Are disc brakes contributing to crashes in the pro peleton this year?

Arequipa · 25-08-2021 6:17pm #1

Hi!

I hope you are all well.

I was watching the Vuelta yesterday.

Roglic attacked his other GC rivals, and pushed it on the decent.

He took a corner fast, seemed to lock the rear disc brakes and slid out and off the road.

Luck for Primoz, he wasnt badly hurt.

My question is.. at the World Tour level, where disc brakes are nearly universal, are their use and or misuse contributing to some of the nasty crashesin the last year or two?

Is it that riders are more used to rim brakes and need time to adapt or are the disc brakes too powerful at the speed and power produced on roads by World Tour Riders ?

Whereas on gravel roads, mountain bike tracks, in wet and slippery commuting weather.. discs are much more suitable...

Thank u!

A

25-08-2021 8:42pm

Misjudging a corner is simply misjudging a corner.

25-08-2021 8:57pm

they do something like 20,000 Kms a year, they would have no problems with disc breaks, apart from “G” Thomas, he would fall off a rocking horse

dahat · 25-08-2021 9:03pm

Primos took chances on a risky descent, no fault on disc breaks for me.

So to answer your question I don’t think so.

at1withmyself · 25-08-2021 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058205772/are-disc-brakes-contributing-to-crashes-in-the-pro-peleton-this-year

No

magicbastarder · 25-08-2021 9:20pm

there may be a nugget of an interesting question there if you were asking about a neophyte amateur who took a corner too fast, overestimating how good the brakes would be; but the example given was primoz roglic, who is far from a neophyte amateur.

Macy0161 · 26-08-2021 11:06am

They were saying the roads were sandy for the descent - Mas wasn't looking too hot on it either, and I heard an interview with Elissonde where he said the descent was dodgy and he eased right off once he knew the win was gone.

tbh someone mentioned Thomas earlier, but Roglic has a tarmac magnet all of his own...

sbs2010 · 26-08-2021 12:13pm

From the small amount of the Olympic Road race I saw, I got the impression that the vast majority of riders were on rims brakes.

Anyone else see that or did I just get it wrong?

Assuming it was mostly rim brakes does that suggest the pros really prefer rim but are forced to use disc by their teams?

Mefistofelino · 26-08-2021 12:30pm

Plenty of discs at the Olympic RR here.

Pros at the Olympics will ride their "work" bikes or at least a version of the same painted in, say , national colours. If there were more rim braked bikes than usual, it may be more reflective of what the non-pro riders are using.

Macy0161 · 26-08-2021 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805524#Comment_117805524

A lot are still swapping for climby stages, but it's getting less (given they have to bring most rim brake bikes up to minimum weight anyway). Olympic RR could've been complicated by lack of on road support.

After all the nonsense about crashes and the damage rotors will do, the biggest issue remaining seems be punctures/ swapping wheels, but even then that's down to when relying on Neutral Service.

fat bloke · 26-08-2021 2:11pm

Rim / disc / bicycle / motorbike - If you're braking mid-corner then you've already made a mess of things. Roglic was pushing on and had had a couple of close calls on previous corners, imo he just fell due to lack of grip, nothing to do with his brakes.

(having said that disc brakes suck and rim brakes rule all, viva les rims!!!)

bwdbwd · 26-08-2021 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058205772/are-disc-brakes-contributing-to-crashes-in-the-pro-peleton-this-year

Think most posters just jumped on your Roglc example and disagreed with you .. which probably was bike handling related etc.

However, for all the major pile ups we've seen this year, I think that disc brakes have played a role - the concertina or accordion effect, is happening at a much faster pace and riders can't react in time to it, therefore causing more to hit the deck

Arequipa · 26-08-2021 7:54pm

Evening!

Thanks for the replies...

I think you are right about the mass peleton crashes..

If you are screaming along on a GT Stage and nerves and tension is high.. a clipped wheel, squeeze of powerful brakes and the guys behind have nowhere to go...

I am no expert but I find earlier versions of disc brake bikes solid but heavy.. whereas a light frame with rim brake feels lighter and faster..

What annoys me about the disc brake phenomenon... is that bike companies are creating a whole new market & need to buy new bikes, wheels, rotar,hydo cables and shifters etc...basically giving up on rim brakes...

And regarding Roglic crash...it looks to me like he might have locked up his rear brake?

magicbastarder · 26-08-2021 8:12pm

What annoys me about the disc brake phenomenon... is that bike companies are creating a whole new market & need to buy new bikes, wheels, rotar,hydo cables and shifters etc...basically giving up on rim brakes...

isn't shimano coming out with a 2x12 groupset in a few weeks? i.e. this is nothing new.

Mefistofelino · 26-08-2021 8:20pm

Schroedingers disc brake - simultaneously no better performing than a good quality rim brake ( and sure the braking is limited by tyre grip anyway) yet also far more powerful.

Over the past decade, all sorts of things have been blamed for causing an increase in crashes :

-Disc brakes

-Looking at power meters

-Riders spending too much time on Zwift

-Mark Cavendish

-GC teams going to the front in sprint finishes

- The UCI

-Puppy paws

-Mobile phones & social media

-TV helicopters

Letting the actual causes aside, do we know that there are more crashes this year? One of the cycling statistics websites has started capturing data on riders injured in crashes and the numbers involved, but only has data for a year so far ( I think).

Arequipa · 26-08-2021 9:39pm

I think some crashes are caused by stress, anxiety and mistakes..

I think some riders are better bike handlers thsn others..

It is very noticeable on big Alpine decents.. riders like Mike Woods, Richie Porte.. go a lot slower and gingerly downhill..

While guys like Nibali, Sagan, will actually attack on decents...

Maybe disc brakes are so powerful.. they feel they can brake later and more reliably.. particularly in Wet weather.. when discs are undeniably more effective

Large bottle small glass · 26-08-2021 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807848#Comment_117807848

You want data?

Anecdotes and bias are the currency around here baby!

Macy0161 · 27-08-2021 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807022#Comment_117807022

There's no way that the mass pile ups can be blamed on disc brakes. Performance levels of the entire peloton and team tactics/ demands by DS's of everyone being up the front are far bigger, in the long list of contributory factors

The initial disc brake scare stories were about all the damage that the rotors would do in a crash. I'm not aware of any evidence from said mass pile ups.

wowy · 27-08-2021 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807848#Comment_117807848

Don't forget Opi & Omi.

Chips Lovell · 27-08-2021 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807821#Comment_117807821

True, but the shift to disc brakes is particularly craven. If you want/need to move from 11 to 12 speed, you just need a new groupset most of the time. Discs? You need a new everything. New frame, new wheels, new groupset.

Whatever about them causing crashes, they're definitely contributing to an unprecedented amount of lameness in bike design. Most of the bikes in the pro Peloton now look like they've hit every branch of the ugly tree.

Seth Brundle · 27-08-2021 11:23am

Out of curiosity, what is the objection to discs? Personally I don't find them that intrusive in the side profile of a bike. In general, they have better stopping power than rim brakes. Also rim brakes wear out the wheels and for carbon wheels are crap in the wet (although discs often squeal in the wet but still stop better than rims).

So, why are people so against them?

ednwireland · 27-08-2021 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810032#Comment_117810032

My main objection originally was they were bolting disc to frames that weren't designed to take them. But now disc only frames are around I now have 2.5 disc bikes and 2.5 rim bikes

loyatemu · 27-08-2021 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810324#Comment_117810324

eh - you have a bike with disc on one wheel and rim on the other?

ednwireland · 27-08-2021 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810600#Comment_117810600

Yep my old mtb had a disk mount fork. So managed to get an old wheel and front disk cheap so put it on. rear has hydraulic magura rim brakes.

I remember the fork twist on early disk brakes.

Chips Lovell · 27-08-2021 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810032#Comment_117810032

Aside from the sheer ugliness, they're adding more complexity and expense to maintenance for little or no net benefit.

Weepsie · 27-08-2021 10:13pm

I'll second the complexity of maintenance. My sram shifter/brake lever died and I got a rather expensive replacement and it's working again but I shouldved cut my losses.

The bike/frame it's for though is an absolute blast to cycle though so there is that.

Seth Brundle · 28-08-2021 8:17pm

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/sean-kelly-says-more-crashes-in-pro-races-probably-linked-to-new-training-habits/

\m/

Richard Hillman · 29-08-2021 5:33pm

Pogacar was switching between disc and rims in the TdF. I wonder are many riders doing that.

29-08-2021 5:40pm

Majka was on a Colnago with rim breaks today.

Rechuchote · 29-08-2021 5:58pm

Sean Kelly's right. You really need to train in the corrida with Dublin drivers to know how to duck and dive and dodge and swoop and brake by standing on your front wheel and swivel around cars.

Chips Lovell · 31-08-2021 10:41am

All you need is the Benny Hill music

https://twitter.com/SenalDeportes/status/1432346520993607693

ednwireland · 31-08-2021 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826733#Comment_117826733

neutral service is definitely an issue with disc brakes thats for sure

lennymc · 31-08-2021 4:49pm

no doubt if you went back 100 years or so, you would have all the same arguments against gears and derailleurs. Complexity, cost, ugliness etc. Disc brakes work, offer more modulation, no rim wear, more consistent performance in the wet (someone mentioned trying to stop on carbon rim brakes in the wet - been there, nearly went into a pileup. Not fun). No such issues with disc brakes.

As for all the bikes looking the same - have you ever looked at traditional steel bike frames? Nearly every one looks the same as all the others. Right, you have lugs, and you have small details like the colnago logo on stays and bottom bracket shells, but there was no variety until funny bikes came along. Disc brakes everyday of the week for me (even though most of my bikes are rim brakes)

That was pretty poor from neutral service alright - would have been better to take a bike swap. It looked like whatever size allen key the mechanic had was wrong for the dqs bike, and he had to change it (after first bringing out a rear!!!)

Chips Lovell · 31-08-2021 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826767#Comment_117826767

True. But if I recall correctly, a Quick Step mechanic was responsible for Alaphillipe's cordless drill fiasco in last year's Tour.

It's a crazy situation where a puncture now means either changing your entire bike or a mechanic approaching it with power tools.

31-08-2021 5:28pm

I wasn't paying enough attention when there was a crash going up hill the other day and Quinn Simmons removed his own wheel while waiting for a new one. They are hardly using quick release are they, more likely have levers on the thru axel like you see on some MTBs?

Macy0161 · 31-08-2021 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117829148#Comment_117829148

My Gravel Bike has those levers too - however I didn't think the pro's would have them as they're not aero enough... It was a hilly stage so he may have been on rim brakes anyway.

31-08-2021 5:47pm

Was looking to see if I could find pictures of the Trek bikes from la Vuelta, there's one here I found from the Tour, see if I can get this to embed now. Have a look at Kenny's front wheel, non drive side.

fat bloke · 31-08-2021 7:28pm

Mate of mine is back from Majorca and says all the rental options now are bang up to date, disc brakes, 28mm tyred... garden gates!

He rides a 2015 trek SLR at home and rented a TCR advanced pro disc out there. Not a cheap bike at a shade over 5 grand RRP new, and he didn't like it at all. Heavy, dead, over - braked.

On dry, well tarmac'd Majorca hills you don't need 28mm comfort tyres and heavy disc set up. Fair enough maybe on a work horse winter bike on crap roads but...

Yeah. Don't like discs, me. :(

magicbastarder · 31-08-2021 9:09pm

heavy disc set up

ultegra R8000 (mechanical shift, rim brakes): 2272g

ultegra R8020 (mechanical shift, disc brakes): 2314g.

a difference of 42g, or about one tenth of the fill of a bidon. and for 105, the difference is 25g.

(source: https://ccache.cc/blogs/newsroom/2020-road-gravel-groupset-weight-comparison)

gn3dr · 31-08-2021 11:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830265#Comment_117830265

I did a search for a TCR disc vs rim brake weight but couldn't find it. I suspect because the manufacturers don't want to publicise this info as the disc bikes are usually heavier. The weight table linked says that cables for rim and hoses and fluid for discs aren't included...

Mefistofelino · 01-09-2021 8:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830861#Comment_117830861

The Japanese Giant website is the only one that publishes weights of bikes & frames. The TCR Advanced disc is 250 - 300g heaver than the rim version. Most of that increase is the wheelset. The disc frameset is 10g heavier than the rim version

strmin · 01-09-2021 8:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830265#Comment_117830265

I suspect it's not only about the weight of groupset. When I was shopping for a bike 5 years ago, there were plenty of options around 7kg for under €3000.

7kg bike would cost you 10k now. And 3k bike with disk brakes will ride like a ton of bricks. Bike industry is laughing now. They can sell bikes with rubbing disk brakes for a lot of money, because disk brakes are "so much better". The fact is, they are not necessary, unless always riding in filthy conditions.

My rim brake pads last at least a year on a good bike. Rim wear is still minimal after 20000km. It just shows that I don't do much braking anyway :)

CantGetNoSleep · 01-09-2021 8:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117829844#Comment_117829844

I'm not yet completely sold on discs (aside from on a wet day where there is no question), I have two disc road bikes but recently bought a rim braked bike, partly because both bikes needed the discs looked at by a shop as they have been giving trouble.

One of my bikes is a TCR Advanced Pro Disc though - it weighs 7.6kg so I don't think you can call it a garden gate.

fat bloke · 01-09-2021 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831382#Comment_117831382

His words, not mine anyway in relation to the TCR. I've had two consecutive TCR advanced Pro (rim) bikes and loved them.

Quoted weights and all that are fine but there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind but that bikes have gotten heavier and more expensive, and that has coincided with the advent of disc braked bikes.

CantGetNoSleep · 01-09-2021 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831699#Comment_117831699

Agree with you on both price and weight, before the TCR I had a disc braked Cannondale Synapse which came close to 10kg until I changed the wheels, before that again I had a rim braked Canyon Ultimate which was below 7kg, and below 1800€ on sale

fat bloke · 01-09-2021 1:28pm

"below 7kg, and below 1800€"

Yeah, those days are long gone :( :( :( You could pay 12 grand for a road bike now and not break the 7kg mark.

Are disc brakes contributing to crashes in the pro peleton this year?

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