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Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    yeah its a wait and see for me. I know what Im doing now and it will be blended for the next few weeks. Not having flexi only impacts me when commuting - getting to work is the big concern. Not ideal really



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We still have flexible working hours, in the sense that we can choose our start / lunch \ leaving times, in fact we're being encouraged to stagger these times as much as possible so there are less people in the office earlier / later in the day. We're just not allowed to work up extra hours towards flexi leave. Any extra time we put in, we simply lose it.

    Are you being asked to adhere to a 9:15am start with 5:45pm close and 1:15hr for lunch? 😲



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    Things are still being worked out as we dont clock in and out when not on flexi (we just clock in once) so I think it could be 9am - 4.30pm with 1/2hr for lunch. I eat my lunch at my desk so dont need long. Ive worked flexi for so long and havent commuted for so long its hard to know about start time - I just dont know how long it would take to get to work every day on public transport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    We got our survey results. Needless to say most don't want to go back to the office or would be happy with a day or 2 a month in the office.

    Let's see them ignore the results now. 🙂



  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭James2020App


    As a matter of interest around what percent are we talking? Like 80% or 60% wanting flexibility?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Absolute Zero




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I'd have to check but it was 80 plus as far as I can remember.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not a member of the civil service, but my wife is a public servant and I have friends working in the civil service.

    I hope they won't but I believe that they will ignore it and your union will fold on the matter.

    Among other things like certain politicians saying that you don't do any work when at home, they will be getting complaints from pub, deli and cafe owners near your offices that their trade and takings will be down because ye aren't there. A fact that some politicians also have financial stakes in some of these types of businesses will also be another factor.

    My wife has been working in their office through out covid as what they do cannot be done from home and that will always be the case so any changes won't affect her team in the day to day other than loss of overtime so they simply won't do any if that is the case. Everyone will now be back in the office come October 22nd with no working from home option as management have said that they don't have guidance from government on such arrangements. Given that a couple of people in the main office buildings who contracted covid in early 2020 were told by their manager not to inform their colleagues with who they shared offices with in order to avoid panic and have people present for work, I expect it to be a sh1t show on the 22nd.

    In relation to the lack of flexi time and not being paid overtime, so much for the power of your union that is often talked about specifically FORSA, (my wife and her team are represented by a different union) in allowing it to continue. A friend who is an AO has been working on average seventy hours a week with no lunch most days including weekends for the last four months due to several technical issues and projects coming due and has been told no overtime or time in lieu will be given, while the external contractors on his team who are on double his salary get one or the other as any overtime they do has to be signed off on before hand.

    His average weekly hours since he joined the civil service are in the fifties as his department don't have the required number of staff for the workload and the contractors won't do overtime unless it is signed off on first so they are out the door at the end of their shift.

    In contrast the company I work for has said that we will not be back in the office until March 2022 at the earliest and all staff will only have to do two days in the office on alternative weeks. It won't apply to me as I've always worked from home unless I felt like going into the office, and the only thing will be that after March if I want to go in I have to book a desk in advance.

    I don't work a minutes overtime unless I have written confirmation from my manager before hand that I will either be paid for it or given time in lieu.

    The simple fact is that despite what ever work ye do in the civil and public service and I believe it is important and vital work in the main, you are not appreciated by either the politicians and a lot of the public that you serve. Even if most of the public did appreciate ye, attention is given to those like ISME who have some members in trouble with Revenue over tax and covid payment fraud, that don't as they are the ones complaining the loudest.

    So what ye want in terms of working conditions such as working from home and better pay will be ignored for votes and other factors, as anything given to ye will be used as a reference by any other unions who happen to represent workers (often low paid) in consultations with private sector employers who won't let their staff work from home.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    I do worry about what forsa are at re blended working they seem to have folded to everything so far since covid that DPER have decided



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  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What has your union representative said in relation to this and the results of the survey?

    If their members don't push them on stuff like this and make it a regular talking point they may well still fold but can't claim that no one really seemed to want it because no one brought in up with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,960 ✭✭✭billyhead


    I echo with everything DublinMeath said in that the Government will be pushing for civil servants to return to the workplace sooner rather than later.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I can understand that some people want to be back in the office for various reasons such as those who are renting and may not have an adequate set up, like the social interaction and being in town so they can head to the pub after work etc. The few times that I used to go in were just to have a long lunch with some of the team, but given 3/4 of my team work in other European countries and the states, it's not like I can physically interact with them in an office anyway.

    It also means that local businesses receive the money that I would otherwise spend in Dublin. When I used to have to go to the office daily, I did my shopping including food in the nearest places to the office and only used the local shops for items that might have been forgotten or need at the last minute for a meal. Same as eating out in restaurants, going to the cinema etc all done in Dublin on a Friday night, because I was already there and the missus could drive up and drive us home afterwards. Since I've been working from home over the last five years or more, we now do all these activities in the closest local towns to us.

    There are other long term benefits to blended working for those that can do it, for both the employees and the employer. These include increased staff morale and improved productivity, better physical and mental health, reduced expenses and environmental benefits amongst others shown in multiple studies around blended working for those that want to cite them to their union representatives and push them on blended working become the norm.

    It won't be popular with some people in the general public, but given some people just have a bee in their bonnet because they either failed to get a job with ye or just swallowed the whole U.S. based libertarian economics bs, and will complain about ye even having jobs in the first place, so ye might as well fight for something that has benefits both for you, your families and your local communities among others.

    Blended working isn't going to be possible for people like my wife who due to the very nature of their work simply cannot do it from home. She does however see the benefit of it being in place for others and wouldn't begrudge them it, as she does the job she does because she loves it. I would however like to see additional benefits either financial or additional statutory leave given to those in both the private and public sector who simply cannot do their job from home.

    Such a practice is in place where a friend of mine works. Their field service engineers have to travel to customer sites and cannot work from an office never mind from home. So they get an additional five days annual leave compared to the office based staff, and given that they have at times to do twelve hour plus days due to travel time to and from customer sites, can head home but be on call until four o'clock on days they manage to get their calls finished early.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 katiem111


    I started in the CS Nov 2020. I'm hanging on for the next 6 wks until probation (12 mths?!) is over then requesting a transfer. My EO is a control freak with an inferiority complex having been effectively demoted, and I'm now her sole victim, our TCO having escaped. The petty mindedness is appalling and the need to constantly remind me she is my boss is demeaning. I don't want her job, I would just like to do mine without her constant badgering. I'm 57, worked in an accountancy practice for 20 years, was payroll manager and accounts in a hotel for 15. If it wasn't for Covid, and lack of job security, I would never have left.

    I've compiled a list of the things she's said to me and if she gets in my way, I will bury her. I'd hate to think this kind of shite goes on in other departments. Everyone deserves respect at work, but I think some of these people are institutionalised and the sooner they retire the better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Kamu


    Is this an internal transfer or mobility Katien111? as you have to be in the role/position two years before you will be accepted for mobility.

    Once your probation is over, go straight to your HEO and; have a word with them, that sh1te should not be accepted at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 katiem111


    Thanks for your support! I'm looking for internal transfer as I know mobility is not an option yet. It's been particularly difficult as I'm far from home, there is only me and my EO in the section, and the rest of our dept are not returning to the office until 26th October, none of whom I've met...I have a number for the employee support person, whatever the official name is, so will start with her. I'm completely demoralised, and any effort to seize the initiative and think for myself is stamped on. I'm not confrontational, despite the bravado in my previous post! I'm happy to have my role explained to me and just get on with it. Honestly, if I could get my old job back I'd take it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Unfortunately there's a lot of that going on in the CS. Your happiness in a role is directly related to your manager. And from what I hear things are crap in a lot of places. People who are good at filling in an application form and interviews aren't necessarily good at actually doing what they say they can do in the interview.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I hope you applied fro mobility on your first day. You are stuck in the role 2 years



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 katiem111


    I did it a few weeks later but at the rate of current movement it will be at least another two years before any of my choices come up. Hoping to get garda civilian or social welfare in my home town...only two choices available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 katiem111


    True enough. My fear is because my EO and me are the only two in the unit I won't be allowed to transfer. Roll on my permanent contract...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,960 ✭✭✭billyhead


    So has anyone can back to the office yet on a full time or blended basis and has it been optional or mandatory?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45 frenchman


    I see Dept of health allowing staff to wfh indefinitely. Interesting. Even if they want greater office attendance in an eventual blended policy will be hard to roll back from this, I'd say.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I believe most departments have staff back in the office at least one day a week (mandatory), including Health. My dept were planning to increase the number of days in November, but due to increasing case numbers it was decided to continue the "cautious" approach for now.

    However, the decision taken by Department of Health to tell its staff to return to working from home full time indefinitely in response to rising case numbers, may change this.

    Department of Health staff told to work from home indefinitely (irishexaminer.com)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    We're 1 day a week and it's totally voluntary.

    Most opting to stay home. Will be reviewed again next spring



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It will be interesting to see if anything changes now, that Health have pulled back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I think too much is being made of the "indefinitely" thing, all that may mean is no defined end date for pandemic related WFH. If Covid cases/hospitalisations were to drop dramatically within the next month, some senior people will be gagging to get staff back to offices. And any complaints about "but you said indefinitely" could be brushed off.

    Statements, assurances and predictions mean nothing. How many times have Tony Holohan and others been way off with what they said during the pandemic

    That's why, In relation to WFH I keep coming back to the Right to Request Remote Work legislation. If this legislation is strong and there is the prospect of a trip to the WRC, that is the only thing that will dissuade public service managers who are dead set against WFH.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,960 ✭✭✭billyhead


    Isn't there meant to be a civil service wide blended working policy published shortly?



  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭exitstageleft


    Yes, but I get the impression that civil service shortly and everyone else's shortly run to different timelines.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    DPER and the Unions are currently in negotiation on the framework that all Departments must work within. That framework is due to be delivered this month, and Departments have been instructed to have their blended working policy in place by Q2, 2022.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Notified by email this evening that the one day a week in the office is cancelled and everyone is back to full time WFH with immediate affect, indefinitely. No one can attend the office unless it is approved in advance by their PO, and for strictly necessary purposes only.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly




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  • Registered Users Posts: 44 katiem111


    We prepared our offices for returning staff 3 weeks ago after building works. Out of approx 200, maybe 50 came back staggered over 2/3 days. Next week, that will prob drop to about 20 per week. POs and APs most likely to show and a few with crap broadband. I'm still in 5 days pw...🤨



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    I understand that DPER telling their staff to expect to be in the office for a minimum of 3 days a week, with at least one 'anchor day' where the team are in together.

    I expect that different Departments will end up with more or less than that, depending on their needs. It might also give rise to an internal war for talent, and I think people are more inclined now to articulate the type of flexibility they want or move to another Department which might suit them better.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I 100% agree with your point about internal wars for talent, and said much the same myself to colleagues when we were talking about it.

    Positions in Depts or offices with customer facing roles which won't be able to be done from home, will find it hard to retain staff, when they can look for mobility to a Dept with a more flexible policy. Of course, some won't mind full time in the office, but a lot will.

    Thats going to be a major sticking point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    How is this working in places effected by the cyberattack? We had our one day WFH taken away because of that, and they are not going to be providing any WFH going forward for security reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Still no word on the Right to Request Remote Work. The report on the public submissions was published in August and the legislation was supposed to be in by the end of this year. Another Varadkar spoof job?

    If, as speculated in this thread, the CS/PS is planning a minimum 3 days a week in office for everyone, that is pathetic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,960 ✭✭✭billyhead


    I doubt the 3 day a week will come into play until March or April anyway the way this virus is spreading.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I deal with all departments in my job and its interesting how things have changed. Last year people hated WFH. Now no one wants to go back and those who are in the office generally wish they weren't. There are of course rare exceptions



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    No idea, the HSE is not part of the civil service (that's a totally accurate yet completely useless answer, but I did do PQs back in the day 😀 )

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭James2020App


    Six months on from starting this thread, and not far away from 2 years since we have been working from home and the number of days that will have to be spent in the office every week in the future is no more clear than it has been at any stage!

    Any update on that WFH Policy that DEPR were apparently working on?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    We were told on several occasions by spoofer Varadkar that legislation re: the right to request remote work would be in place by the end of 2021. No sign of it. I wonder if this delay is related to the WFH policy for the public service that DPER is apparently working on.

    There is speculation in this and other threads that PS WFH policy will be 3 days minimum in the office. That would not surprise me as it would give comfort to the anti WFH dinosaurs that all staff are in the office for "most" of the week and therefore not "getting away with too much".

    3 days per week in an office for staff who could objectively do their work just as effectively at home would be a load of rubbish.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Different depts are saying different things, separate to DPER somewhat surprising many CS HRs with their "three days a week" release a while back

    Answer is its too soon to tell.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Bit of a sweeping statement that last year people hated working from home

    The widest survey i saw across CS had "some form of mixed" by far the most popular preference and that was in the first few months of the arrangement

    All pointers since say that this has only firmed up and if a similar survey went out again id expect that 1 day a week or wfh unless necessary to attend periodically for a specific purpose would garner the vast majority of picks



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is the latest I've heard.

    100% full time remote working for civil and public servants was never on the table as an option. So anyone still holding out for that is going to be disappointed.

    Hybrid working was always the plan, and everyone who can will be expected to work at least some of the time at home - but local arrangements will be allowed for those who cannot WFH or who wish to opt out.

    Every department has (or is supposed to have) a working group set up on this, and also worker representatives appointed that feed back to DPER.

    As far as I know, negotiations are ongoing (including Unions) but the curve balls thrown by delta, and now omicron, have set everything back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,960 ✭✭✭billyhead


    So is the provisional view it will be 3 days WFH?



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭BhoyRayzor


    A general framework is needed, I think it will be down to each PO to determine the roles in their branch that can be done from home, either wholly or partly, long term. Most other arrangements need to be signed off by them anyway. I don't know what the argument/excuse is going to be used given the 2 year sample proving that a role can done done remotely but I guess they can use the long term unknown aspects.

    For those with a decent commute, 2 days in the office would be the max I think most would accept, a happy medium of sorts. There's going to be a lot of people sitting in the office thinking 'why am I here when I could be doing this at home'.

    As an aside, it's a great opportunity for a modern form of decentralisation, instead of relocating a role to a location it can be relocated to the internet.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    A general rule like that three days per week could potentially be the worst of both worlds, not good for those who can't or don't want to WFH and not good for those who can and want to WFH. They really need to look after employees, within the requirements of business need of course. No point in forcing people to be either at home or in the office when not necessary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭Sarn


    As highlighted by Loueze, the option to work in the office full time will be there. At least that has been confirmed in our office. Otherwise they run the risk of health and safety issues where an employee highlights concerns that are not addressed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭exitstageleft


    It would be nice if they just asked people what they wanted to do themselves. If you can do the job at home, do it. If you want to be in the office, go for it.

    Surely once the work is getting done that should be the end of the matter.

    Insisting on 3 days in and 2 out is a one size fits all attempt at a solution to an issue that necessitates flexibility. Perhaps with a project due you might want to be in the office 4 or 5 days to get it over the line. On the other hand, traveling in just to say you're at your desk seems entirely pointless.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes, that is what we've been told as well.

    And from what I can gather, there will not be any hard and fast rule that everyone must do "X" set amount of days in the office, each and every week.

    The organisation is too vast for there to be a rigid "one size fits all" policy on WFH as what may work for staff in D/Health, for example, may not work for staff working in D/SP.

    There will be guidelines and recommendations - a Framework - which will eventually come down to local senior management to implement across their own department as best they see it fitting their Department's business needs.



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