To be, or not to be (given a CID)…

Ditzie · 15-09-2021 8:46pm #1

TL;DR:

1. Does seniority apply when looking for a CID? i.e if there is a teacher on the same hours for longer, does it have to be offered to them first?

2. If you have been given a CID, can you cover jobshare hours?

Apologies for the long winded post, but I can’t find clarity on this anywhere and my mind is melted.

This is my 4th year in a school on an RPT contract. I was covering jobshare hours in year 1 and 2, however last year had 11 part-time resource hours (arising from Covid).

There are three teachers covering jobshare hours who also had these hours last year; one (year 6), myself (year 4) and one (year 3). Last year when I asked about a CID, I was told I was entitled to a 22hr one, however it would have to be offered to the teacher ahead of me (and rejected) before it could be awarded to me.

This year I have 11 part time resource hours that seem to be my own. I again went to the principal and asked about a CID… to be told there will be no CIDs issued this year.

Basically, if I am entitled to a CID, does seniority apply? i.e if I’m entitled to one, does it have to be offered to the teacher there 6 years first and rejected?

Similarly, does the teacher there 3 years have to wait until it’s offered to both of us?

I was also told last year that if I was awarded CID I would be redeployed, as I could not cover my usual jobshare hours and there would be no hours for me. Can you cover jobshare hours when you have a CID? (solely for the duration of that jobshare obviously)

I went to my union last year only to be told to speak to the principal about it.

I’d really appreciate it if anyone could help - it’s a minefield!

mtoutlemonde · 15-09-2021 10:08pm

The teacher with the most service is offered additional hours up to 22 hours and the sequence continues. Look for circular on the scheduling of posts circular - don't know the number. To award a CID, there has to be hours available in the next academic year and subject need.

My advice - get all your contracts together - scan them and email your union rep - get them to work it out - you pay their wages - don't accept the answer to go to the principal. CID and contracts are a minefield which they are trained for. Best of luck with your case.

RealJohn · 16-09-2021 12:46pm

It’s been a while since any of this has applied to me, but my understanding of it is this:

The only way you can be ‘entitled’ to a CID is if you have the same contract for two years in a row (it was four years when it applied to me) and then, you’re entitled to a CID for the number of hours you had in your second year of the contract, whether that was 6 or 22 or anything in between. That much has nothing to do with seniority. You’re either entitled to it or you’re not.

Now, where seniority does come in is once you have a CID on less than 22 hours, you’re entitled to have those increased, up to 22, if hours are available in your subject, depending on seniority (but again here, I would think ‘seniority’ means whoever has a CID longest, not whoever is there longest). I would think that this only applies to subjects you’re qualified to teach, not necessarily subjects you’re not qualified to teach but sometimes end up teaching.

Just to be clear, I am not to be taken as an expert on this, but that is my understanding of the situation.

Answers to your questions, based on my understanding:

No.
Probably.

rainbowtrout · 17-09-2021 10:44pm

Your principal is a chancer. There's no such thing as seniority for CIDs. Your eligibility for a CID (or any other teacher in the school) is based on the individual contracts you have had while working there. It doesn't mean that you have to wait until other people are offered a CID until you can be offered one.

What RealJohn said above about being offered the extra hours is correct, and it applies to people who are on CIDs that are not on full hours, that's where seniority kicks in.

However there is no quota for CIDs, if there are 10 teachers who have completed 2 years in a school on RPT contracts and meet the requirements then all 10 can be offered CIDs, and being offered a CID is not dependent on someone else rejecting it.

Go back to your union, do not allow them to fob you off, if you do not get any satisfaction from the local rep for your county branch, go to the area rep and explain your situation to them and also tell them you were fobbed off. This is what you pay your union subscription for, and CID queries are bread and butter stuff.

This is the circular that covers all CID related entitlements. https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/24-15.pdf

According to a FAQ on the TUI website, jobshare hours are not eligible for CID as they are fixed purpose so my reading of it is that you would not be eligible for CID based on the hours you had in Year 1 and 2. However if the resource hours you had in Year 3 and this year were your own, then those hours are eligible unless there was a specific objective ground written into your contract last year and this year saying they were ineligible.

Also, to further compound the fact that your principal is a chancer, you do not have to be redeployed if you get a CID. Assuming there are no objective grounds in your contract in Year 3 and this year, you could be eligible for an 11 hour CID based on the resource hours you held which are yours. There is nothing to stop the principal having you teach your 11 hour CID next year and also do 11 hours jobshare for which you would have a separate contract. If that teacher returns to full hours of course you would lose the 11 hours jobshare but it wouldn't affect the CID. Personally I think that the principal is scaremongering so you won't push for the CID by suggesting you'll have to leave the school. Given that there are teachers in there for 4 and 6 years being told they are not eligible also suggests a certain level of shadiness.

Get your paperwork in order and get back on to your union asap and do not take no for an answer.

From the TUI website:

How do I qualify for a CID under the new arrangements?

(i) To qualify for a CID you must have up to date registration with the Teaching Council and be qualified to teach in your sector.

(ii) You must have in excess of two years continuous service with the same employer, on one or more fixed term/fixed purpose contracts.

(iii) The post must be viable for at least a full school year and come from the allocation.

(iv) In the qualifying year, at least some of the hours held must be free from an ‘objective ground’ for not awarding a CID.

What is an ‘objective ground’?

If all of the hours that a teacher holds in their qualifying year contain what is known as an ‘objective ground’ they will not receive a CID. Objective grounds apply if the hours are of a legitimate fixed purpose nature i.e. covering for a teacher on maternity leave, sick leave or job share OR if there is a legitimate reason as to why the post is not viable in the employment (school/scheme) for at least a full school year.

The teacher’s contract must include a statement detailing the specific objective ground(s).

A generic objective ground (e.g. the post is dependent on funding) is not acceptable.

Please note, if a teacher holds even one hour that is free from an objective ground in their qualifying year, they will get a CID for all hours worked in the qualifying year.

Under CL 24/15, hours covering for a teacher on career break or secondment are no longer considered to be objective grounds for not awarding a CID.

Ditzie · 19-09-2021 12:27am

Thanks to all who’ve responded - I really appreciate you taking the time to do so! I’ve contacted the union again, so hopefully I can get it over the line this year.

@rainbowtrout according to the department we are overquota at the minute by one teacher (on paper anyway), so I think that’s where the threat of redeployment is coming from, although we undoubtedly need everyone we have.

rainbowtrout · 19-09-2021 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909839#Comment_117909839

That might be the case, but doesn't necessarily mean you will be the one redeployed. Even if you were redeployed (and I understand you might not want to be), you have the security of a CID, which is what your principal doesn't want you to have. Anything could happen before the end of the year - a teacher could leave, go on career break, go on job share, retire which makes hours available in the school.

RealJohn · 20-09-2021 10:53am

Yeah, you’re entitled to the CID regardless (if you’re entitled to it at all, which seems to be the case) so you’re better off having it than not. If they say that they have to redeploy you, you have rights there too regarding how far they can move you, unless you do it willingly.

If you’re entitled to the CID, I’d say make sure you get it and then worry about redeployment. They’re unlikely to redeploy you during the school year anyway.

fall · 20-09-2021 8:13pm

Ditzie, did you sign an appointment or a reappointment form? If so there is a section on that that details your contract type and also where your hours originate from. If you are department paid email payroll directly and ask for that information. Once you get that information put it up here and I will hopefully be able to advise you.

22-09-2021 9:04pm

There's some sound advice on this thread, OP, but in particular if you are not getting the answers you want from the Principal you need to contact either the ASTI or the TUI. They'll make it clear what your entitlements are, both as regards a CID and as regards additional hours. As well as that, they'll have the know-how and the time and headspace to handle the Principal and the system on your behalf.

22-09-2021 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909839#Comment_117909839

Oops, missed this post. You've done the right thing contacting the union. Best of luck with it.

Ditzie · 07-11-2021 3:41pm

Update for you all, contacted the union and as a result, the principal forwarded my request to the department - @fall based on my contracts, the department said I am entitled to CID, once there are viable hours there for my employment to continue.

Principal has told them there are not, so it was not issued. Union rep rang him on my behalf to no avail.

So the fight continues for a third year. It’s now looking like I will have to leave a school I love, in order to have some security. Feeling very disillusioned at the minute and do not know how much longer I can continue in teaching. 😢

rainbowtrout · 07-11-2021 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131553#Comment_118131553

It's November. Your principal has no idea what the allocation is going to be for next year until February at the earliest. I would keep a very close on eye the situation. I suspect he is hoping you will leave of your own accord and/or drop your claim on a CID, and be able to keep staff dangling. It's the sign of a bad principal. A principal shouldn't have to keep staff living in fear of unemployment.

Good luck whatever happens.

Treppen · 08-11-2021 2:35am

Could the issue of qualifications come into play?

Like if a Principal is stating there are no hours available in the subject for which you are qualified, but yet giving another teacher -who is unqualified in that subject- hours , then that's not on.

I recall a case way back where there was a teacher who was being told that they were being moved over to a different subject, (or maybe their CID was being refused, I can't really remember exactly) as "the hours were not there anymore", the teacher took a case and it was revealed that there was another teacher teaching the same subject for years unqualified (as many maths teachers were at the time) . What ended up happening was the junior teacher had to be awarded the allocation given to the senior teacher, it had to take place Mid-Year too, so I imagine it really caused a kerfuffle in the classroom..... and staffroom 😁

fall · 14-11-2021 8:46pm

would your Principal tell you how over quota they are? Are you the only staff member effected? Has anyone new started this year that is also teaching your subject or is anyone unqualified in your subject teaching it? Has the school lost a lot of students this year? Try to find out as much as you can.

Ditzie · 01-02-2022 10:37pm

@fall on paper we are 3 over quota, however 2 of those are not currently in the school and may never return. So 1 over quota. Our student numbers had dipped, but enrolment was exceptionally high this year, with next years' looking to top that again by another 20 students. Everyone is qualified, no teacher has been hired since (for either of my subjects) and there are a lot of teachers in both departments.

As it happens, my job share partner may be going on parental leave next year so it looks like I will have no choice but to leave, I could not manage without my wages spread over the 12 months. Thanks for the advice though, I really appreciate you taking the time to help!

Treppen · 02-02-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567947#Comment_118567947

Dont give up yet, contact your union and check that everything is being done correctly.

rainbowtrout · 04-02-2022 12:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567947#Comment_118567947

Are you saying that the job share teacher is coming back off jobshare, so you would just have your own 11 hours and then blocks of hours when she goes on parental leave during the year?

Birthrates peaked in 2009 which would be this years intake. It remained high for about 3 more years, which translates as high intake of students into first year until 2024 and then we will see a drop off in numbers again as birthrates fall for the next 10 years. So your school may not be over quota next year. If the numbers coming in are higher than the ones going out then the teacher allocation for the school goes up. If those teachers who are out at the moment don't come back then the over quota problem disappears. Wait and see.

Ditzie · 05-02-2022 1:00pm

@rainbowtrout they're taking the entire year as parental leave, so the 11 hours of theirs I have would essentially be subbing, I would no longer have any of my wage spread to cover holidays. They rang me to inform me and said the principal mentioned advertising a 22hr subbing contract for it, entirely in their other subject (which I do not have) to entice someone to cover it.

I had 11 hours Covid hours last year, however this year I do not have them even though there are 800 of them available. Myself and another staff member in the same position believe we purposely weren't given them again because we contacted the union. I have 11 hours job share and the other 11 are a combination of a sick leave and 2 maternity contracts, so I only get paid for 11 hours during the holidays, which I'm struggling with tbh.

I hope that makes sense, because it's quite convoluted! As you say, I highly doubt we'll be over quota but I cannot afford to wait and see because it could mean I only have 11 hours of subbing next year... I'll have to apply for other jobs while I wait unfortunately.

rainbowtrout · 05-02-2022 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585872#Comment_118585872

To be honest, you could keep fighting this and I know you said you like the school but it looks like the principal just doesn't want to give CIDs to anyone. It's probably time to cut your losses and look for a school where you will be treated properly.

To be, or not to be (given a CID)…

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