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Dublin Airport Bus Service Changes

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Bumblebee2020


    Airlink is not coming back for a long time, Website updates are false flags.

    Updated posters in the airport are old and are planned to be taken down soon enough if not already.

    Aircoach rumoured to be moving into Airlinks slot and it makes sense if the airport is not getting serviced then move aircoach up.

    i still think Airlink is up for sale in the background.



  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭noelfirl


    I used them yesterday - they were operating at 75% capacity and as a result, weren't able to take on everyone who was waiting at the T2 stop for a given service.

    I think one thing being omitted from all of this discussion is frequency - I can't remember what frequency Dublin Express ran at pre-pandemic but can remember that Airlink ran every 10/15-ish minutes through much of the day. Without making any assumptions about what frequency Airlink does/doesn't return at, if you arrive at the airport stop without any pre-booking and are just looking for 'which is cheaper and departing sooner' you might just pay less heed to the extra euro and the fact the buses are older city-style buses.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Probably the person who sent the tweet is from NX head office in the UK and didn't know the rules were different here I'm guessing if they were actually keeping to the 75%. DX employ very little of their own staff here.

    DX were every 20 minutes pre-pandemic, with each of the 3 services each hour having different stopping patterns.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    As said previously, I just don't see how putting the license up for sale is going to work for Dublin Bus, as each day airlink is not operating, the competition are building a customer base and therefore reducing the value of the Airlink license. That's before we consider if anyone would actually want to buy it.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Aircoach could be interested if it gets them back the prime bus stops at the airport, plus allow them the ability to go head to head against DX. Plus eliminate a competitor. Obviously would require review by the Competition Authority.

    I'd say Aircoach's interest might come down to if they can get those prime bus stop's with or without buying Airlink and of course any price tag. I wonder have all these companies been paying DAA for the bus stops over the past year even when operating or did they suspend the charges? Maybe no guarantee that Airlink ends up at these stops again.

    Of course I've zero inside knowledge of this, just speculating that it would potentially make business sense for Aircoach.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    As someone who used regularly use Airlink for commuting, I'd very much prefer that type of bus over a coach. Aircoach would drive you mad with the dwell times at the stops as the driver got out and helped people put suitcases in the luggage compartment.

    I stopped using Airlink due to its unreliability, but in my experience the vehicles were much better suited to an airport run than the "luxury" coaches.



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭cloudhopper19


    airline was very handy as it connected the airport with the main train stations something the others do not do. Shame if it doesn't come back or allow others access to the routes from Heuston.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Dublin Express now stops at Heuston Station. They say in their FAQ:

    "Dublin City Centre - Heuston Station

    This stop isn’t currently selectable to book from online, but you can still get on or off from this stop.Simply book your journeys to/from another city stop.This stop is located in Dublin’s city centre, right outside the main entrance of Heuston Station and 10 minute walk from the Guinness Storehouse."

    Their Custom House Quay stop is also a pretty short walk from Connolly.

    Brian CivilEng, sure, though most people using these type of services prefer help with their bags, it would be seen as an advantage for them. If anything I'd say this is more of a reflection that there should be more and better PSO services, servicing the airport.

    Actually now that I think of it, it is sort of weird that the taxsaver tickets apply on Airlink. That is a major taxpayer subsidy going to a commercial operation!

    If I was Aircoach/Dublin Express, I'd want the same subsidy to apply to their services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    I don't believe the majority of public transport users have large bags, those with a lot of luggage make a minority of all air passengers and are more likely to use a taxi or private car than the bus. Plenty still have large bags on the bus of course but they aren't the majority.

    It is quite frustrating to have multiple operators running routes with that much of an overlap in any case. With the separation of stops you are forced to choose in advance which service you are going to use, then end up waiting for 40mins for an Airlink that keeps filling up at T1 and skipping T2 while seeing in the distance the 16, 41 or Aircoach departing on time.

    My own preference would be a common ticket no matter who the operator, and a common stop with departures every 5mins for the city centre, then branching off different directions after that.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm sorry, I don't agree, these sort of premium airport services are very much aimed at people flying to and from the airport and thus have bags of various sizes.

    These really aren't supposed to be commuter type services, even though people like you may have been using Airlink as such, due to the loop hole of it working with taxsaver tickets. But I bet you and most other commuters wouldn't use it as such if you had to pay the full €7 fare for every trip.

    Commuters heading to the airport are supposed to be mostly using the PSO services like the 16, 41, etc.

    Perhaps the solution to all this, is that the Airlink service becomes a PSO service like the 16, with the same fare structure, but using the port tunnel. Kind of like how BE have given up on the X8 and it is now becoming a PSO service instead.

    Airlink using 13 year old city buses, would make a lot more sense if it was €2.50 then €7

    Leave the Aircoach and DX for the tourists with bags and use the 747 route as a PSO supported route, with regular fares, for commuters like yourself.

    As a person who lives on the 16 and 41 routes, it would be great to see all the cheaper tourists (backpackers, etc.) struggling on with bags on these routes to be gone and using a new cheap 747 route instead. I think that would make a lot more sense all round.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    I think Dublin Bus should forget about Airlink. Just extend the 41 to Heuston and use the saved buses to beef up the schedule. Maybe introduce some daytime departures on the 41X for a quicker option via the Port Tunnel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Just on the PSO service point, BusConnects offers a mixed set of changes:

    Improvements:

    L81 - Replaces 102- Swords, Malahide, Portmarnock & Sutton (improved connection every 20 mins)

    L83 - Replaces 33b - Swords-Donabate-Portrane (new connection every 30 mins)

    L85 - Replaces 33a - Swords-Lusk-Rush-Skerries-Balbriggan (improved connection every 30 mins)

    N8 - New route - Blanchardstown & Clongriffin (new connection every 30 mins)

    24 - New route - City Centre via Finglas North, Glasnevin & Phibsboro (new connection every 20 mins)

    19 - New route - City Centre via Ballymun, Glasnevin North & Drumcondra (new connection every 60 mins)

    Status Quo:

    A2 - Replaces 16 - Santry-Drumcondra-City Centre-Harolds X-Terenure-Rathfarnham-Ballinteer-Dundrum (existing frequency maintained every 12 mins)

    Disimprovement:

    Route 41 currently has 3 departures each hour direct beween the city and the Airport along the Swords Road - these will be withdrawn and not replaced at the Airport.

    That's a retrograde step in my opinion. By all means the additional services provided by the 19 and 24 are welcome for the areas they serve en route, but they do go around the houses a bit if going to/from the city centre.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    You are not going to get changes like that to the PSO network now. The only show in town are the proposed services under BusConnects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    Indeed it is. Just a bit of wishful thinking on my part. ;-)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    I've just heard Airlink will not be coming back.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    Here is confirmation



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I assume that's on the internal DB social network? I haven't seen any official announcements made as of yet



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Well, I'd hope that the NTA wouldn't feel beholden to the BusConnects plan and could make more immediate changes when the unexpected happens. They have already shown willingness to do so with the X8.

    If as StreetLight says above, Airlink doesn't come back, then it does leave a hole that the NTA need to handle, that the taxsaver tickets were accepted on Airlink. So what do they do now, come to agreement with Aircoach/DX to accept Taxsaver tickets or perhaps decide to lay on a 41X/AX/747 service that uses the port tunnel?

    I'd be in favour of that given the loss of the 41 at the Airport under Busconnects. Between the loss of the 41 and now Airlink services gone, the 16 is going to become even more painful if not handled somehow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Not surprising. If they were going to come back it made no commercial sense at all for them to give Dublin Express a clear run like they have the last couple of weeks. I thought they might come out and defend their position initially, but the longer time has gone on, the less likely it looked.

    Be interesting to see what happens with the Airlink stops now at the airport, since DB, like Dublin Express, Aircoach and all of the other operators up at the airport, signed a significant length contract with the DAA for the rental of the stops.

    I wonder if they agreed a termination fee to end the contract early and now the stops may be re-tendered or some other arrangement will happen? Obviously for passengers it would be good if you had Aircoach there now as well, but it wn't just happen overnight.

    This announcement is only got to hot up the battle between Aircoach and Dublin Express now, you would think that both operators are probably now going to try and exploit the permeant departure of the 747/757 to their advantage. Dublin Express has already fired it's opening salvo with the number of new stops they've added.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The 41 won’t be going until 2024 so that isn't really an issue now. But I think the planned reduction in PSO services linking the airport via the most direct route is a mistake.

    In the meantime I'm sure that Dublin Express will ramp services up to meet demand as the airport traffic starts to pick up.

    But sadly I supect that the perk of the monthly/annual ticket being valid on one of the fast services to/from the Airport is gone now for good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    Well that is a downer losing Airlink. Although as previously stated I stopped using due to unreliability of the service. When it ran it was the quickest way into town.

    Aircoach offered half price discounts for staff. I don't know if Dublin Express do, they werent running long enough before lockdown. But they do cater for staff.

    I remember the time myself and a few colleagues were going to a Leinster game after work, we left the office at the same time. I got on the Airlink as I had a taxsaver, they got the Aircoach direct to Ballsbridge. I got off at the Point and walked the rest of the way across the East Link and was in the pub 20mins before the rest of them.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "In the meantime I'm sure that Dublin Express will ramp services up to meet demand as the airport traffic starts to pick up.

    But sadly I supect that the perk of the monthly/annual ticket being valid on one of the fast services to/from the Airport is gone now for good."

    The issue is those taxsaver users will now be on the 16 instead, increasing an already very overcrowded service. Unless they come to an agreement with Aircoach/DX to take the taxsaver tickets.

    Really there should always have been a PSO service to the airport using the Port Tunnel. I feel that DB didn't have such a service as it would have competed with Airlink. Now that they don't have Airlink, they might be more enthusiastic about such a service.

    It doesn't need to directly compete with DX, different types of service, call it something like the A5, operate out of the same stops as the 16/A2 at the airport, no extra baggage space on the buses like the VG's, no direct advertising to potential passengers like Airlink, just another PSO option from the city.

    BTW Thanks folks for confirming, going to be painful on the 16!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    I'm just thinking about what is lost here. Each double decker Airlink could take 90pax, the 747 ran every 15mins during winter, 10mins during summer and the 757 every 30mins. So that is 720 seats an hour each way that needs to be replaced. Between the hours of 5 and 6pm when I used use the bus, the Airlink regularly filled up at T1 so didn't come and pick up at T2. So the capacity was needed.

    Aircoach and Dublin Express use coaches rather than double deckers, so approx 60pax per bus? So between them, that's an extra 12 coaches per hour they'll need to stick on to serve the peak hour. Assuming air traffic recovers that is.

    Is that Metro nearly finished yet?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I would imagine that should a PSO route be launched in line with what the Airlink route previously was that Dublin Express might get an itchy trigger finger in terms of lodging a complaint about having a taxpayer funded operator causing them to have revenue abstraction, especially if it is similar to a former commercial DB Route!

    I don't think your sums are quite right here.

    Firstly you're making a somewhat flawed assumption that the 747/757 was always at max passenger loads. Some services were always very busy but others were not in my experience. The 747 always did better than the 757 in general also.

    In addition, the standard VGs operated by Dublin Bus are 73 seaters, the airlink variety of which has 8 seats removed for the luggage racks downstairs, which leaves you with a total of 65 seats rather than 90. In my experience as well, not everyone is keen to go upstairs either with luggage or leaving theirs downstairs and even then I used to see seats blocked off with luggage etc in the past.

    I don't know what the capacity of of Dublin Express vehicles are, but generally Aircoach use their straight 53 seaters on the 700, sometimes a 49 seater with toilet creeps on there but normally it's the 53 seaters that turn up more often than not.

    Also Dublin Coach were only going a matter of days before COVID pretty much and carried very little passengers. Any capacity that they provide can be counted towards filling the void left by Airlink since they had a lot of excess space and Aircoach had capacity on existing services too.

    I don't think there is a massive need for an increase in capacity (but there will be some needed for sure) and I would suggest that even when demand picks up,, Aircoach and Dublin Express, being backed by large companies like First and National Express, will surely have the resources in order to provide it.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Those Double deckers would never have 90 people on them. Specially as most of them had seats removed for extra baggage racks.

    The coaches are about 54 people, most of the time, the double deckers would be carrying roughly the same. Maybe 10 more, I’d be shocked if they were more then 75.

    DX is a new service, so obviously that is a lot of extra capacity straight off. I don’t think Aircoach/DX would need to put on much extra coaches to make up for the lose of Airlink. And I’m sure they won’t hesitate to do so if the demand is there.

    I’d be more concerned about taxsaver commuters ending up on the 16/41



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    One of the advantages of using coaches, is that it would is relatively easy to hire in extra coaches from other operators if there is a sudden increase in demand. Not ideal, more costly then using your own, but fine at a pinch until you buy more.

    Aircoach has a proven record of magicing extra coaches out of seemingly thin air in the past, like when they started the Cork route and brought in older coaches from their parent company in the UK to fill the gap until new coaches were built for the service.

    Lots of coaches around the country sitting unused due to Covid and tourism being down, they would likely be very happy for some extra work.

    On a possible PSO Port Tunnel route, of course DX would be unhappy about it and complain, but that doesn't mean they would actually win any such claim. As long as it was sufficiently different enough from the DX service, like I mentioned above, it might still be workable.

    Ironic if DB were stopped from operating a port tunnel service, given how in the past they have tried to stop others from using the port tunnel!



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Bumblebee2020


    Finally the cat is out of the bag, so Airlink is gone after years of madness spending (a private company paying semi state wages) it never added up.

    Next move is Aircoach will move to Lot 2 with their Dublin services and keep the current area for the long distance runs.

    I would presume if dublin bus don’t get the City Sightingseeing contract + Cruise ship direct contracts they will also pull DoDublin.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Finally the cat is out of the bag, so Airlink is gone after years of madness spending (a private company paying semi state wages) it never added up."

    In fairness, I'd assume that the service has been very profitable for DB in the past.

    I suspect the issue came down to the age of the VG's, leaving aside the bus versus coach conversation, I'd imagine most would agree that they would need to replace them soon. If I'm not mistaken the Airlink service uses 25 VG's. It would cost in the region of 10 million to replace them!

    It would be a tough business decision to make that sort of investment, at the same time you have a large new competitor operating the same route/stops.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    My sums were back of the envelope while cooking dinner so not publication standard, but in my experience it was standing room only most evenings. Or else full at T1 so skipped pickup at T2. This is based on using the Airlink twice a day, pretty much every working week from 2013 until 2019. In particular the hour between 5pm and 6pm. Between a glut of arrivals from UK around half 4, and office staff finishing work the 5 - 6pm was a daily peak for people leaving the airport.

    I admit I forgot about the luggage rack downstairs, but there was usually about 10 standing. So maybe 75 per bus? Definitely a much higher capacity than the coaches.

    When you look at what is needed, pre-COVID Dublin Airport easily had around 20 arrivals an hour most evenings. Assuming all narrowbodies at 170pax per flight that is approx. 3,400 passengers arriving. If only 20% of those want to take a bus to the city centre you'd need 680 seats an hour. That doesn't include staff or "meeters greeters", but 680 seats needs 13 of the Aircoach 53 seater coaches. So if traffic were to come back, at the very minimum a 10min frequency on both Aircoach and Dublin Express would be needed.



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