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Is religion merely failed science?

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    #62
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088956#Comment_118088956

    There we go again. Theory 🤣



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    #63
    randd1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭randd1


    Religion is not “failed science”. It’s not a science at all.

    Science relies on fact, religion relies upon the stupidity of man.



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    #64
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,494 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089740#Comment_118089740

    Like I said - and you predictably ignored - you need to educate yourself instead of repeatedly spouting scientifically illiterate logical fallacies.

    Gravity is a theory, but you still fall down.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #65
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,494 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089728#Comment_118089728

    Now you are misrepresenting what evolution is. But by all means feel free to disprove it with valid observations and deductions - that is what the scientific method is about, after all. Trying to squash reality to fit within the confines of your bible isn't going to work.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User] 


    Somebody needs to fix the quote function


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    #67
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089728#Comment_118089728

    Really?

    That'll be news to biologists, so. You can observe evolution in action - the results of 'survival of the fittest' in some species - in as little as 15 generations. There was even a story on (I think) the RTÉ news app recently (as in literally the last week), about some herds of elephants being observed to no longer grow tusks. Survival of the fittest in effect - the ones with big, long tusks get poached. The ones with smaller/no tusks live longer, therefore breed more, therefore spread their genes more.

    Try reading some Dawkins. No, really. His biology books give many more real-world, proven examples. I can't remember which book offhand I read, probably one of 'The Greatest Show on Earth', or 'The Selfish Gene', but he gives examples of observed rapid evolution. There's the famous silver fox experiment: The silver fox domestication experiment | Evolution: Education and Outreach | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

    Dawkins outlines another experiment where dark-coloured fish are taken from a river with a dark riverbed and introduced to a river with a light-coloured riverbed. Within a few generations, their offspring have evolved to also be light-bodied.

    So yeah, evolution is real, and observable.

    Judging by your other posts, you should also try to understand what the word "theory" means when you're talking about scientific theories. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

    Post edited by TaurenDruid on


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088939#Comment_118088939

    There was a bit of a sideways reference there to the holocaust. Maybe it was a bit too subtle.



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    #69
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090469#Comment_118090469

    I Have to say when you mentioned the elephants as proof of evolution I stopped reading. I read the article as well. They are still elephants. They haven't become anything other than elephants.



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    #70
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090551#Comment_118090551

    Ah. Ok. Not many people will admit to being willfully ignorant, but it seems you're the exception...



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    #71
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090589#Comment_118090589

    So tell me what are the elephants now that they are elephants without tusks.

    Have they changed species. Because that's what evolutionist will tell me evolution is.

    A lump of slime becoming a man.



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    #72
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090618#Comment_118090618

    I'm confused. Are you actually of the opinion that one day a creature that's a member of one species - say, for the sake of argument, an elephant - gives birth to another animal that's a completely different species?! Let's call it a neo-elephant. No. That's not what happens, and I didn't say it did.

    Speciation takes place over many generations. There is no point at which you can point to a one particular specimen between ancestor and latest animal and say "The parent was definitely a member of the elephant species, but this one is a different species from the ancestor, a neo-elephant."

    What has been observed and reported on is the effects of natural selection, in just a small number of generations, that leads to speciation. AKA evolution. Silver foxes with curly tails, floppy ears and round snouts - and differently-coloured coats.. Dark-bodied fish becoming light-bodied (and vice versa). Tuskless elephants. The peppered moth population changing from 2% dark to being 95% dark.

    Or, leaving aside natural selection, you can look at mutation. if you want to look at lots and lots of generations - how about Richard Lenski's experiments with E.Coli? 31,500 generations of E.Coli, in fact, where mutation led to a strain of E.Coli that can absorb citrate ("wild" E.Coli can't).



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    #73
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082436#Comment_118082436

    Good post. Anyone who uses terms like "scientifically proven", are not scientists. Maybe in marketing or such like

    Science is confined to the scientific method, as you explained, but that is its strength.

    Religion like philosophy proposes ideas and thoughts, which can be very useful in it's own right in helping to understand the human condition. Science must follow empirical evidence. This does not allow for dogmatic truth.

    We are ultimately limited by our intellect (when I say our intellect I mean really smart people) so the entire workings of the universe may be beyond us, but that is OK. However it is only through scientific investigation that we will understand as much as is humanly possible.

    Post edited by joe40 on


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    #74
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090791#Comment_118090791

    Mutation within a species is not evolution. A light moth mutating to reflect its surroundings is still the same species of moth.



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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This thread is like ADHD. Is creationism not exclusive to one particular branch of Christian fundamentalism? Most Christian faith believes in some form theistic evolution, ie a God which created the universe and all that's in it, and therefore compatible with the laws of nature and gravity as being divinely designed.

    The references to days and weeks in the bible have numerical value in the original Hebraic scripture and are significant for what that represents. For example, the word Sabbath is derived from the number 7-Shabbat (God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th) but is a reflection of the word for rest, which was a commandment given by the Abrahamic God. (to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy: they are commanded to rest one day a week)

    There's way too many religions to all be tarred with the same brush, and most of them would nare be considered a form of science. Philosophies, laws, historical transcripts maybe but I think the only religion which considers itself a science is scientology (do they? I dunno).



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    #76
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091399#Comment_118091399

    ...

    Right, so. Give us your definition of evolution, then...



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    #77
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,236 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118086336#Comment_118086336

    Theories are educated guesses that have both deductive and inductive empirical data that suggests support for, or against, the theories (see Wallace’s Wheel of Science). Unlike faith based theological perspectives that generally require unquestioning true believers to sustain them, theories subject to the scientific method are constantly questioned and subject to revision or falsification (see Karl Popper, et al).

    The theory of evolution thus far has had a preponderance of empirical data that suggests support in general. Since proposed it has withstood continuous attempts at falsification to this day. Without going into a ponderously conceptual discussion of theory construction, including estimates of reliability and validity in terms of how the theory of evolution suggests useful explanations for our natural world, it can be said to facilitate praxis.

    For example, the fields of biology, medicine, paleontology, etc, have greatly advanced by the empirical generalizations suggested by evolutionary theory. That is not to say that the original theory has not been subject to revisions in a way consistent with Wallace. It has. But in general it has not yet been falsified and still has utility to help today’s scientific explorations.



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    #78
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081042#Comment_118081042

    No it doesn't assume. Alway evolving. Had some so call scientist that think previous century scientist would not graduate in a current BSc.



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    #79
    vriesmays
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays


    Going to daily mass is better for your mental health than taking antidepressants.



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    #80
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097724#Comment_118097724

    Nope. It may be better for your mental health (I'll assume you have tried both), but anecdote != data, and what works for you is not for everyone. I would assume going to daily mass is pretty **** useless for a Jew, a Hindu, a Muslim or an atheist.



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    #81
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,494 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The usual "but religious people live longer" crapola - comparing people who are able to regularly get out of the house and meet their peers with people who can't (or won't), and then coming to the conclusion they desperately wanted.

    Just getting out of the house and meeting people on a regular / daily basis is good for you. Nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #82
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103187#Comment_118103187

    Yup. I'm a social creature - Parkrun of a Saturday morning and a regular weekly pub night works for me :-)



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    #83
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,494 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Carrying out the miracle of turning wine into water 😁

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #84
    vriesmays
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097885#Comment_118097885

    I don't take tablets. Engaging with religion has been shown to improve one's mental health. Antidepressants reduce the symptoms and make you fat.



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    #85
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,156 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126946#Comment_118126946

    Battling religion constantly is probably not going to do your mental health much good.



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    #86
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126946#Comment_118126946

    Ah, yes, the studies that conclude that it doesn't actually matter what religion you engage with - Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Satanism, they all correlate to roughly the same result? Yeah. I've got to say I did miss the sense of community when I stopped going to a church. Long since replaced once I found my tribe, I'm glad to say. Others do the same with the local sports club or the like.



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    #87
    vriesmays
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays


    You think the local sports club with a bunch of gaa twats can form a deeper bond than embracing religion.



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    #88
    vriesmays
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118127930#Comment_118127930

    You think engaging is the same as battling.



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    #89
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131070#Comment_118131070

    Ah, irony. A metal, like goldy and silvery.

    Well, y'see - there's people who follow religion. Some of those would be the kind of judgemental, hypocritical **** who'd use terms like "bunch of gaa twats" about people they don't know.

    (Personally, I'd rather not be like that.)

    Then there's the communities formed around hobbies and shared interests, the arts, sports clubs - yes, including gaa - where people from all walks of life start off being there there for a common shared interest, that often develop into genuine, lifelong, friendships and real communities. Tends to be less hypocrites around, too.

    That can absolutely happen in churches and organised religions, of course. Rare enough, though, where people turn up once a week for an hour, in my experience, but it can happen.



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    #90
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,236 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131070#Comment_118131070

    Depends on individual values, differences, and needs. Gives rise to the old cliche: Does one shoe size fit all?

    Further, does it have to be an either/or decision? Can someone derive meaning and satisfaction from both at the same time?



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    #91
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,863 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Religion is about power, money and access to children.



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