Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Couple of updates from Tony Connelly,

That is the UK statement, you can select the link for more tweets. The EU reply,

Feels like we have been here before, where both sides are not going to move. Will have to see how this develops but anytime these type of deadlines have been approaching then a solution has been found.

Feels like we are finally entering some sort of end game.

The people who are looking can see it and the ones who are never going to see it can't. Polls would indicate a turning middle though

For certain : I can't see how the four nation UK can survive Brexit. It's clearly a right wing English nationalist project, meaning the Scots and Northern Irish have little or no future inside the union.

I can only conclude that Cameron thought the referendum was literally impossible to lose. Any sort of close result and the Celtic nations vetoing Brexit would leave the UK at high risk of the union breaking up.

Which one was the Brexit bill ?

If that was Article 50 then Corbyn didn't vote against it. He abstained from Johnson's bill but that was at the time he was suspended

The more this Tory government shames itself, the more pro Scottish independence sentiment I seem to see on twitter. Scots (and of course millions of English) are embarrassed to be represented by these crooks and despite the economic risks of Indy, they are drawn to it so as not to carry the shame of being British these days.

Also, the EU aspect was used to deliberately mislead people into voting to stay in the UK. People were told by Scottish Conservatives / unionists and the right wing press that Scotland would have to leave the EU if it voted for independence - the very same people who are now imposing their wretched Brexit on them.

Barroso was unwise to make those comments, but that doesn't get the Scottish unionists or Tories off the hook for a moment - they were the ones who held the referendum and used the 'pro-EU' angle to keep the Scots in the UK.

Cameron and Osborne were adamant remainers, you couldn't put a cigarette paper between them and the EU Commission at the time on most issues.

A majority of Tory MPs voted remain and their donor list was a copy of those who funded remain.

I'm adding that to your point rather than disagreeing.

What Scottish conservatives and unionists were saying about the EU was factually true however.

If Scotland voted to leave the union in 2014 it would have been out of the EU, and the rUK would still be in.

Remember an EU referendum relied on the conservative party getting back into government in 2015.

So in September 2014 you not only did not have a Brexit referendum on the horizon but it was also predicated on the Tories getting back in power.

Brexit was a long way away in September 2014, Scotland being out of the EU by virtue of independence was not.

Scotland is likely to vote for independence whenever it next gets a chance, but that decision will come down to a single factor, EU membership, but there is no guarantee that membership will be swift or easy.

The sanctimonious drivel come out of Frost and Johnson about the French fishing disagreement.

Them calling out the French for failing to abide by a treaty and international law!

IMO it simply reinforces that there is no amount of negotiation or working with this crowd. They will do whatever suits, regardless of how that may be in complete contraction to their previous positions.

I notice there is quite a big backlash against the Telegraph and others deliberately mistranslating a letter from the French PM to VdL about the fisheries dispute.. People rightly pointing out the motivation behind this is nasty and designed to whip up hate for the French.

It's definitely not cool - deliberately mistranslating and misrepresenting what someone said in another language in order just to stir things up is not a good look. It seems solely designed to enrage the Brexit followers even further.

It's a scary read looking back on it. Reminds me a lot of the Celtic Tiger where some people were making very good point which now look like they could read the future they are so accurate but at the time were told to "shut up or F off" by many

That would be an interesting tactic, it would draw the UK back in tiwafs some form of customs union with the EU, possibly might persuade some regretful brexiteer voters to vote for independence in order to get the UK back in ?

Or am I talking gibberish

Yes, Cameron didn't wish the UK to leave the EU (which was still an out-there position at the time I believe). However I don't think you could hold positive views of the EU, and also get to be the leader of the Tories. Not possible. That was why the Conservatives left the centre right EU parliament grouping. They didn't feel comfortable in a group where most of the parties in it (like our own FG) would be very EU-supporting and position on the EU was important enough for them to prefer to align with authoritarian parties.

I suppose it does make Boris Johnson & his govt. look less like political extremists + obscures how much politcs of the UK has changed with Brexit to retrospectively claim Cameron was EU-friendly!

Johnson apparently once said that Cameron was far more Eurosceptic than anyone realised. He basically only wanted to remain in the EU for the trade aspect, but hated most other elements of the union. Didn't Sir Ivan Rogers say that he (Cameron) only wanted to be a partial member of the EU....one that was only in the outer rings and not part of the central core like France and Germany.

It's no coincidence that Brexit happened on his watch. He was the most Europhobic PM of the last 50 years.

Leaving the EU for closer alignment with the US is one I heard here from time to time "become the 51st state"

All from people who would be purely money driven

Yeah, lots of anger here at the time about the way the EU, and in particular German were treating us.

Well known political party which is currently the most popular in the polls very vocal about how evil the EU were,and fawing over Greece and their government at the time.