OBumble

Irish culture is fixated on death: there's nothing anyone loves more than a good aul funeral.

Also, the culture is poor at listening, so even when someone who is considering self-harm askes for help, they are unlikely to be heard.

dxhound2005

Lowest recorded suicide level in 20 years. There were 147 road deaths in 2020. Some may have been suicides, but it would need proof. Even if a large number was added to the suicide figure, it would still be a low number overall.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/recorded-suicides-in-ireland-fall-to-lowest-level-in-two-decades-1.4664538

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202164#Comment_118202164

South Korea has the highest teenage suicide rate, the pressure those kids are under to get amazing test scores in that country is scary...

I think modern life is a contributing factor to mental health issues and illnesses...

Genuinely, when was the last time you saw the stars in the sky, or went a number of weeks were you did get woken by your alarm or had stresses about trivial (well things that ordinarily were deemed trivial)

Also looking at what your average person eats and drinks is likely having issues too...

In my last job, I had ballooned to over 100kg and was sleeping 5 hours a night, due to stress and messed up work schedule, all for poor wages*

*I don't spend much money mind, so even poor wages still goes a long way for me

Mad_maxx

The idea of killing oneself in a car seems odd ?

Certainly not a sure thing in terms of success

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202445#Comment_118202445

It's not a sure thing. But as a phenomenon, there is an abundance of academic research on it.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202445#Comment_118202445

If you'd a spot picked like the side of a motorway bridge or a big tree and hit it at 100 - 150 kph without the seat belt, it would probably be a fore gone conclusion

Sonics2k

Terrible support for those suffering from mental health problems, open dismissal, lack of focused support of men's mental health, total lack of funding and massive wait times just to get seen or start treatment.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202366#Comment_118202366

But it is a culture, especially in rural Ireland with a very healthy acceptance of death. Death is accepted as just a part of life,the price of life.

I've family in England who have never seen a dead body, never mind a person die. That's a dangerous level of hiding from life and it is becoming more prevalent here as well.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202164#Comment_118202164

Maybe there's an impression abroad that we have a high suicide rate because it was formerly so rare, or at least so rarely acknowledged and talked about. Whereas in other countries it would have long been fairly widespread and openly acknowledged for people in certain circumstances, say an old guy whose wife has just died, to check out themselves so that those countries would have a higher rate of suicide than us but it wouldn't be regarded as something shocking or even much remarked upon.

Ekerot

What I take from my own experiences with depression/mental health is that people here are quite reluctant to help others when they reach out. Even if it's a friend/family member.

My parents were like that, anytime I'd bring something bad up that happened to me, their response would be something like:

"Get away from me, I'm not an expert."

or

"That's water under the bridge now, forget about it."

I remember once thinking during a CBT session I had "Why am I here?" "If therapy wasn't an option who would be the obvious person I'd speak to?" (family/friends/parents)

Someone already mentioned the abyss of the HSE, but maybe the answer is also to teach others to be more compassionate?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202445#Comment_118202445

Autocide is very much a thing.

Seems to be a lot of assumption in the thread that ireland is exceptional in ways that im not at all sure of across suicide rates, culture around it and indeed mental health supports available

It's a struggle for people who are not working and perhaps still living at home!

Fortunately enough I'm not there but I have been in part!

My advise is to up & leave either your town, city or country & emigrate!

Plenty of work currently in the UK.

You need to get out of the hole that you find yourself in and move quickly!

john9876

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202263#Comment_118202263

It's not just an unpopular opinion, it's also a load of bollix.

john9876

nj27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202908#Comment_118202908

I'm so glad you chimed in with that astute point, although your follow up post was better.

TooTired123

My daughter is 24 and at this stage when she and her friends hear that yet another fella they know has “unalived” himself (their expression) they just shrug and shake their heads. She claims that, to date, every single one has had what she considers a serious issue with drink and/or narcotics or gambling. She considers it a serious issue if you are always needing physical assistance to function during a night out and your friends have to worry about you getting home and that you’ll do something stupid.

In my mind it is one of the most complex challenges in life. How do we prevent it? Well we can't. We can absolutely have a more robust health system and that may go some way to providing appropriate supports. Ideally the work begins from zero in the home and even then there are no guarantees of emotionally healthy and resilient individuals to emerge. We do our best with what we have and hope and hope that its enough but sometimes it isn't. Sometimes no matter what we do a person will take their own life.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202585#Comment_118202585

I hope things are brighter for you now Ekerot.

What I think happens with some people is they are unable to face the pain of others so they push you away. They may care but they don't have the capacity themselves to listen to you. That may be because it is uncomfortably close to their own hurts and they are unable to go there in themselves.

When it comes to our families the dismissal may be a denial of sorts. So 'get away from me I'm not an expert' really means 'I can't deal with you my child going through something hard so I'm going to pretend it doesn't matter and hopefully it will go away'.

Neither are appropriate responses to give a person who is struggling and may be as a result of no compassion. However I find that trying to understand the 'why' of such responses can help us deal with them.

Regarding therapy, you can have the most loving supportful people around you and still may need the input of a professional.

Compassion is a most underrated quality. I really believe in it. If we connect with ourselves in a compassionate manner then a lot of negative self talk loses its power. In saying that I think it's important that it doesn't get in the way of personal responsibility. I can say something rubbish and own it and apologise and also not give myself a hard time over it.

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202501#Comment_118202501

I had a friend who committed suicide years ago. He had alot of cousins from England who when they came to the funeral were , quite frankly, shocked that the body was in the house. Some of them were in bits at seeing a body in the living room.

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202445#Comment_118202445

It does seem a strange way of doing it , but antedotly? I have had people tell me that they think someone who died in an accident did it on purpose.

cj maxx

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203002#Comment_118203002

It begins from well before zero.

At a minimum, from -9 months: if a woman drinks alcohol, uses recreational drugs, or even eats badly, while pregnant, she is setting the child up for a difficult life.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202401#Comment_118202401

I lived in Korea for a few years and in that time I knew more people who killed themselves than all the rest of my life in ireland.

We don't have a particular high suicide rate in ireland.One thing we do have is a stigma attached to it.In other countries they report by a person died by suicide,here it's cryptic stuff life the Guards aren't looking for any suspects and such like, it's nonsense.

I also think the drinking/drugs/bender culture and associated mental health problems are the biggest driver of suicide here.In Korea for example it's the ridiculous pressure people are put under from a young age to have successful careers.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209201#Comment_118209201

There you have it, folks, the high suicide rate is down to the curry chips Irish mothers enjoy while pregnant. Those b*tches.

Wanderer78

like most other countries, we have a serious problem with mental health issues, theres still a strong stigma with it, and we still dont want to appropriately fund our health systems in order to deal with it!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209201#Comment_118209201

.....so should we continue to try shame the woman for such behaviors, or maybe we should create support networks for that woman!

Fandymo

Drugs is a massive driver of it in Ireland.

And GPs wasting the secondary mental health services time sending every Tom, Dick and Harry to them using up appointments and Consultants time. I used to work in a community clinic and the amount of referrals we'd get because someone felt low every Monday, Tuesday morning after caning it the weekend before. If we turned the referral away, explaining that the person was suffering from drug induced comedowns from the weekend, the doctor would send it repeatedly until they were seen, or fabricate another reason that the patient would deny when seen.

Same with GPs using the mental health services as an addiction service because they had prescribed baffling amounts of drugs, mainly benzo's, to the patient and didn't want the hassle of weaning them off it themselves. Patients can become very aggressive during this.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209526#Comment_118209526

this is just showing absolute system failure, such individuals may in fact require basic therapy to try break these cycles, this shows where our health system fails at even the most basic level

Housefree

Society doesn't care about men, if the majority of suicides were women we would be having ribbon days and marketing campaigns etc men's issues aren't addressed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209201#Comment_118209201

While those are all potentially bad things I would be hesitant to over state them either. For example moderate alcohol consumption during pregnancy has not been shown to be a bad thing by default.

Unfortunately a lot of the science literature on the subject is quite misleading to the general public. There are a few uses of language that are common which sound bad when they are not.

One sentence you will hear often for example is something like "There is no safe level of alcohol for consumption during pregnancy".

That sentence sound to the lay person like drinking any alcohol is unsafe. But that is not what it says. What they are essentially saying is "We have found no reason to think low moderate use is unsafe - but not finding evidence it is harmful does not mean it is not harmful - because there is no claims to certainty in science".

Basically they are being safe because there are many things we do not know. So it is safer to say the obvious - which is that the only dosage shown to be 100% safe is of course none. But you could say that about anything really.

In general though - if you see a pregnant woman with a nice big glass of wine in her hand of a Saturday night - we have pretty much zero cause for concern or judgement. It's likely perfectly fine and is seemingly unlikely to be causing the fetus/baby a shred of harm. If you see her falling around the place on a regular basis though - concern would certainly be warranted.

Worse is that punitive policies and judgements of women who drink at all during pregnancy seems to correlate with higher drinking rates during pregnancy. Which does seem counter intuitive and certainly counter productive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203002#Comment_118203002

I agree it is a deep challenge. But I think I would have a slightly small level of pessimism about it than throwing our hands up and saying "we cant" prevent it or fix it. Well not in all cases. But there is no way to prevent all cases of anything at all. All we can do is strive towards reduction and "zero cases" is an ideal to strive towards even while knowing it is unattainable.

As to the "hows" of it? I guess a holistic approach is necessary. We can tackle it directly with campaigns and raising awareness. And people have tried that.

But doing that alone is not good enough. We should identify the causes and factors involved and undermine them too. Identify all the things related to well being - or to the detriment of well being - and address each one as best we can.

Healthy Eating and Regular Exercise for example is not the cure all for every depression or suicidal thought. But it would still be the first "go to" for me if I was taking it upon myself to help someone with depression or ideation. It is one of the many things we could improve as a society. And I notice in a few documentaries recently - including one on RTE a couple of weeks ago - that following covid lock down many of our public amenities are seeing more footfall after the lock down than they ever did before it. Which means for some small cohort of people - it took a pandemic to build an appreciation of nature and walking and exercise and so forth.

At the end of the day something as seemingly simple as a statistic on how many people end in suicide - is just the face on a complex multi faceted issue in the background. And addressing all of it does seem daunting and hopeless for sure. But that is all the more reason to give it a good old try all the same.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209532#Comment_118209532

They may indeed, but from a qualified addiction counsellor and once clear of addiction, they may need mental health intervention. Addictions are quite different to mental health issues.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209906#Comment_118209906

disagree there, and i suspect most, if not all therapists ive seen would also agree with me, its whats called 'cause and effect', the cause is the underlying mental health issues, the effect is the addiction, addictions tend to be manifestations of unmet psychological needs, therapy is one of the better approaches to dealing with them, although, therapy can work best when the person has dealt with their addictions first, but this could, and probably should be done, in conjunction to therapy/counselling etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209526#Comment_118209526

Drugs are just a catalyst - the mental health probems are in place long before the drugs come into play.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202501#Comment_118202501

The reaction to Covid 19 in this country suggests to me that Brits are a lot less fearful of death than we are

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210352#Comment_118210352

Addiction is a physical illness, your body literally craves the drug. Doing CBT, DBT, mindfulness etc. are pointless if you are skagging and you’re gonna go out for a hit straight after the session. You’re literally back at square on at every session. Waste of time and resources.

rossie1977

Massive suicide issue here in Roscommon and particularly in the west of the county. Unusually high rate of female suicide too. Its been going on for more than two decades now and numerous people that were in school around same time as me have taken their lives.

The mental health situation in the county is pathetic. Successive governments have continually cut services to a point we have mentally disturbed people walking up and down the streets of second biggest town in the county.

What we hear most in regards to suicide is the deaths. Men are more likely to complete a suicide attempt, due to the means selected. Women attempt suicide at a higher rate. I think it's unhelpful when we focus too much on men and women as such. It can seem that the attempt isn't given the attention it needs and an attempt has been seen as attention seeking or manipulative by women in the past. The thing is we all suffer. We have a suffering problem, we need more spaces where a person can go and speak where they are just listened. In Australia there is a fantastic initiative called Just Listening, where the person who is suffering is treated with such dignity and truly listened to. The sad part here, is that many are dying by suicide and many others are after having an attempt and not getting the support they need afterwards. We can never take the stigma away from mental health, by once seeing a person as suffering with their mental health they have become stigmatised.

Suicide has always been some people's solution to end their suffering, only before because suicide was seen as a sin even it wasn't revealed.

It is still difficult for the family as there are judgements implied that the family could have done more.

Initiatives like Darkness into Light will not ease any rates of self harm it will provide funding to the organisation though.

Besides covid our society has become more competitive and indivualistic.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202908#Comment_118202908

absolutely.. @nj27 - you obv don't know what depression is... if your REALLY depressed and suicidal you think that the world would be better off without you.. don't preach about stuff you don't understand..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210352#Comment_118210352

Within mental health treatment addictions tend to be tackled first. Personally I think similar to yourself. It must be a two pronged approach. For example its no good tackling a person's diet and tendency to binge without also looking at the underlying reasons. And I guarantee you that there are always underlying reasons.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213881#Comment_118213881

To add to the above about "suffering" - addressing, reducing, and acknowledging suffering is great stuff. But I wonder at the same time if we should also be building up our ability to deal with suffering.

Just like in disease it is great to undermine the disease, find treatments for it, and support people who get it. But it is also a good thing to address things that help people deal with disease like personal health and diet and so forth. And we find that doing things like keeping surfaces and children much too clean might in fact have a negative long term effect by reducing the robustness of their immune systems.

Are we doing a similar thing in society in relation to mental health issues? Are we undermining the robustness of our ability to deal with suffering when it comes. Many examples might rush to mind. For some reason my mind often goes to "Participation medals" in sports for children in some areas of the world. Where everyone gets a medal just so no one has to deal with showing up for some kind of sporting event and losing.

There is something to be said for allowing - even positively bringing - some controlled adversity and suffering into the lives of our children as they grow. Allow them to try and fail. Allow them to suffer disappointment and boredom and many of the things we sometimes want to protect them against.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213744#Comment_118213744

jesus christ, and you re an addiction counsellor, holy fcuk!

addictions are both physically and mentally based, you ll find most research actually supports this, if you think someone 'skagging' out of their minds is in a sound place mentally, you re on another fcuking planet! holy fcuk dont tell me this is still the way many addiction counsellors think, cause if it is, we re truly fcuked!

yes, many forms of therapy would indeed be pointless, as mentioned, unless these addictions are addressed, but many of these individuals would simply be unable to withdraw without professional guidance, including working with therapists etc, to do so. this is where we re failing with many such individuals, these services simply dont exist, as you can see, some still have the belief, deal with your addiction issues first, then we ll give you access to services, maybe! sorry, but thats not gonna cut it, as many of these individuals psychological and emotional needs are simply not being met, in order for them to do so. a therapist once told me of a person under their care, homeless, with all sorts of mental health issues, and probably all sorts of dysfunctional behavioral problems, possible addictions to, they told me, you cant truly start helping them until they have secure accommodation, any methods used, will simply fail, this just shows how fcuked we are in regards housing, mental health issues, addiction problems, etc etc etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213744#Comment_118213744

Craving something is not a physical illness.

Furthermore, it's not the drug or activity that drives the addiction, its the dopamine hit that it brings about. Now that is physical, but its not the cause.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215448#Comment_118215448

Your body craving a hit; the cramps, the headaches, the itchiness, the sweats, the panic etc when you don't get it soon enough are all physical.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215324#Comment_118215324

1. I never said I was an addiction counsellor, I've no idea where you've gotten that idea from.
2. You cannot deal with the mental component of an addiction if someone is physically craving/withdrawing from the drug.
3. Addiction services DO have talking therapies etc ALONGSIDE helping to withdraw/get clean, perhaps learning what they do will curtail your wild ranting. We certainly don't have enough addiction services, but they are completely different to secondary stage mental health clinics, which are not residential. Localised mental health clinics do not have the facilities or the resources to do the withdrawal/getting clean part that the addiction services provide.
4. Nice anecdote at the end, no idea of the relevance of it to this discussion though.