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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route due in September 2021]

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  • Cork and Limerick Chambers reminding people of the economic benefits of the Cork to Limerick project https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40711139.html





  • More on the reasons for deferring the decision on the M20, including an interview with the project co-ordinator

    Speaking to The Corkman, project co-ordinator Jari Howard said the potential for changes in Government policy relating to transport policy have meant his team have had to rethink their modelling and assessment processes for the scheme.

    Mr Howard said an element of this was the impact that the Covid-19 pandemic has had on how people will live and work in the future. 

    “Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) has published a technical document into potential traffic projections post-Covid. We are in the process of assessing this to look at how it would impact on our previous traffic models,”he said. 

     He further pointed out that the findings of a review into the National Development Plan (NDP), which were to have been announced already, are now not due to be unveiled until October. 

    “For clear reasons any changes that may be made to planning processes could potentially impact on any final decision we make. Therefore, will need to look closely at the findings of the NDP review before a preferred option is selected.”

    “A similar scenario applies in relation to the Future Land Transport Investment Framework, which looks at the sustainability of transport related projects. That is only at draft stage and we have to look at its final conclusions before appraising our options,” he added.

    Full article here:

    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/news/decision-on-nm20-option-put-off-until-next-year-40854950.html





  • Ooh. Angry farmers who don't want to be labelled NIMBYs but want the road somewhere other than their back yards, concerned local politicians, and a Steering Group equivalent who insist the upgrade is unnecessary and that they have found a secret route that doesn't fix any of the problems but is actually way better. The greatest hits of a decade of planning delays.

    Does anyone want to start taking bets on how many years it will take before this road gets final approval (ie from the date it is submitted to ABP to the date the Supreme Court turns down the last appeal after the years-long judicial review)?



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  • As much as I feel bad that Munster is now quite behind on infrastructure projects, there does appear to be a very strong and disproportionate element of NIMBYism and outright contrarianism to progress in the South. That's not Dublin's fault or a reason to begrudge other regions who don't have the same intensity of delaying tactics that Munster has.


    This proposed project is all but certain to be delayed now for 10 years + given the buinneach broadcast from these varied vested interests today. It'll be M28 2.0. That's something that the presumable majority in the region who want progress need to strategise for and counteract.





  • It’s starting already you’ll be dismayed to hear. Apparently there’s a protest planned for tomorrow at the Cabinet meeting in Cork.





  • @HabibiLibneni I'm not sure what you're suggesting in terms of how to strategise for and counteract determined NIMBYs. There isn't really anything that can be done. Under our current system, NIMBYs can easily hold up any project with frivolous judicial reviews and appeal after appeal after appeal, and the barriers to vexatious delays are so low that they are essentially non-existent. I want development, and live about a kilometre from the N28, but while there is nothing I can do to speed up a project, there are endless ways for someone to stop it.

    The only lasting solution will be to reform the planning system to make it easier for planners to meet relevant criteria, to require ABP to deliver faster results, and, critically, to make judicial reviews very difficult to obtain. This will require erecting new barriers, eg not allowing a person to obtain a JR unless they are directly affected by the new road, narrowing significantly the grounds on which a JR can be brought, and bringing back the usual practice of the loser paying for the legal costs of the winner (currently, NIMBYs have no skin in the game, as they don't have to pay a cent of the State's costs when their vexatious appeals are rejected, even after the State has to go to great expense to defend them).

    This means significantly restricting the ability of the average citizen to stall the planning process. While NIMBYs may complain, it is indisputable that the current system is not fit for purpose, as it is too open to abuse. I was sympathetic to the argument that locals should have a say, but the M28 debacle was the last straw for me.



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  • A Facebook group supporting the M20 might be a good start. The more members the better.


    The politicians can then see just how many people are desperate for the M20 to be done. Any NIMBY,s can also see just how much people are against their frivolous objections.





  • A Facebook page supporting the M20 cannot prevent a judicial review application being filed, and has no effect on the process of that review. It also cannot prevent the findings of that review being appealed over and over and over. The only intervention which will make a real difference is preventing judicial reviews being accepted in the first place.





  • Suggestions in the media are that the M/N20 will indeed be a mix of Type 1 and Type 2 DC. That makes sense, 2+2 will suffice between Mallow and Charleville. That probably won't be part of today's announcement, will have to wait for the preferred route next year.

    My other prediction was that most of the objections will die away once the preferred route is published. Right now there are lots of peopletelling others that they will be effected by the road when in actual fact, the vast majority of those are on routs which won't be used and the narrowing of the corridor will lessen impacts further. I still expect that to be the case.





  • Agreed 100%. However these people might think twice about it if it’s obvious that there’s a huge amount of local support for it, just to show them they are in the minority.





  • From an article on todays NDP announcement in the Irish Times

    While the source said the list of roads projects from the 2018 was included there would be very strong “caveats” in terms of prioritisation, and that would favour public transport over roads. 

    An example cited was the “M20” between Cork and Limerick which will be described in the plan as M20/N20, in effect meaning that some of the route will not be of motorway grade and will be downgraded.

    “This plan will involve a fundamental switch to public transport, which should not be a surprise to anyone as the two-to-one ratio is baked in,” said the source. 

    A senior Minister from one of the bigger coalition parties agreed. “Every thing is being climate assessed. You must remember it is (Green Party leader) Eamon Ryan who is managing the Department of Transport and also the transport budget.”

    Full article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/many-road-projects-in-national-development-plan-may-never-be-completed-1.4690217





  • The N/M20 title is very simple. They have not decided on cross section/ classification yet. It allows flexibility at the next phase. I don’t think they will have short sections of motorway along the route.





  • It should be reminded here also that we talk about roads at a far more technical level here than what would be reported in the media. The vast majority of sources being quoted in the media aren’t au fait with TII’s design standards and I don’t blame them for this either. What’s reported in the next few days is best taken with a pinch of salt until confirmed by official sources





  • It's always officially been called the N/M20 Cork/Limerick. Just have a look at the home page on the project website.






  • Considering that the letter M normally comes before N, having the N first in the name would imply that there will be more N than M in the route.






  • Apparently it's still happening. Note that here they're using 'M' rather than N/M as reported in the Irish Times.



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  • What a load of rubbish. Naming convention on projects would always be old part first new part of project second





  • [b]MOD: Read Limerick74’s post above please. No more discussion of M or N unless something authoritative is in the NDP document itself. Thanks[/b]





  • The same way people are being outted/shamed/ridiculed for being anti-vax: show these plebs up for what they are.

    The likes of the M28 steering group were allowed to believe they were acting as some sort of sacrificial mediator between the meek common man who's too afraid to speak up, and the omnipotent, cruel powers that be who are hellbent on destroying the leafy bliss of Rochestown.

    If enough locals & vested interests had countered this bs in public, by attending hearings, by lobbying politicians, by gaining a counter narrative in local & national media etc, the 'steering group' wouldn't have been allowed to arrogantly assume they acted on behalf of local popular opinion.





  • Jesus. Colour me shocked hearing Brian Leddin on the News at One pro-M20.

    There’s a good amount of ambition for PT in Limerick so hopefully the requirement for funding both is recognised by all parties involved.





  • I regularly travel between Limerick and both Dublin and Galway and while the roads are lovely there's no denying that the traffic levels are very low on the mid sections of both roads and could possibly have gotten away with lower specs.





  • I travelled to Dublin from Limerick last Friday. I left Limerick at 1.30pm and at no point on the M7 did I see traffic volumes suitable for any type of single carriageway road. I was using the overtaking lane for most of the journey and I set the cruise control at 120.





  • Firstly, lower spec than motorway does not mean single carriageway. Secondly there are sections of the M7 between Nenagh and Borris-in-Ossory which only had an AADT of around 12-14k pre Covid. AADT is down 2-3k on those numbers in 2021. Those numbers are way below the requirement for a motorway. So while it may have seemed busy to you, the figures don't backup your argument.

    For the N20 I'd have no issue with a 2+2 expressway on the lighter trafficed sections as it is still a divided 2 lane road. However I don't see anything below HQDC standard (which could later be redesignated motorway) being used on the route.



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  • Why would you use the overtaking lane for most of the journey with cruise control set for 120? When I travel on the M7 I use the left lane with cruise control set at 120 and use the overtaking lane only when I need to.

    As an aside, I'd love to know what's going through the minds of drivers using the middle lane of a 3 lane motorway when the left lane is almost empty.



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