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  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    @correct horse battery staple

    Peat has been run down because finally, somehow it took until the 21st century, policymakers accepted that literally burning the earth probably isn't the most sensible idea.

    Similarly farming provides food. Great. However we currently subsidise meat production which also happens to be destructive to the environment. Guess which meat we in Ireland encourage the most. Of course it's the worst one. If people want to eat meat then great, I rarely have a meal without some. If I had to pay a fair price (even just proportionately compared to other foods, not even removing all subsidies) I'm pretty sure I'd cut down rapidly and massively on my food intake.

    Similarly with cars. Why would anyone in Ireland want us to have high levels of car ownership? We have no industry so once tax is removed what, 80% of the price of every single brand new car sold in the country is gone from the economy. Never mind the habitat destruction, ongoing maintenance costs, incredible inefficiency of relying on private motor vehicles to provide most transport. Seeing new developments outside of my town make it pretty obvious that we're still not building with anything other than cars in mind. These ridiculously bad designs will be held up as evidence that "green" policies can't work alas.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, let us think of nuclear fission. Do you remember where your (now out date) Iodine tablets are? Or what they were for?

    The Windscale accident led to contaminated milk, which was so serious they had to rename Windscale - it is now called Sellafield, which frequently pops up as the latest nuclear discharges are admitted to - hmmm, I think that if nuclear was so safe, they would build a reactor in Hyde Park. Nuclear fision was supposed to be so cheap, they will not even bother charging for it ( a bit like water - hmm, how did that go?).

    It is not begrudgery, it is the senseless way parents drive their kids a short distance to school in an oversized inappropriate vehicle, instead of them walking or cycling. Parents could go with them. if that is considered safer. We have built little rail infrastructure in the last century, but dismantled most of it that existed at the foundation of the state. We have however made huge investment in roads, and one-off houses that need cars. Even urban areas are filled with cars parked on footpaths so the local bus service has problems getting past.

    Irish society must change, either from choice or necessity. If we reduce carbon early, then it will be less burden on society. The perceived wisdom is that we must go from diesel cars to electric cars instead of e-scooters, or PT, cycling, or walking.

    As I said, some big steps by Gov, and many small steps by people. Follow the science.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I said nothing about us running a nuclear fission plant, only Windscale did not work out, nor is Sellafield so good at it. Why would we want to run one? I am sure we could, if we wanted to.

    As for begrudgery, I can assure I do not subscribe to that kind of attitude. It is I think it is a bad practice to behave like so many parents running a taxi service for their kids.

    As for destroying Irish society - well the housing crisis is doing great work in that regard. Add a few more crises like health, insurance, public transport, long commutes, etc. etc. etc. Those will do a lot of damage to Irish society with no help from me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    With regards to nuclear, you are focusing on the things that are non-issues and ignoring the ones that will actually prevent it ever being built

    Specifically:

    • What locality do you put it in without insane objections? Objections would be fierce at the local, county, provincial and national levels so how do you get around that?
    • A 1 GW nuclear power plant will generate 27 tonnes of waste per year of operation. What is the long term (multi-millennia) plan for the storage of the waste that will be both secure and not risk impacting the water table?
    • How will that storage be paid for over that time?
    • Where will the waste storage location be?
    • How will the waste be transported and what route will it take where that route won't be blocked by objectors not wanting the material to pass through their area?
    • Same as above for the fuel.
    • How do you justify the spend on it or even garner any investment for it, when it's LCOE is way worse than almost all other alternatives?

    Everything else is irrelevant if you can't address the above questions



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,429 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The big big issue is who's paying to build it ,who's taking the financial risk , and who's gonna be there to decommission it 40 year after production -

    Hinkley c at current prices is at 21 billion - and rising - that just the construction ...


    And then obviously everyone will want it somewhere else ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,291 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    They get paid capacity payments. These are are generally expected to run for 200 hours a year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,291 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    The market runs the auction and then the system operator runs the Unit commitment system which runs the economic dispatch model, this will override the market so will chose which units to run and what configuration.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,291 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    If we were to build a 1GW nuclear plant we would have yo built another job on plant of equal size so as to have reserve should that go off line



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Nuclear power lost referendums in Germany, Switzerland and Italy. Going, going, gone.

    Build nuclear ASAP ? The French have been building Flameville 3 since 2007 and it won't be ready until 2023 at the earliest. Nuclear would arrive too late to help. And as wind, solar and storage costs plummet (Lithium ion batteries dropped 85% in the last decade, 97% in the last 3 decades ) it would be too expensive to compete.

    Please explain how we would provide financing for the €20Bn capital cost a nuclear plant without paying a ton more in bills ? figure that is given in 2012 pounds is the government's estimate that the cost of Hinkley C will add £10 per year to each household's bill. The UK were planning on building 6 nuclear plants so the plan was £60 per year, and it would still need peaking plant and spinning reserve.



    A graphic reminder of how renewables keep getting cheaper while nuclear has gotten a lot more expensive. (gas prices are volatile at the moment , but its a transition fuel , it's main usage could be replaced by insulation)

    https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeesh, things are going from bad to worse in the gas markets. Expect prices here from energy suppliers to keep climbing this winter.

    Main issues

    • Russia 20% lower supply than pre-covid. Part of this is to do with trying to "motivate" the EU to approve and open Nord Stream 2, and part is due to Russia having very low stores themselves.
    • Europe's gas store levels are at their lowest for over a decade
    • Europe's consumption is up 4% Vs pre-covid
    • Asian markets where coal is used for heat & power are running dangerously low on supplies, driving additional demand for gas. We've already seen China have a load of power cuts recently, the same is now happening in India too. India has 130+ coal power stations, 16 of these have zero days of supply.
    • The price spiked by 40% yesterday alone. One example, Pakistan paid the then record high price of slightly above $20 per mmbtu in Sept, its now hovering around $56 per mmbtu. The price stabilized only when Russia said it would look at exporting more
    • One of the largest suppliers, Qatar, has been maxed out for production for a long time. They are now spending $30 billion to increase production but it will take years before any benefit is seen.

    Some watchin for ye




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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Look at the UK or France. Both have been building fleets of nuclear plants for ages, the UK now needs to import the technology and the French are late and over budget on the ones being built in France, Finland and the UK.

    If they can't do it on-time, on-budget we certainly won't because we'd be competing for resources with them, starting late and needing way less plants so no one would do us any favours.


    Just ONE of the SIX nuclear plants proposed in the UK is under construction. That's an 83% failure rate so far.

    Moorfield (at the Calder Hall/Windscale/Sellafield site) has seen US, Korean and Japanese companies go bankrupt and/or abandon the project so it's an industry wide problem. The other four didn't get that far.

    Hinkley C is relying on guaranteed prices, and financing and financial guarantees from the UK, French and Chinese governments. We can't do that. Reunification would probably be cheaper in the long run.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    No. It could be done in many ways, each of which would require ongoing payments 24/7 to suppliers of spinning reserve and other backup. In the UK this means wind effectively subsidises nuclear as it determines how much reserve the grid needs.

    There is also the problem that you can't get 1GW as the latest and greatest reactors tend to run at 1.4-1.6 GW unless you go for an older less efficient design.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,291 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Wind isn’t dispatchable so doesn’t count as spinning reserve. You need a thermal unit equal to your largest



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,487 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    On a thread on the topic of Nuclear in Ireland over on Reddit, there was a very interesting comment there by someone who works here in Ireland in the disposal of radioactive waste (X-Ray machines).

    The poster was saying that they currently are having serious problems with this waste. Previously they exported in to Britain, but Brexit put an end to that. They have tried to export to facilities in France, Germany, etc. but they are all refusing to take it. So they are currently just storing it here, with no plan on what to do with it.

    And this is for relatively small amounts of low level radiation.

    It also showed that we can't necessarily depend on our European neighbours to help plan, build, operate, decommission or deal with the waste of a Nuclear power plant.

    Hell even the French and British can't build plants for themselves any more and are relying on Chinese help.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,647 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I don't think that we'll ever have a nuclear power plant in Ireland, the nuclear window of opportunity has closed.

    As regards disposal, the Swedes have a subsea tunnel that originates on land for storing their waste, it doesn't violate any conventions and works for them.

    As regards modern reactor design, I don't understand why countries don't replicate the French PWR reactor design that has worked well without major incident for 30/40 years ?

    France also 'stores' their waste, rather than 'burying/disposing of' it.

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/french.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    The Celtic interconnector is listed as 700MW, google is saying 100MW would power 16,000 houses so 700MW would power approx 112,000. Is that not vastly underspecced for something that is costing a billion euro? I know there are EU grants and all that but seems a massive spend for 700MW. What size is the Ireland-UK one?



  • Registered Users Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    500 MW.

    We could approach the French and offer to buy into the mess at Flamanville, with T's & Cs obviously, subject to it working. For the French it could be politically acceptable to claw back some money on it and for us have ownership of some power instead of being reliant on auctions or good will.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    All generators have to subsidise spinning reserve and backup power. It's based on backing up the largest generating unit on the grid which is nuclear. Capital costs should be really be paid for mostly by nuclear and then by each of the next biggest thermal generators before you get down to the smaller unit sizes of hydro and wind generators.

    It doesn't have to be thermal if wind isn't available, as you can also use batteries, hydro, pumped storage, waste to energy, interconnectors, and demand shedding too. Hydrogen storage and combined cycle gas means that fossil fuel efficiency is still going up.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The French design was inefficient because it allowed changes in output over ~ 5 hours to provide a hint of load balancing. Until proven otherwise the new EPR takes 10 years to build.

    High level waste is easy to store in the sense that it's so awful but decays relatively quickly that it's worth taking the trouble to keep it secure for the foreseeable future.

    The real problem is the larger volumes of intermediate waste with longer half lives. If Cro-magnons or Neanderthals had nuclear power we'd still be looking after their waste repositories.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,647 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Hasn't Flamanville proved that the new EPR design will take at least 15 years to build, costs 5 times more than planned and has safety issues?

    Is EPR that more efficient than PWR, that it will be able to recoup those billions during its lifetime?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,429 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Doesnt this apply to wind energy as well , due to its intermittent nature ? , As well as a level of spinning reserve , there has to be a back up for when the wind isn't blowing - and a level of redundancy for the back up , obviously that all costs as well ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,487 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "As regards disposal, the Swedes have a subsea tunnel that originates on land for storing their waste, it doesn't violate any conventions and works for them."

    Interestingly on this, it hasn't opened yet and the Swedish government has delayed it's opening, potentially causing the shutdown of their Nuclear power plants as they won't have anywhere to store the waste, which is currently stored in an intermediate facility.

    Also worth noting that the cost of this new facility is now running at €15 Billion !!

    So if we built a Nuclear power plant, would we also need to build a facility like this and would we be adding this 15bn to the cost of a Nuclear power plant?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,291 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    For nuclear you'd need 1.6GW ready 24/7 to take over in case of a SCRAM or transformer problem or jellyfish or whatever.

    For wind you only need to cover a single farm going offline and chances are that if it's windy other windfarms could provide that. Forecasts are getting better so it will be known in advance when wind will fall off so you can prepare for that.


    Nuclear needs other generators to provide peak power during the day. Every day. And all the time in Winter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Movement on Celtic Interconnector




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,429 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I assume that this could go ahead quite quickly one the foreshore license is granted ... ( I think the transformer station for it ,at carrigtohil ,is making it's way through planning )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Their website says they hope to begin construction 2022 with completion in 2026



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,291 ✭✭✭✭ted1




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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The sun is available 24 hrs per day 365 days a year - just not in any particular place.



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