DART coming to Maynooth line in 2024

What will it take to get people out of their cars? How much gridlock will people endure before thinking that there must be a better way?

685 metres extra driving to get to a huge bridge doesn't sound like much. Maybe there are alternatives to sitting in a potential gridlock, such as taking the train or the bus.

Yea.... Get a bus when you're dropping kids to school with limited time to get to work (where public transport doesn't go). Then get home to drop kids to training (where public transport doesn't go).

Get off your high horse!!

The issue isn't the distance between crossings, it's the capacity of the bridge and the feeder roads around it.

You'll be stuck in traffic yourself sitting on a bus, on a bridge, that doesn't even have a bus lane!

Having attended 3 of the Irish Rail webinars (one for each of the areas from Ashtown/ Castleknock-Coolmine/Clonsilla - Maynooth), plus a number of the local politicians webinars, what came through very clearly was how many trips - across and back the rail line - communities make in their daily lives.

Not everyone is going to/from city centre and closing 6 crossing points will cause a lot of traffic disruption. When you look at the demographic along the Navan Rd, Castleknock and Coolmine etc, people have lived in these areas 30-40 years, so a bit trite to throw active travel policies their way.

Irish Rail aren't going to be putting on trains at night, they don't have clarity on off-peak train numbers and they don't have safety concerns with the level crossings, in the greater Dublin area. There hasn't been any assessment of the impact hybrid working will have on passenger numbers either.

Even if the barriers need to be down for peak commuter hours, Irish Rail should install fast lift gates, which can be used off-peak, to alleviate pinch points on the traffic bridges on the line.

Active travel and deliberate disincentivisation of car use will be felt in D15 as much as anywhere else.

Not really. The electrification of the Maynooth line won't impact any motorists in any other postcode. If I'm living in D9, D7 or Kildare, I'll be able to drive every bit as freely as I can right now.

That's all fair enough. That wasn't the point I was replying to though.

I'm skeptical enough about reductions in traffic. And depending on your route, the detour might not be "short" at all. Making people drive for longer seems to be counter productive.

In Kildare, probably, once you stay there.

In D7 and D9 just like the rest of the City, you'll see more and more blockages to private traffic to enable Bus Connects, Metro construction, quietways, mobility routes. Thats inevitable now.

This whole discussion seems very black and white. The gates will close, oh no they won’t, oh yes they will!

It seems some posters think that most people living in the D15 area work in the city and will simply get the train. Trains are brilliant at moving large quantities of people in one direction, but they are not a panacea for all commuters.

A quick google search says the population of the Greater Blanchardstown area is 120,000 people. That’s larger than Galway and Limerick and just shy of Cork. Unfortunately, the DART line is not an option for most due to the location of the line and the larger populated areas and the current lack of supporting infrastructure, in addition to alternative options being available (the bus).  

Blanchardstown is also a massive employment centre, (Blanchardstown Town Centre, Industrial estates surrounding Ballycoolin, Damastown etc). These will also not be served by the DART extension, with the BTC 2km from Coolmine and the others about 4km. Castleknock station would be similar. (I appreciate you can both cycle and potentially walk to these, but there are restrictions).

People who work in these locations do not all live in the area, with commuters travelling from all directions, including some who will be south of the railway line. As was mentioned in another thread, currently a lot of commuters get off the M50 at Lucan and travel up through Chapelizod to avoid the toll (this could be fixed if they sorted out the tolling so everyone pays for using the M50, but this seems to be a long way off). Obviously, there are people living in the greater Blanchardstown area who will be doing the opposite commute. Added to that, you have people living in Carpenterstown who potentially will have one way to cross the rail line, by passing multiple school campuses at rush hour. That is not going to end well.

For those who remember the nonsensical one way system between the roundabout at the Dr Troy Bridge and Coolmine cross, I would imagine that with the closures this would be as bad if not worse traffic in that area. At that time, it took 45 minutes to travel that distance at peak.

So, the next question is how do you propose “feeding” the DART if there are restrictions in getting to the stations? In an ideal situation, proper cycling infrastructure would be proposed and built in the surrounding areas in conjunction with the upgrade, so both kids and commuters could cycle, with proper secure facilities installed at all stations to hold 100’s of bikes, but there is no mention of this. The car park at Coolmine could be repurposed as a bike park, as it will now be redundant for a lot of commuters who previously may have parked there. Feeder buses would also be required, but good luck turning a bus at Coolmine station on Coolmine Road.

Look, I think everyone would agree that the Coolmine crossing should have been closed when they were building the Riverwood and Station Court estates, with the road at the fire station extended. But there is no forward thinking in this country. And now they are forcing this closure, without it appears addressing the other issues that will be directly impacted by the closure.

Finally, being completely facetious, for all those proposing active travel for those people impacted by the closures, surely everyone who currently gets the train will cycle into town once the canal cycleway is built, making the upgrade redundant and allowing for the savings to be used instead to install proper cycling infrastructure throughout D15! It is after all only about 12km to the city from Coolmine and it follows the same route.  

And! Busconnect will be great for getting people onto a bus and getting them into town. None of the orbital routes differ from current ones and none directly go to a train station. And if built correctly as proposed, why would you change from a bus to a train when the travel times would be similar with the bus bringing you closer to the city centre.

So the proposed DART upgrade still does not serve the majority of the D15 catchment area.

Travelling by train is much nicer and gives you mutlimodal options. Which the Bus doesn't.

Firstly, you are incorrect to say that none of the orbital routes differ.

BusConnects is all about developing orbital and local routes, and they certainly DO differ, primarily in terms of frequency, but also in days of operation, and where they go, from what is on offer currently.

The increase in frequency will make them a viable alternative to using the car for some local journeys. I accept not all, but it's a big improvement.

Specifically in Dublin 15:

• The N4 will follow the current 17a route as far as DCU, but will then go directly along the length of Collins Avenue to Docklands. It will operate every 10 mins all day. It will connect with the N6 in Finglas which will serve Charlestown, Ballymun and the points along the rest of the eastern half of the current 17a every 10 minutes.
• The N8 will offer a direct connection from Blanchardstown to Dublin Airport and Clongriffin every 30 minutes.
• The W4 will operate throughout the day and offer a direct connection to Liffey Valley, South Lucan, Clondalkin and Tallaght via the M50 toll bridge, serving Grange Castle and the eastern side of Citywest. It will operate every minutes in the morning and evening peak, and every 30 minutes off-peak.
• The L61 will be a new circular route linking Blanchardstown SC, Hartstown/Huntstown, Clonsilla Road, Blanchardstown Village, Blanchardstown Hospital, Ballycoolin and TUD Blanchardstown. It will operate every 15 minutes all day.
• The L62 will link Blanchardstown SC with Tyrrelstown, Finglas West and Broombridge every 15 minutes at peak and every 30 minutes off-peak. It will connect with another new orbital route N2 at Broombridge,
• The L63 will link Damastown, Ladyswell and Mulhuddart with Blanchardstown SC every 15 minutes.
• The L64 will operate from Blanchardstown SC to Dunboyne via Littlepace every 15 minutes via a more direct route than the 270.
• The L52 will continue to link Blanchardstown SC and Clonsilla with Lucan as per the 239, but will be re-routed to Adamstown Station. It will operate hourly.

The four constituent routes that form the B Spine (B1, B2, B3 and B4) will each operate every 15 minutes all day. Three of these offer local connections around D15 from Blanchardstown SC:

• The B1 to Ongar via the Ongar Distributor Road
• The B2 to Ongar and Littlepace via Huntstown, Hartstown and Clonsilla
• The B3 to Tyrrelstown via Ladyswell

The three radial routes that will serve Blanchardstown SC to/from the city via Castleknock (not integrated from a timetable perspective with the B Spine), and which all offer different local connections within D15 will all have increased frequencies too.

Finally the 36 which serves Rathborne in Ashtown will operate every 15 minutes throughout the day to/from Ballsbridge.

Blanchardstown SC will have a proper bus station developed to offer a hub for the local bus network.

As for serving the DART, by the time DART+ actually happens in D15, some of the routes will probably change to feed into the DART line, or more may be added. There wasn't much point developing large numbers of feeder routes into the existing rail service while the loadings on the trains were over-capacity. But in the meantime the B2 will serve Clonsilla Station every 15 minutes all day.

Here is the revised network for Blanchardstown - https://busconnects.ie/media/2005/blanchardstown-area-map.pdf

Well I wanted to correct the statement that you made which was factually incorrect about the bus routes. There are significant changes in frequency and routes.

Also, stop fixating on just orbital routes. All of the bus routes, be they orbitals, locals, radials or spine routes offer the ability to use the bus within Blanchardstown for local journeys, and virtually all of them will be more frequent than currently.

The expansion in frequency of all of the bus routes in Blanchardstown as part of BusConnects will make the bus an option for local journeys where people may currently use a car, which is relevant in terms of traffic.

As I already posted DART+ West will be delivered after BusConnects happens. It is quite likely that new local routes may be redeveloped further to feed into the DART when that happens. It doesn’t form part of the current proposals because the trains were already jammed full at peak times.

With the launch of the 90 minute fare, There will no longer be a fare penalty for using a bus and a train for one journey - that will facilitate greater use of local buses in time and switching between the two. Right now people have to pay two fares.

Some people might use the B2 to Clonsilla from Ongar or indeed around Shelerin Road and then a train, or others from Diswellstown take a 34 to Coolmine and then a train rather than using the bus all the way.

If buses around Blanchardstown are frequent enough then there will be modal shifting of some degree.

It is likely that DART will operate every 10 minutes throughout the day between Clonsilla and the city (every 20 mins from Maynooth and M3 Parkway) as the existing DART does between Howth Junction and Bray, with extra journeys at peak times. That will make it more attractive to use for people travelling longer distances.

There is also an element of planning for the future here and not making the same mistake as the planners did with the LUAS Green Line. As more development happens the railway is going to become busier and increased frequency will be needed.

That is not compatible with having level crossings.

Local traffic isn't a problem using Dr Troy off peak.

The problem at peak, isn't Dr Troy bridge, or Coolmine Crossing. Its the traffic.

IMO the vast major of which isn't local, its through traffic rat running.

The solution to that isn't more traffic.

The buses are only bottlenecked in certain pinch points. Everywhere they hit a bus lane, they will be a lot quicker than a car. On some routes. That said you can drive a difference route in the car, a more direct route, so it can be quicker. On some routes.

You can't fix the bottlenecks in Castleknock, or Chapelizod. You could build a hundred bridges over the canal and they will still be gridlock on the other side. There is no where for all this traffic to go. There is very little you can do to improve the capacity of the car network in D15. Expect it to get worse.

There is potential to improve the buses and the trains. Why not do it.

Please, don't elaborate.