Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

The whole time during the whole Brexit debacle, I think it was clear as day to Irish person the lies that were being by Boris Johnson and Daniel Cummins. The issue of the hard border was raised at the very beginning but was never mentioned to the millions of the people who were betrayed by their leaders who never gave a sh1t about us but never gave a sh1t about them either.

But while the likes of Boris Johnson and Rees Mogg betrayed their people and their country and hugging and dancing on Christmas Eve, the national of security of the island of Ireland was for the first time since being secured by John Hume and Seamus Mallon.

After all that’s what is their legacy. Fishing and Agriculture sector decimated. People divided by the lies and incitement of hatred by the biggest con I’ve ever seen. Pretty much every Brexit voter just spouted rhetoric of taking back control but couldn’t say of what, except their want of bendy bananas and three pin plugs. And then there’s this, Boris salivating over the fact that he’s giving 5.5 billion of additional funding to the NHS on its knees but left out the fact that the UK businesses must pay €7.5 billion personally just to fill out customs documents that they didn’t have to before.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/additional-54-billion-for-nhs-covid-19-response-over-next-six-months

At this stage it’s so important to blame the conman not the conned! (Credit James OBrien for that phrase).

One of the best illustrations about the divide i saw is the debate between Charlie Mullins (CEO of Pimlico Plumbers) and Tim Martin (CEO of Wetherspoons). Charlie Mullins is visibly upset about how the public has been swindled and Tim Martin just spouts bs. I’m dumbfounded about what’s occurred.

https://youtu.be/ikg1r2CqdDE

I love the fact that Frost can claim that failure to rip up NIP would be a historic misjudgement, and yet he has seemingly no notion that that very idea means that his negotiation os said deal will go down as an historic misjudgment and he has essentially thrown himself and Johnson under a bus!

It may actually become news to some folks but the US is more than capable and continually having multiple different interests at any one moment in time. The Pacific is one such interest and it suits them to use the UK on the manner they are. Equally NI is another such interest it's a defining moment in their peacemaker moniker. They won't allow the UK break that up and there is zero evidence to base your claim off. All messages from the US allign with that from all quarters.

I’m open to correction but the DUP while pro Brexit were never in favour of a hard border. It was opposed to any special status that would be different to the rest of the UK but only ultra loyalists (small minority wanted a hard border). The Irish Sea border was opposed by them as it meant separation to the rest of the UK but they wanted a soft border with electronic tagging and drones.

But open to correction and apologies if incorrect. This is the policy i thought was theirs https://www.open.ac.uk/research/news/mygration-what-do-i-need-know-about-irishuk-border-question

The US is of course interested in its most powerful long term Strategic partner in this part of the world, that being France. UK is second followed closely by Turkey and then Isreal (*non Nato), but the other NATO members in the area are all in the EU, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Czech and Slovak Republics, Poland, Germay, Greece, Baltic states ect ect. That puts the UK a long long way behind the military priorities of the US.

They won't do it because " a few of them are of irish descent" though, there are many many other reasons why, so cast aside your ridiculous simplistic beliefs in that regard.

I presume that you are joking. The soft border I.e the Irish Sea border is the one that they are vehemently opposed to as it effectively cuts it off from the rest of the UK.

The backstop is the insurance policy that there would be no hard border if no trade agreement is reached. The whole idea of a soft border was pure lies from liars like Rees mogg and borris who spouted on about electronic borders where no technology exists.

But the complete ignorance from the entrenched unionists who will cut their nose off to spite there face is the issue without really understanding what they are looking for.

Those were small skirmishes, whipped up by loyalists who were pressuring vulnerable youngsters into anti-social behaviour. It hasn't acted as a deterrent to the functioning of the protocol, and ought not to act as a deterrent to good government policy.

"Šefčovič will judge for himself the strength of opposition to the Northern Ireland protocol. When it was announced that he was to meet with academics, business and community leaders at Queen’s University Belfast, loyalists called on protesters to gather at the gates. Šefčovič said the Commission would do everything possible to minimise the disruption brought about by the protocol, which was, he reasoned, not the problem. “On the contrary,” he said, “it is the only solution we have.” While a majority in Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, many of those in the room are now adapting to the realities of Brexit, turning to their advantage the unique access the protocol gives the country to both EU and UK markets. The anti-protocol men marched up and down outside. There were about 25 of them. Paisley Sr got tens of thousands of people out to oppose the Anglo-Irish agreement in 1985 – it went ahead anyway." - Susan McKay.

Actually reading Frost's speech in full and I'm rather gobsmacked. It reads like one of Nigel Farage's rants in the European Parliament (with lots of insults against the EU thrown in).....the only part missing is the angry, shouty voice.

Bombastic and arrogant, with too many insults thrown in. Who is his audience though.....Daily Express readers? It's all very weird, picking a fight with the EU for the sake of picking a fight.

It all seems perfectly reasonable to me, and there lies plenty of responsibility on the part of the UK for close cooperation with plenty of data sharing. And of course regulations staff under the control of the EU and ECJ continues to have a say.

Reading Connollys thread, Frosts speech actually starts to make sense.

Frost demanded change, demanded that things be reconsidered in light of the actuality of implementation, and the EU has delivered.

Those amendments answer many of the day to day concerns, which is not what they want. They need NIP to fail so that NI doesn't get the best of both worlds, as they people will start to ask why GB doesn't get it.

So Frost gets his retaliation in first, basically demands the undeliverable and then has cause to tear it all up.

According to the “what it says in the papers” commentators on sky tonight and journalists on BBC , Frost , played the bully and the EU capitulated on everything as per tomorrow’s announcement, so he’s a great lad for stomping his feet and sorting out those nasty EU weaklings.

Katie Adler , said the EU have bigger worries over gas shortages, and this would all be kicked down the road with absolutely no trade war .

interesting to see some very very different takes on the same story.

This tweet is crucial though. The measures are aimed solely at NI traders and businesses, not at the rogue government / collection of spivs in Westminster.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1448030532453994501

The consent to the Northern Ireland Protocol is legislated as being the vote of the Northern Ireland assembly. Consent can be given if a simple majority of the Northern Ireland assembly (MLAs) vote in favour. This is unlike usual practice in the assembly, where decisions are normally subject to a mechanism called the petition of concern. This may be brought by 30 MLAs and requires the decision to obtain cross-community consent (with a specified proportion of unionists and nationals MLAs) to pass.

UK ministers said that as the vote is on a matter which is usually in the competence of the UK government, not a devolved matter, normal assembly procedures will not apply,[3] and the regulations state that the petition of concern does not apply to the consent motion.

Couldn’t agree more. John Hume and Seamus Mallon were really formidable men. Indeed everyone involved from David Ervine (UVF bomber turned eloquent and progressive unionist) George Mitchell, Bill Clinton, Trimble, mo Mowlam, Gerry and Martin and even Bertie and Blair were immense.

How difficult it must have been for Ervine to sit and talk with Gerry and Martin with the past so raw and painful. But the peace and security of Northern Ireland were put first. Sacrifices were made on both side but an agreement was the outcome. The knowledge and skill to draft a relatively short document at circa 40 pages that was workable and palatable to both sides.

And then you look at the Charlatans, snakeoil salesmen who blag their way through each disaster to the next with the finesse of a drunk donkey. Lie after lie after lie being fed to people. Reneging on agreements that they negotiated themselves with no understanding of what they signed. All for what? Decimation of industry, agriculture, financial services, plummeting sterling and literally no agreements on trade. It’s heartbreaking that the work the 10 above put into securing peace has been ripped up with contempt and ignorance.

Not to be suggesting anything but suprised that the IRA have'nt come out with a warning at least to the Tory government about trying to rip up the peace accord they signed up to. Along the lines of 'hey not that long ago we nearly wiped out your whole leadership, do you really want restart that again?'

The announcement of the Auksus pact essentially made the UK an adversary of China. Although China was not specifically mentioned it is clear that arming Australia with Nuclear submarines was as a counter to Military assertiveness. It has been said that there will be an 18 month scoping period to see how it works in practice.

However, it would appear to be an end to the rapidly increasing trade with the U.K. and China. Total trade in goods and services (exports plus imports) between the UK and China was £93.0 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2021, an increase of 9.8% or £8.3 billion from the four quarters to the end of Q2 2020. Of this £93.0 billion:

Total UK exports to China amounted to £25.4 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2021 (a decrease of 30.0% or £10.9 billion compared to the four quarters to the end of Q2 2020);

Total UK imports from China amounted to £67.6 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2021 (an increase of 39.5% or £19.2 billion compared to the four quarters to the end of Q2 2020).

China was the UK’s 3rd largest trading partner in the four quarters to the end of Q1 2021 accounting for 7.5% of total UK trade.1

In 2019, the outward stock of foreign direct investment (FDI) from the UK in China was £10.7 billion accounting for 0.7% of the total UK outward FDI stock.

In 2019, the inward stock of foreign direct investment (FDI) in the UK froTotal trade in goods and services (exports plus imports) between the UK and China was £93.0 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2021, an increase of 9.8% or £8.3 billion from the four quarters to the end of Q2 2020. Of this £93.0 billion:

• Total UK exports to China amounted to £25.4 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2021 (a decrease of 30.0% or £10.9 billion compared to the four quarters to the end of Q2 2020);

• Total UK imports from China amounted to £67.6 billion in the four quarters to the end of Q2 2021 (an increase of 39.5% or £19.2 billion compared to the four quarters to the end of Q2 2020).

China was the UK’s 3rd largest trading partner in the four quarters to the end of Q1 2021 accounting for 7.5% of total UK trade.

In 2019, the outward stock of foreign direct investment (FDI) from the UK in China was £10.7 billion accounting for 0.7% of the total UK outward FDI stock.

Its a big gamble to essentially lose that in preference of an as of yet unknown deal.