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Laws Question? Ask here!

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Comments

  • #3212
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042644#Comment_118042644

    No, he answered a different question. I didn't ask if he was offside when the kick was taken, I asked about what happened in the subsequent few seconds where Beirne retreated to being in line with Scannell. Totally different question.



  • #3213
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042662#Comment_118042662

    not really. when the kick was taken he was offside and running forward



  • #3214
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042672#Comment_118042672

    I'm sorry, will you not check the video before posting, he clearly retreated after the kick.



  • #3215
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042676#Comment_118042676

    do you accept or not, that in the pic i posted, Beirne is running forward?



  • #3216
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I do not accept it, do you not see in your pic Beirne is further forward than in the screenshot I posted after that point, just look at the video.



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  • #3217
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042799#Comment_118042799

    Well if you are going to just blatantly deny you own eyes there's no point talking to you.

    At the point at which the kick is taken (my pic) Beirne is CLEARLY running forward.

    He does not retreat AFTER the kick, as is required in the laws.



  • #3218
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042813#Comment_118042813

    What you are saying makes no sense, there is photographic and video evidence, he retreated until after the ball was kicked, then when they were both in line aftter scannell moved forward, he then advanced. I don't care about what happened before the still frame I posted, my question has nothing to do with your weird interpretation of a simple question. Good luck.



  • #3219
    Lost Ormond
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,752 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042853#Comment_118042853

    What syd says makes perfect sense and is based on both photographic and video evidence. He may have retreated but he didnt retreat enough and was still offside.

    Syds interpretation wasnt weird at all. He has the law right and his interpretation of the law is correct.



  • #3220
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042901#Comment_118042901

    SO what law are you referring to?



  • #3221
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042853#Comment_118042853

    why would you post a pic of the ball clearly 10 meters ahead of the kicker and then try to frame your argument around that? thats not when the kick happened.. and all it does is serve to discredit any argument your trying to make

    my pic is exactly when the kick happened and its undeniable that Beirne is moving forward when the kick happens.

    and as for my "weird interpretation" ?? you havent attempted to post anything in the law book which attempts to back up your claim.. perhaps thats because theres nothing there... and what i posted is exactly whats in the laws??



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  • #3222
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042909#Comment_118042909

    not only have i already numbered it, i quoted it 🙄



  • #3223
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042922#Comment_118042922

    You numbered something, where? I didn't see a numbered law.



  • #3224
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042929#Comment_118042929

    Ah come on man.....



  • #3225
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    OK, for the last time, look at the post where I posted a screenshot. show me on that where you see an offside, and why.



  • #3226
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042961#Comment_118042961

    FFS


    Just read all my posts subsequent to you posting your (misleading) photo



  • #3227
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Look, it's pointless keeping repeating myself, see screenshots below showing the point at which Beirne starts to advance after the kick and when Scannell is in line or in front of Beirne's feet.

    Scannell throwing up the ball, Beirne clearly in front.

    image.png

    Connecting with the ball, Beirne still in front, retreating facing forward.

    image.png

    Ball travelling just at edge of the screenshot, Beirne now behind the line and both of Beirne's feet now look to be behind Scannell's leading leg.

    image.png
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf9Tjs2LmRQ

    It's at 26 seconds in on this highlights reel on Munster's YouTube.



  • #3228
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    nothings changed

    he doesnt retreat AFTER the ball is kicked, which is whats required by the law.

    he retreats BEFORE the ball is kicked, but, as you yourself have confirmed, he doesnt retreat to a point at which hes on side.



  • #3229
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The law covering this is 10.6 a

    In offside position moving behind the player that played the ball.

    The only bit that's not clear is whether or not that means the feet or every part of the body.

    If it only means the feet then Beirne was indeed behind the kicker and played himself back onside before advancing after the ball.



  • #3230
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043264#Comment_118043264

    its actually law 10.4.c which is applicable here.

    ive already dealt with the "feet" aspect in my first post here, which you completely dismissed



  • #3231
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043298#Comment_118043298

    No, that's the 10metre law, that's only for where the ball lands.



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  • #3232
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043441#Comment_118043441

    oh sweet jesus I give up......

    one last time, ill bold the applicable bits under

    1. An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
    2. Interferes with play; or
    3. Moves forwards towards the ball; or
    4. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.

    law 10.4.c deals with off side from a kick in open play... which is EXACTLY the situation we are discussing.



  • #3233
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043684#Comment_118043684

    You’re quoting it without understanding what it was there for.

    thats specifically for an offside that is within 10 metres of where the ball lands.

    otherwise a players doesn’t have to retreat.

    a team mate can pass you to bring you on side without having to retreat.



  • #3234
    KBurke85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭KBurke85


    Lads move on. The game was Saturday. The try was given. Whether it should or shouldn’t have been doesn’t matter at this stage



  • #3235
    randomname2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118044093#Comment_118044093

    But the question still stands. Is a player offside if

    * They have one foot ahead of the kicker and one foot behind?

    * They have both feet behind but are leaning forward, say, with one hand on the ground in a sprint start position?

    Or in such a close call do we give the benefit of the doubt?


    I didn't see anything in section 10 of the laws referring to feet position.



  • #3236
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118044206#Comment_118044206
    https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/definitions

    Law definitions in alphabetical order, the following is under B:

    Beyond or behind or in front of a position: Means with both feet, except where the context makes that inappropriate.

    So to answer my own question, if Beirne's feet were both behind Scannell's feet, then he would have been onside.

    Hard to tell from the screenshot, but it looks like both his feet were behind Scannell's front foot at one instant, but doubtful about being behind the back foot, so he wouldn't have retreated far enough to be on side by that definition, i.e. both Beirne's feet behind both of Scannell's feet.



  • #3237
    randomname2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭randomname2005



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046336#Comment_118046336

    And I read that differently - aren't laws open to interpretation great!

    Law 10.1: A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it

    Law 10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:

    • ...
    • c: Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate .....

    From the definition of in front of (or behind or beyond), both feet are required.

    The laws state in front of so having only one foot in front of the team mate who last played the ball means onside.



  • #3238
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 522 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041992#Comment_118041992

    The short version is that the relevant rule ("an offside player may be penalised if that player was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball...@) is contingent on whether a player is in front as opposed to behind.

    By virtue of the fact that both Beirne's feet have to be in front of where Scannell is standing at the point of the kick for him to be liable to penalty, he was legitimately onside (you say in your post borderline but I think his trailing foot is ok, and anyway it was well within the ref's margin of error/appreciation to call it onside).

    The definition of "in front" does indeed require both feet to be in front, as does "behind" require consideration of both feet. The relevant rule asks you to consider whether both Beirne's feet were in front of the kicker not whether both were behind.



  • #3239
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,723 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047894#Comment_118047894

    and the definition also suggest that context is very much part of the decision making.

    ive no interest in rehashing this all again, as 'interpretation' is open to opinion, but to my eyes he was never on side.



  • #3240
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,560 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042672#Comment_118042672

    He wasn't running forward, he was running backwards until after the ball was kicked. He may have been (very slightly) offside when the ball was kicked, but in the second after the ball was kicked he retreated by a about a metre and the kicker advanced to the line. That put beirne into an onside position and allowed him to chase the kick.

    People may complain that the TMO didn't review it, he may well have seen this and from better camera angles and decided that Beirne was not offside when he began his chase

    In the letter of the laws, Beirne did everything he needed to do to make his chase legal

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • #3241
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,560 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118048029#Comment_118048029

    Your eyes are deceiving you if you think he was already running forward when that ball was kicked

    Post edited by Akrasia on

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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