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Staff shortages coupled with a housing shortage. Dublin is in trouble.

  • 24-09-2021 1:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo



    Just before covid broke out I remember hearing how a lot of employers in the retail and hospitality were struggling to get staff, particularly in Dublin city.


    This problem went away with lockdowns but now that the restrictions are being lifted it seems we are back there again but now even in a worse position. A lot of foreigners who were in these jobs returned home during the lockdown. Many bussiness who are now trying to reopen just can't get staff. A lot of the employers here seem to think it just a case of issuing new visas to foreigners but we are also caught with a chronic housing shortage here too. It is not as simple as getting all the foreigners back here. If they gave up their accommodation it has been filled.


    As restrictions lift further and with the busy Christmas period approaching I believe the situation is going to get worse.



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    The plan seems to be if you can't afford to live beside mammy, leave the county and spend as much time on the commute as you do working or sign on welfare.

    Providing accommodation for workers is only a thing if the worker is minted or the tax payer is supporting, either way it's a sky's the limit win win for developers.

    Good piece on the radio there yesterday. Some American man was saying his area tackled it by allowing developers build higher and in more density only if the builds were 100% affordable. Seems this allowance helped the developer keep a decent profit and they are doing it and it is working.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,202 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I don’t think Dublin’s in trouble, but it says a lot about the retail and services industries that they are a fair greedy shower looking to maximise profits by employing low-cost migrant labour instead of hiring Irish people and paying them a proper wage.

    Plenty of Irish employers do just that, so I don’t think the retail and services sectors should be any different. Quite telling too that they are willing to put said low-paid staff at risk. I really don’t think it’s visas are the issue as to why they can’t convince anyone to work for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I read today they were asking to have PUP wound up quicker so the people would be desperate sooner and come back to work for buttons.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's a mess alright no doubt, but an average meal and a few drinks for two people wouldn't leave much change out of €100. And pretty much everywhere is packed. Something very wrong somewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    They do need to wrap up the PUP straight away but it still won't solve the problem in Dublin. It was an underlying problem that the pandemic hid. Now things are reopening coupled with the fact that 17k foreigners who disproportionately worked in this sector have left will show Dublin is even in a worse position.


    It is good inaway for employees in this sector as they can demand higher wages.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    It puts the burden back on low paid workers so business can return to higher profits. The workers being used as secondary. In the states they were offering scholarships and the like to woo employees. Here we'll just call them spongers who want everything for nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Pay them decent wages and they will come back. Rte reported today a possible 30 cent rise in the minimum wage, €2.40 extra for an 8 hour shift if you don't have your break deducted. I don't blame anyone for holding out as long as they can.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good man Leo, never ending mass immigration into Ireland to continue the pyramid scheme and line the business people's pockets...


    "Mr Varadkar said that "the churn of migration" has slowed down and many migrant workers were not able to travel as a result of restrictions on air travel. He said this should soon change and a new work permit system is being streamlined to make the visa situation better for migrant workers."



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    From the same article Sandra O'Casey  who runs a doughnut shop is demanding more migrants are brought in on a permanent basis to help run her shops.


    Government should tell her where to go but they won't they'll open the floodgates once again so they can have their cheap labour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,901 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    wrapping up pup, ultimately puts the pressure back out onto the private sector, the private sector in turn must take on new debts, in order fill this void, at the moment, there are limitations for the private sector to do this, so by reducing the public money supply, via pup payments, this will more than likely slow overall economic activities......



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    I don't get what you are saying. Surely having people on the PUP who are available to work, and there is plenty work for them too is putting pressure on the government finances as well as bussiness not being able to run at capacity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    For all the moaners on here about immigration, you can't have it both ways. The reason we need sh*tloads of immigration is because if we live in a country where the only goal of a Government seems to be to expand the economy, we need constant immigration. Unless we adopt some new way of running the country it's immigration all the way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Stop the PUP and staff will arrive. Should have been cancelled months ago



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    People are "moaning" because businesses are saying without constantly increasing immigration they may have to increase wages.

    "...also putting upward pressure on wages."


    When does this mass immigration stop? We are already at almost 20% of our population. Does it just go on forever?

    This is supposed to be a country not a big industrial estate for the benefit of business people and doughnut shop owners who are freaking out because there may be upward pressure on the minimum wage they have to pay out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    well it wont stop if our only goal is to expand the economy, and that is the goal of every single government. We could change that, perhaps have a more socialist country where growth isn't everything and we all may have a little less money and less stuff, but no one wants that either. So it's immigration immigration immigration I'm afraid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    No companies then no work.

    Immigration will not stop because we have work for people. The more the better as far as I am concerned. Let them come



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ya, I don't disagree,that's clearly the mantra at the moment from all Irish political parties.

    I'm fundamentally opposed to what they are doing though but at least we can finally see throughout Europe attempts to change this including in France with Macron's sensible immigration proposals. Meanwhile in Ireland we are going the opposite way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    this is a country where new chains of dominos opening is hailed in the press as a good thing as it creates jobs. Jobs that will be minimum wage and staffed by immigrants. It's not really something worth celebrating, but here we do.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    About time too.

    I stayed in a number of hotels over the summer, where the overwhelming majority of staff were children, just out of school for the summer. Terrible service. Not the fault of the kids, just no experience.

    the reason being that the hotel couldn't get their staff to come back because they were all on the PUP.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can you explain what difference it makes if 20% of the country is made up of immigrants makes?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Enforced low paying jobs might have improved you holiday but its not something I'd support.

    Covid has shown up a lot of issues. No chance the hotels might revisit profits and raise wages?

    We too often put people in positions were they are forced into hardship so others can profit off them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wrong. The only reason we need sh**loads of immigration is that Irish people feel it’s beneath them to do menial jobs like cleaning, waiting tables etc. God be with the days when students would work at anything to support their social life!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Talk about celebrating a race to the bottom! Yet another fast food outlet, to contribute to the growing obesity epidemic, staffed by low skilled migrants, who contribute little in real terms to this country. Woot! What a win!

    Thankfully, the tide has turned against unfettered immigration across Europe. Even ultra-liberal Sweden is now more restrictive. It won’t be long before the spineless amoebas in the Dáil Éireann fall into line.

    As for staff shortages, pay people a liveable wage and there will be no shortage of local and EU applicants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Genuine question though you've mentioned low wages over and over again. What's the difference for say an average waitress in Dublin including tips versus pup doing full-time hours. Let's talk brass tacks.?

    Id argue the waitress earns far more money with the wage and tips than PUP provides but with PUP you don't have to bother? So tis handier.


    Have you don't any maths to back up your argument of breadline talk?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Weird , I know plenty of college going students working in the food industry .


    Odd that you don't see these people daily because they exist and without them the food industry would be fully closed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    No-one wants to become like Eastern Europe in the 1980's, Thelonious. It won't make us happier, and won't save the climate either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭jay0109



    Make not working less attractive and the problem goes away!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Tbf second highest min wage. Taken into cost of living it's not as Rosey we are 7th but with increases next year that will go push us up the list.

    Either way I do agree with Living wage discussion. But there is really a perception here that we have US levels of wages. Try that country out for some laugh.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    it is not simple as letting a load of immigrants when there is no place for them to live. My brother is a landlord and put a place on for rent two weeks ago for a 3 bed in dublin city and got over 300 replies in two days.


    I bet when the nightclubs come back next month you will have long ques at bars and wont be able to get a taxi at the weekend for love nor money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I would think its a mix of both money and hassle. Why is it okay for people to make profit off cheap labour but not try avoid that if you can? For some reason we expect people to rake it on the chin for the profit of others. F that noise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Doesn't tell the whole story though. Anyone know of a single minimum wage employer who reliably gives maximum hours?

    Minimum wage employers are penny pinchers by definition, they split shifts to avoid paying for breaks as a matter of course, so you can forget giving any one person enough hours they'd risk having to pay PTO.

    The housing and staffing issues are interlinked problems. Who, working a few hours a week minimum wage, can afford to pay rent in Dublin or to commute in from outside it? And those workers were also most likely to have been dropped like a hot snot by their bosses at the start of lockdown, they won't forget that.

    People thinking cutting the PUP will solve it can dream on - that has consistently failed to happen elsewhere as the PUP equivalents have ended, because the PUP isn't really the problem, the issues only amplified by the pandemic are the problem.

    The reality is, we've been engineering a city with prohibitive costs of living, so the staff we want to work for nothing can no longer afford it or the risk of precarious work.

    These chickens have been on their way to roost for quite some time. Either employers make themselves worth working for or the government needs to figure out a way to reduce cost of living, especially housing. Until then, people simply cannot afford to take these jobs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,507 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Make work more attractive and the problem goes away. Is the labour lazy or the employer greedy? Maybe both?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    More competition for jobs and people who are prepared to work for less will drive down wages. Big time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Biscuitus


    There's a flashback to a night out in Dublin walking around for 2 hours unable to get a taxi in the freezing cold that I'd like to forget.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm looking for a place to rent. I reply to average of 3/4 places everyday.

    I hardly ever get an answer. When I do, I go to see the property. I see about one or two non irish, out of average 12/15 people there.

    So, what does immigrants have to do with that?

    Also, thankfully I havent had to queue for a taxi for about 18 years.

    Plenty of taxis out there, mostly driven by immigrants, thanks for them!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Given that there are 320,000 on the Live Register and PUP, why is there any need for non-EU immigrant workers?

    Can we not employ some of those 320,000, and so reduce the numbers unemployed?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    "What does immigration have to do with that"?.... the piont is that if there is a chronic shortage of housing in Dublin. How can bringing in a load of immigrants solve the labour shortage in Dublin city. Where will these immigrants live?


    I know taxis are mostly driven by immigrants. But I wonder how many have gone home or gone into something different since lockdown. Nightclubs have been shut for 18 months now. By far the most demand for taxis is on weekends nights in town. When nightlife returns I bet this will be another labour shortage problem.It is grand now because last orders is before the last of public transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    You will find a certain section of those will never work, never have and never will. So yes immigration is the answer

    Its just a pity we couldn’t force a few countries to take a couple of people off our hands



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I see the PUP bashing continues unabated. It's quite extraordinary that DUBLIN based retailers and DUBLIN based employers groups can still be harping on that it's all PUP"s fault.

    Rarely do they discuss the actual reasons for staff shortages, namely wages, terms and conditions and now a rental accommodation crisis.

    Firstly, a quick glance at PUP recepient figures suggest 17K Retail associated employees still on the payment, but equally it suggests those numbers are spread across 26 counties, these vested interest groups seem to want us believe they are all Dublin based, it's a nonsense.

    Secondly the primary cohort that would have worked in retail (Students) no longer recieve PUP. those not students would have been earning, at best minimum wage, but of course this assuming they got full hours (MOST NEVER DID) , they too have had their PUP payment drastically reduced.

    Thirdly another Cohort worked in retail and Hospitality, namely people from Europe, South America, Asia etc, Guess what employers, you choose not to retain these people, did not avail of wage subsidy schemes, left these people to fend for themselves and un surprisingly they've ALL F**KED off. Now they are suggesting, let's re introduce work permits again, where do these clowns suggest these people are going to live exactly, commute from far flung destinations around Ireland, they are talking through their Back Sides. Hospitality sector also in trouble and its completely their own fault, staff we're treated disgracefully.

    Dublin is not Alone being in trouble, this nonsense narrative economy has reopened, every thing is grand and dandy is B****X, take a look at most rural towns and its plain to see what the reality is, enormous numbers of businesses closed and empty retail units scattered around the country.

    There's a final Hard Truth, Alot of small businesses are realistically only open because of ongoing government Supports which include wage subsidy schemes, which have cost far more than PUP ever did, interesting also that €10"s of Millions in payments clawed back by revenue recently from Employers failing to comply with eligibility criteria, it got barely a mention in the media. When those supports end, there's going to be a serious Reality Check and they'll have to find something other than PUP to Blame. Also watch out for an anticipated avalanche of Redundancies next month, I suppose PUP will get the blame again 🙄

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    If everyone “f**ked off” then they would have left all those house/apartment free for people to move into?

    So that’s not true. PUP is a huge problem and should have been scrapped months ago. It just burning more tax money when we need to invest in companies in Ireland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Perhaps you might enlighten us all on current availability of rental properties in Dublin, Kildare, Laois Meath, offaly ( I'm being generous in including commuter belt) , Daft.ie might help.

    They Have F***Ked off, even vested interest and lobby groups admit this. ( Hence the clamber to re introduce work permits, the cynic in me thinks this idea not entirely related to staff shortages)

    PUP burning more Tax payers Money ?,

    I'll grant you it did as did and continues to, wage subsidy schemes, but less than €43 million last week I believe was paid out on PUP, are you aware how much wage subsidy schemes cost last, Month? Many 100''s of millions. Just also for the record, PUP is also taxable.

    Invest in what companies exactly ? completely different argument , Discussion.

    There's been ample reporting on the causes of staff shortages, so don't take my word for it, pop over to Sky News, BBC and see how the UK is fairing with Staff shortages, I suppose you'll suggest that's PUP'S fault too 🙄

    Post edited by Dempo1 on

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Get the feeling you'd love to see a lot of business shut their doors.. you know for having the temerity for trying to run their own business



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I'm certainly not and as it happens I have run businesses. I'm addressing a disgraceful narrative being peddled by some who fail to grasp that they are partly to blame for the current staff shortage crisis whilst also explaining this is not just a Dublin issue. I'm a Dub, leaving in Rural Laois for over 20 years. I also spent near 30 years in hospitality so have enough insight to the problems that sector is facing.

    My points about wage subsidy schemes is very simple, those who are critical of PUP seem not to understand TWSS is essentially an employers PUP, the harsh reality is, and few will admit it, a lot of businesses are clearly unsustainable and continue to be propped up.

    I absolutely do not wish to see any business fail but perspective and realism is required when one government support is bashed constantly and primarily by those who fail to look at the bigger picture or peddle false narratives.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Two sides to every story, these kids off school for the holidays get paid in a lower band of the minimum wage than say an employee who is older and more experienced.

    So it was great when the kids off school were there to supply the cheap labour but now we need the experienced employees to come back and for a lot less than they are receiving on the pup likely.

    Alot of these businesses benefited greatly from cheap labour and covid support during the pandemic as well .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Cheap Labour, Gosh I never thought such a thing existed in Ireland 🙄 I'm not entirely sure what you mean by we now need "Experienced Employees to return for a lot less than they are receiving on PUP '

    Current Rates

    €300, €250 (Majority) , €203 pw , (ALL STUNDENTS RETURNING TO EDUCATION OFF PUP NOW)

    perhaps I'm missing something, experienced staff earning less than these amounts, Seriously 🙄

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




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