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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    A Facebook group supporting the M20 might be a good start. The more members the better.


    The politicians can then see just how many people are desperate for the M20 to be done. Any NIMBY,s can also see just how much people are against their frivolous objections.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    A Facebook page supporting the M20 cannot prevent a judicial review application being filed, and has no effect on the process of that review. It also cannot prevent the findings of that review being appealed over and over and over. The only intervention which will make a real difference is preventing judicial reviews being accepted in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Suggestions in the media are that the M/N20 will indeed be a mix of Type 1 and Type 2 DC. That makes sense, 2+2 will suffice between Mallow and Charleville. That probably won't be part of today's announcement, will have to wait for the preferred route next year.

    My other prediction was that most of the objections will die away once the preferred route is published. Right now there are lots of peopletelling others that they will be effected by the road when in actual fact, the vast majority of those are on routs which won't be used and the narrowing of the corridor will lessen impacts further. I still expect that to be the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Agreed 100%. However these people might think twice about it if it’s obvious that there’s a huge amount of local support for it, just to show them they are in the minority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    From an article on todays NDP announcement in the Irish Times

    While the source said the list of roads projects from the 2018 was included there would be very strong “caveats” in terms of prioritisation, and that would favour public transport over roads. 

    An example cited was the “M20” between Cork and Limerick which will be described in the plan as M20/N20, in effect meaning that some of the route will not be of motorway grade and will be downgraded.

    “This plan will involve a fundamental switch to public transport, which should not be a surprise to anyone as the two-to-one ratio is baked in,” said the source. 

    A senior Minister from one of the bigger coalition parties agreed. “Every thing is being climate assessed. You must remember it is (Green Party leader) Eamon Ryan who is managing the Department of Transport and also the transport budget.”

    Full article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/many-road-projects-in-national-development-plan-may-never-be-completed-1.4690217



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Limerick74


    The N/M20 title is very simple. They have not decided on cross section/ classification yet. It allows flexibility at the next phase. I don’t think they will have short sections of motorway along the route.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It should be reminded here also that we talk about roads at a far more technical level here than what would be reported in the media. The vast majority of sources being quoted in the media aren’t au fait with TII’s design standards and I don’t blame them for this either. What’s reported in the next few days is best taken with a pinch of salt until confirmed by official sources



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    It's always officially been called the N/M20 Cork/Limerick. Just have a look at the home page on the project website.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,151 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Considering that the letter M normally comes before N, having the N first in the name would imply that there will be more N than M in the route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter



    Apparently it's still happening. Note that here they're using 'M' rather than N/M as reported in the Irish Times.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    What a load of rubbish. Naming convention on projects would always be old part first new part of project second

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    [b]MOD: Read Limerick74’s post above please. No more discussion of M or N unless something authoritative is in the NDP document itself. Thanks[/b]



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The same way people are being outted/shamed/ridiculed for being anti-vax: show these plebs up for what they are.

    The likes of the M28 steering group were allowed to believe they were acting as some sort of sacrificial mediator between the meek common man who's too afraid to speak up, and the omnipotent, cruel powers that be who are hellbent on destroying the leafy bliss of Rochestown.

    If enough locals & vested interests had countered this bs in public, by attending hearings, by lobbying politicians, by gaining a counter narrative in local & national media etc, the 'steering group' wouldn't have been allowed to arrogantly assume they acted on behalf of local popular opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,900 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Travelled from Galway to Dublin yesterday. Fantastic motorway all the way. Pleasure to drive.

    Thanks to the greens drivers between Cork and Limerick won't have such a road by the looks of it. You'll get a second rate bog standard new road unworthy of a connection between two cities. And the (mostly Dublin based) greens will insult you by calling it "progress".



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Jesus. Colour me shocked hearing Brian Leddin on the News at One pro-M20.

    There’s a good amount of ambition for PT in Limerick so hopefully the requirement for funding both is recognised by all parties involved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    I regularly travel between Limerick and both Dublin and Galway and while the roads are lovely there's no denying that the traffic levels are very low on the mid sections of both roads and could possibly have gotten away with lower specs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,900 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    You could say that about any highway anywhere. Look at North America, sections of interstate with very low volumes, but that is not the point. The principle is that cities should be connected by the highest quality roads. Same on the continent.

    It's not just safety, it's a status issue as well.

    This country should have motorways connecting all cities, not just spokes out of Dublin.

    All that does is emphasise Dublin more and more as the most important place on the map and encourages more investment there than elsewhere.

    Having a motorway between Limerick and Cork is a statement in it's own right, that these are important places that can have their economies of scale in their own right.

    This needs to be done or accept that Ireland is the city state of Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    I travelled to Dublin from Limerick last Friday. I left Limerick at 1.30pm and at no point on the M7 did I see traffic volumes suitable for any type of single carriageway road. I was using the overtaking lane for most of the journey and I set the cruise control at 120.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Firstly, lower spec than motorway does not mean single carriageway. Secondly there are sections of the M7 between Nenagh and Borris-in-Ossory which only had an AADT of around 12-14k pre Covid. AADT is down 2-3k on those numbers in 2021. Those numbers are way below the requirement for a motorway. So while it may have seemed busy to you, the figures don't backup your argument.

    For the N20 I'd have no issue with a 2+2 expressway on the lighter trafficed sections as it is still a divided 2 lane road. However I don't see anything below HQDC standard (which could later be redesignated motorway) being used on the route.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,352 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Why would you use the overtaking lane for most of the journey with cruise control set for 120? When I travel on the M7 I use the left lane with cruise control set at 120 and use the overtaking lane only when I need to.

    As an aside, I'd love to know what's going through the minds of drivers using the middle lane of a 3 lane motorway when the left lane is almost empty.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The upper limit for a 2+2 expressway is 20k AADT. So pre Covid, the traffic volumes on the M7 weren't that low for a road of its type.

    The 2021 version of a motorway in Ireland isn't as highly engineered as popular belief would have you believe. The road type for the M20 will be a Type 1 DC, which starts straining around 38k AADT. It has narrow hard shoulders, narrow lanes, narrow central medians and generally low throughput junctions. It's a dual carriageway with blue signs and legal restrictions when you put it into perspective vs the original motorways in Ireland (which are much much higher spec: M50, M1 to Dundalk, M4 to Kinnegad, M7 to Portlaoise, and sporadic stretches of the M11, M20 and a few others)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Build it to motorway standards and keep the tractors off the main interurban routes. Why are we always looking to skimp on infrastructure here, where's the harm in over engineering vital projects.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Might as well close this thread down lads. This road will never be built. We're going to have to stick with our glorified boreen forever..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Yeah, you've taken my post out of context to the one I was replying to. I'm aware of the standards and I've no problem with the fact that the M7 was built as it was, nor will I have an issue if Cork to Limerick is a full motorway. However I'd gladly take a grade seperated 2+2 between Charleville and Mallow if it got the project through planning successfully / more quickly. AADT was barely over 10k on this section pre Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    It was due to the high number of HGVs on the road. I meant I spent most of the journey moving in to the overtaking lane and would have been it for long distances of 2-3km at times. I just found it busier than I thought. Certainly no tumbleweed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    I understand there are lower specs of dual carriageways but the way some are talking today the only way any improvement will happen on this is town bypasses and maybe a few local safety improvements.

    Some are saying motorway standard would not be needed for certain sections and from listening to sections of the medias coverage today I would nearly take 2+2 most of the way from Attyflin to Blarney at this rate



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Press releases seem to be calling it the M20. Would be utter insanity to build a 15 mile stretch as 2+2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    It would be insanity. The greens better be out of power when this get to detailed design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The standard any particular section of road is built to should be based on the usage on that section. The middle section of the N20 doesn't justify motorway so people shouldn't be surprised if it is not proposed as such. Just because someone wants to see motorway and somebody else agrees with them, doesn't mean that is what should happen. This thread is an awful echo chamber.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I really think people just want to see blue lines on a map.

    The problem with being rational about M20 is that N18/N17 was upgraded to motorway despite having much lower traffic.

    The section north of Mallow, south of Croom is not busy enough to justify Type 1 DC and is unlikely ever to be; a Type 2 would be more than adequate here, but there’s also an argument for keeping a consistent standard of road throughout.

    A single-carriageway road, of any type, would be unacceptable.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Blue is my favourite colour. ;)

    More seriously, if the underlying purpose of this road is to encourage more links between Cork and Limerick and help the Cork-Limerick-Galway axis to develop as a single economic unit that can counterbalance Dublin, doesn't it make sense to maintain the same cross-section? Narrowing the M20 here and there would make it the only major new-build interurban in the state to not maintain a motorway/HQDC cross-section for the vast majority of its route.

    Cork and Limerick are both expected to significantly increase in population and economic size, so presumably traffic along this route will increase significantly in years to come. Any future upgrades will be far more expensive and inconvenient than just delivering up-front. Deliberately rejecting the opportunity to deliver future-proofed infrastructure for electric zero-carbon buses, trucks, and other vehicles seems short-sighted, at best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Appallingly short sighted. Now is the time to do it right



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Latest:

     The N20 road corridor options are currently being progressed with Public Transport (Rail) alternatives as comparators. The scheme is currently at Route Options Selection stage where all the road and rail options will be considered, with the preferred transport corridor expected to be announced by the end of 2021. Subsequent to this, work on scheme design and environmental evaluation will be undertaken, in addition to the scheme Business Case, which is required under the Public Spending Code (PSC). The scheme Business Case is expected to be submitted to DPER in early 2023. Subject to its approval, the submission of the statutory documents for the project to An Bord Pleanála (ABP) will follow thereafter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Limerick74


    That’s not the latest as the announcement of the preferred option is now Q1 2022.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Thanks for the correction, my post is from the NDP accompanying documents which could have been updated less recently.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The section south of croom and north of mallow? It's a horrible section of road with constant jams in charleville and buttevant. Not to mention the farmers crossing the road with their cattle..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Nothing you have said there changes the fact that the middle section of N20 is well within the range for Type 2 DC and will remain so for a very long time. The difference in a few minutes journey time is not going to make any difference in acting as a counterbalance to Dublin. Type 2 is just as future-proofed for electric zero-carbon buses and trucks as Type 1, nice shoehorning in of buzzwords though.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Not sure that's entirely correct. Quite a few people I know do everything in their power to avoid the N20 north of Mallow when going to Limerick. They use either the M8 if going from Cork City/West Cork or the N21 if going from North Cork. A lot of traffic will flock from the alternative corridors to the M20 when its built, and it will affect traffic patterns in the area when this happens. Building a 2+2 north of Mallow would be folly especially given the volume of HGVs using the route. There is quite a bit of industry along the route (Dairygold, Dawn Meats, Lidl, Kostal, Kerry Foods) or near the route (Munster Joinery, Cadburys, Kerry (Newmarket)) and probably others I've forgotten. That's also not including the 2 busy ports at either end of the route, both of which are undergoing expansion, along with 2 international airports with cargo operations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    The motorway to Waterford is probably over engineered, but the Cork Limerick corridor is likely to be busier and provide an alternative growth pole to Dublin. Build it once and do it right from day one I say. It would be more in Ryan’s line to sort Dublin out (where I live) when people fully return to work we are back to chaos again .. no bus corridors, Metro ??, cycle lanes are poor enough, albeit a bit better than pre COVID, no park and ride etc …..

    a bit of green wash around Cork where the public transport seems to be getting a shot in the arm

    to be fair the national motorways are probably the one engineering project you can say was done well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    But on the other side there is plenty of short journey local traffic on the existing N20 which will stay there, not transferring to the new road.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    No let's not learn from our mistakes and do an m50 on it. Build it single carriageway with roundabouts, then when it can't handle the traffic update it to type 1, then update date it in 20 years to type 2.

    Whatever you says about the M17/M18 and M11, M6 after Kinnegad and other so called "overbuilt section of HQDC", they at least have some future proofing. This is a wise investment in the future. We have one chance to do the M20 (N20) right, so HQDC type 2 with a land take where necessary to allow for future upgrades.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I notice in the press that all of a sudden this project has jumped from 1 Billion euro to 3 Billion euro, with no explanation as to the why?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    A clever ploy by Ryan showing that the muppet learned something from his Party’s first disastrous period in Government 15 years ago. He spouted this €3bn figure a few months back with no backup. If the budget for roads for the entire state for the next six years is €6bn, then alleging that one project that apparantly benefits just two counties with a €3bn price tag (i.e. 50% of the budget) gets the hackles up in the other 24 counties. And sows more dissent. And creates more confusion. And allows more time for cycling bikes, playing stationmaster and sowing sorrel, purslane and other salad leaves of choice in your window boxes during a pandemic. 

    I was accused earlier in this thread of giving too much credit to the power of the Greens. That intended insult was inappropriate as I hadn’t given any credit to the Greens. I had simply pointed out that they were stirring the pot and causing dissent. However having seen today’s outcome I am developing a sneaking regard for Ryan who appears to be transforming from a total fool to a successful manipulative political operator. On the initial reading it looks like he has more than outfoxed his FF and FG partners.  



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 255 ✭✭Iecrawfc


    Well there's nimbyism and there are legitimate concerns from farmers that their livelihoods will be destroyed. If you work a farm of 100 acres, how are you going to handle it being split in 2 or worse left with a small holding on another side thats not big enough to do anything meaningful with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    This is a very important point and is often lost when the AADT numbers are quoted. I travel Limerick/Cork frequently (twice/trice weekly). I almost always use the M8/R513 or M8/R513/R514/R512 routes in preference to the N20, as do a lot of others based on the traffic on that route. The N20 could be the backbone of the 5 southern counties in Munster. It connects two major urban centres, traverses some of the richest agricultural land anywhere and has the potential to be the spine of the nervous system of this region. The attached demonstrates this. This is a time we need bit of vision, an investment in the future, the putting in place of a foundation for development and prosperity. This road could attract traffic far in excess of it current incarnation. Sadly, this is way beyond the capacity of the current political "leadership".




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭KrisW1001



    That’s a completely irrelevant argument, and I don’t recall saying that there should be no upgrade: any new road will bypass those towns and have no farm animal access. The number of vehicles on the open road outside those towns is very low. That level of use is low enough to be dealt with by a single carriageway (up to 12,000 AADT), but a 2+2 (up to 22,000) is the realistic minimum. Type 1 DC is double the capacity of 2+2.

    I actually favour a Type 1 throughout because I don’t think 2+2 would save much money when looking at the whole scheme - the terrain is reasonably flat so the difference in gradients between a 2+2 and Type 1 wouldn’t save much, and there’s probably only two junctions, both of which would deserve grade separation, but could be relatively compact.

    @Hibernicis The oval on your map is a huge overstatement: nobody living to the east of M8 would ever use M20 to get to Limerick. M8 and M24 are the obvious option here. Similarly, nobody in Kerry is going to use the horrible N72 to join M20 when the N21/M21 will be a more direct and batter quality road much earlier (consider how many upgrade projects are active on N21 right now, from Adare bypass down, while N20 still hasn’t gone to planning).

    ... and nobody except fringe Green Party members is saying that this project will cost €3 billion. As far as I can see, that €3bn is a crude calculation based on 2:1 public transport provision on top of the actual project cost of €1bn. The 2:1 isn’t per project, it’s nationally, and with Metrolink looking like coming in at at least €6 bn (with potential to hit ten if things are allowed to continue as they have in the past) there’s plenty of space in the road budget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 Ball boy


    Also situations where the farm is split with the current n20 and will be split again with a new route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    It'll also not reach its full potential without the N40 North Ring link from the M20 to M8. I'm one of the people who uses the Ballylanders route anytime other than a Sunday morning and I'll still use it probably, as a lovely M20 followed by an unpleasant crash through Ballyvolane would be absolutely, tear jerkingly stupid - but seems to be what is happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    The government have made a shambles of this NDP announcment. Brian Leddin claiming the N/M20 will be a mix and match of a few different solutions, Coveney says no it will be Motorway standard and just heard Patrick O'Donovan on Live 95fm claiming it will 100% be Motorway and he even mentioned blue signs!!!!! He spoke about the Programme For Government superceeding the NDP as the PFG references the previous NDP which had M20 in it not N/M20. On another note Leddin claims the Northern Distributor Road in Limerick will now not go ahead as it is not in the NDP but O'Donavan has said it is still on the agenda as it is in the previous NDP referred to in the PFG!!!

    In fairness O'Donovan spoke passionately about the M20 and about the number of lives lost etc. and landowners being left in limbo for years and seemed to indicate the Greens comments have created more uncertainty for the landowners. He mentioned the MWRDO have been tasked with delivering a Motorway route. Im sure the consultants will have a giggle at this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The PfG doesn't actually committ to the previous NDP, it only talks of the review of it.

    National Development Plan

    We will bring forward the planned review of the National Development Plan (NDP) from 2022. We will use the review to set out an updated NDP for the period to 2031.

    The review of the NDP will be consistent with the ambition of the Programme for Government. The updated NDP will be aligned with the National Planning Framework (NPF).

    I don't think harking back to the previous NDP will achieve anything, the PfG clearly recognises that it will be changed.



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