All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Perhaps you have a medical reason not to do so, however if not, it goes without saying you are putting people around you and yourself at increased risk.

Likewise most, if not all countries, including those with far-right leaders, have chosen to lockdown to deal with the pandemic.

Unvaccinated people are more likely to catch Covid than vaccinated. They are more likely to develop more severe Covid than vaccinated people. They are also more likely to transmit Covid to others than vaccinated people.

Are you claiming otherwise?

Bizarre assumption to make

"One study tracked over 600,000 COVID-19 cases in 13 states from April through mid-July. As delta surged in early summer, those who were unvaccinated were 4.5 times more likely than the fully vaccinated to get infected, over 10 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56904993

"Those given a first dose of either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccines - and who became infected three weeks later - were between 38% and 49% less likely to pass the virus on than unvaccinated people, PHE found."

The Oxford Jenner institute licensed their vaccine out to be produced at cost, they're not making billions from it.

The mRNA vaccines are being priced on a sliding scale based on a country's ability to pay with the richer countries subsiding the cost for poorer countries in addition to richer country's giving away vaccines via COVAX.

The cost of the vaccines is a minute fraction of the cost of the pandemic on world economies, the pharma companies themselves much prefer to sell treatments as they are much more profitable, vaccines aren't a cash cow (one benefit from the pandemic will be the increased interest in vaccines and their development which should reduce the number of people dying around the world from easily preventable diseases).

Though the fact that you haven't taken a free vaccine to get out of a pandemic would suggest that you believe in a lot of misinformation an are generally misguided in your beliefs around this.

I'm unsurprised to see 1 line replies and nothing to back up what you're saying while also ignoring evidence that others have posted.

posts like this are exactly why the CT forum is a necessity.

Incredible. I have just provided the sources. Are you claiming the information contained in these studies is incorrect? If yes, you need to demonstrate that.

What misinformation do you think I believe? You are so pro vaccine, that you're blind to everything else. You think anybody who doesn't want it must be misguided, or intellectually inferior to you. If a vaccine really works, it doesn't need to be defended as hard as you seem to defend this one. I'm happy for you that you love this vaccine so much and that you got it for free. I'm happy that myself and my kids got all of our other vaccines and we got them for free too, free vaccines are great.

My reasoning for not wanting the Pfizer vaccine is this, tell me which part is misguided.

1. The disease mostly kills old people and obese people, the chances of somebody who is healthy and mid 30's dying is extremely small, much much smaller than things people routinely do in day to day life such as driving.
2. If somebody gets covid their immune system will develop resistance to multiple proteins within that virus. If they survive, their resistance to the virus and will be far superior to the resistance vaccinated people have. If the spike protein changes dramatically vaccinated people will have zero protection, people who have recovered from covid will still have protection.
3. The vaccine efficacy against high viral load infections drops off over time, and allows the disease to circulate, actually encouraging mutations, which brings me back to point number 2.

The risk when being infected with a vaccine is much less than if exposed to SARS-COV2 without a vaccine, there is a very high chance of being exposed to SARS-COV2 as society opens up. There is currently a pandemic of the unvaccinated of all ages who are putting a strain on the health system.

This is untrue, those with the highest level of antibodies are those who have been vaccinated recently or have been vaccinated and then contract SARS-COV2 (which essentially acts like a booster) even those who have recently been infected by SARS-COV2 (particularly a non-delta strain) receive a very large boost to their immune response once vaccinated, either way, you're far better off being vaccinated before being exposed to SARS-COV2, the outcomes are 5x or more better than the unvaccinated. The outcomes for those who have been infected also shows antibody drop off over time and level of immunity tends to correlate with the amount of viral load rather than the consistent immunity offered by the vaccines, so unless you're going around COVID wards getting high on as much SARS-COV2 as you can, your immunity from infection will likely be lower than that of a vaccine, having the vaccine will also almost completely eliminate any risks for someone in your age group.

Vaccines encouraging mutations is a lie, the unvaccinated are a far greater source of mutations, all variants of interest have emerged in unvaccinated populations. This seems to be one of the latest misinformation lies being spread from anti-vaxxers.

But, here's the real issue, you're on the coronavirus forum, you've read all this before, the studies, the evidence, yet you still produced 3 points of complete misinformation showing either willful ignorance of anything other than the narrative you want to pursue contrary to any science, or you're trying to spread misinformation for your own nefarious means.

It is also completely whataboutery about your original point about being against vaccines due to making money for pharma companies, again, showing your posts are completely disingenuous.

What you can say about yourself is that you are one of the reasons restrictions are still about, you are one of the reasons that measures are in place, you need to own that bit and make peace with yourself for it and are a total hypocrite if you complain about any of the measures while being an active participant in extending the provision of those measures.

1. The risk when being infected with a vaccine is much less than if exposed to SARS-COV2 without a vaccine, there is a very high chance of being exposed to SARS-COV2 as society opens up. There is currently a pandemic of the unvaccinated of all ages who are putting a strain on the health system.

You're completely ignoring what I said because you don't like that fact. Would you agree that my first point is correct? That the chances (approx 1:70,000) of somebody mid 30's and not obese dying are extremely low, or I am I misguided? Driving is 10's of times more risky to me (approx 1:110), I could not drive to reduce my risk further, I could not leave the house at all, for me the risk is already low enough from covid, and I fully understand that I'm getting Covid. Everybody is getting Covid, the only thing that worries me is what variant I will get. Delta is almost no risk to me compared to many other things I regularly do.

2.This is untrue, those with the highest level of antibodies are those who have been vaccinated recently or have been vaccinated and then contract SARS-COV2 (which essentially acts like a booster) even those who have recently been infected by SARS-COV2 (particularly a non-delta strain) receive a very large boost to their immune response once vaccinated, either way, you're far better off being vaccinated before being exposed to SARS-COV2, the outcomes are 5x or more better than the unvaccinated. The outcomes for those who have been infected also shows antibody drop off over time and level of immunity tends to correlate with the amount of viral load rather than the consistent immunity offered by the vaccines, so unless you're going around COVID wards getting high on as much SARS-COV2 as you can, your immunity from infection will likely be lower than that of a vaccine, having the vaccine will also almost completely eliminate any risks for someone in your age group.

The disease is not "essentially like a vaccine booster". The disease provides much better immunity than a vaccine, you must realize that that makes sense? Your immune system recognizing more than 1 protein is much better than only recognizing one? Don't take my word for it, have a look at the article below. They specifically recommend getting the vaccine too by the way, but let's be clear, my point was that natural immunity is better (not safer), than immunity from the vaccine, would you not agree, or am I misguided again? Maybe you've seen data suggesting otherwise, and my source is a just a bunch of fellow misguided researchers and scientists.

"in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher."

3.Vaccines encouraging mutations is a lie, the unvaccinated are a far greater source of mutations, all variants of interest have emerged in unvaccinated populations. This seems to be one of the latest misinformation lies being spread from anti-vaxxers.

Again, I never said vaccines encourage mutations. You're putting words in my mouth and arguing against yourself. I can just leave if you'd like, and leave you and yourself to argue it out?

I said allowing the disease to circulate encourages mutation, I didn't say where it was circulating, obviously it circulates in unvaccinated too. And a virus circulating amongst a population will mutate. If everybody was 100% vaccinated this virus would continue to circulate and mutate. Would you not agree with that point?

I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm considering getting the vaccine, and ideally I'd like to get Covid soon after, so that I have superior immunity against future variants. My opinion, which I'm entitled to, and you don't have to agree with, is that getting covid soon, with or without a vaccine will provide better protection against future variants which may have a mortality rate significantly higher than 1:70000 for me.

If everyone was 100% vaccinated the virus would circulate at a slower rate. I don't know about mutation, it may not mutate in a linear fashion vs how much it circulates.

Doctors recommend vaccines, because doctors will recommend what they believe is safer and for the greater good. Like when we were told don't buy masks, they actually cause the virus to spread. Let me quote the white lie from the US surgeon General:

"Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!

They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can't get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"

Doctors also recommend you don't drink, smoke, eat certain types of food. I bet there's plenty of doctors who don't practice what they preach when it comes to those things. Just as some do with vaccines.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/16/france-suspends-3000-unvaccinated-health-workers-without-pay-covid-jab

The French health authority, Santé Publique, estimates fewer than 12% of hospital staff and about 6% of doctors in private practice have not been vaccinated.

I said the vaccine allows circulation, circulation encourages mutation, it doesn't matter who it's circulating in, but if we were all 100% vaccinated it would still circulate. Are you disputing that?

Your trying to put words in my mouth now. I never said all doctors were lying, in fact I specifically pointed out that not all doctors even agree vaccines are good, 6% in France weren't vaccinated, and plenty of others only got vaccinated in other countries because they had to.

What I think you're trying to get as is that I'm saying all doctors who think taking the vaccine is a good idea are lying? Absolutely not, the vaccine is saving lives, the vaccine is great, old people, obese people and sick people would be crazy not to get it. It would be even better for old people, sick people and obese people if everybody else got it too, because the vaccine is pretty leaky relative to other vaccines. Would it be better for me in the short term if I got? Providing I didn't suffer any sever side effects it probably would, the doctors aren't lying, some may be wrong on both sides, but there's no conspiracy, I have no doubt doctors on both sides of the argument believe what they are saying is true.