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How to use the new Kirwan junction

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I wonder how long it'll take Google Maps to update. I see they have the new Menlo road added.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wait, do the cycle lanes not go through this new junction..?

    Bit late to be looking at the details (I know!) but they appear to be routed onto the footpath to dismount and cross at pedestrian crossings. Surely not??




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Greentree_uk


    interesting disaster, it all worked without any traffic lights on the roundabouts. best day in Galway was when none of the traffic light controlled roundabouts were working.. actually how roundabouts are supposed to work. that said I still remember people parking on roundabouts and using them the wrong way round... glad to be out of there I hope you get a bypass soon! not a bad video..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's proven that roundabouts are only effective up to a certain level of traffic, which all roundabouts in Galway now exceed on a regular basis. Lights on roundabouts were removed a long time ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Nope. Will need to cross in a similar fashion to the pedestrian traffic light phases (Toucan crossing) to go through the junction.

    Will be another very slow junction to navigate if on foot or bike.

    These types of junction design encourage Salmon cycling.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Will be passing over that way at the weekend, will check it out. Looking pretty blocked up on Google Maps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Its 3 days in, it is still NEW to loads of people in the cars, after 3 weeks will be a different story. Similar issues when the other junctions were switched over



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭buzz11


    The road to Headford is now a left-turn at this new setup and the turn left lane is far too short and doesn't leave enough length for queuing headford bound traffic. Who designed it?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is only temporary though, right? It doesn't look like the final design. Sorry for what might be a silly question, but I haven't been through that junction in maybe a year at this stage



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Does the left turn go green at the same time as Bothar na dTreabh through traffic? Might be no harm as the area is cursed with constant lane/queue jumping.


    Edit: Or is that meant to be a left turn slip road? In which case that'll not work...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    "Does the left turn go green at the same time as Bothar na dTreabh through traffic?". Yes, it does.

    Have to say I'm disappointed so far with how this is working out - came through this afternoon and traffic northbound was backed up as far as the QB. Alright, says you, but it is summertime and Race Week in particular. Yes, but when I got to the Tuam Road junction the traffic wasn't back that far (Glenburren Park).

    I think that the light sequence on the junction is going to have to be changed - whenever I look at it on Google Traffic, it's always red northbound.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,261 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    We went through from Sandy Rd to Headford Rd northbound on a weekday morning last week. The Headford Rd was backed up and caused a tailback on the junction because the lights at the Menlo/Headford Rd part of the junction stayed red for at least three solid minutes. We've gone through at other times from the Headford Rd to BnaT and it was fine just taking the left lane.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I passed through a few times at the weekend. The left turn towards Headford went green about 10sec after the straight (BnT) green. Since the left turn lane is only about 5 cars long, it blocks the left straight-ahead lane for a lot of the sequence.

    The sequencing will need some work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭jkforde


    did they not model traffic flow based on the real world data they collected? genuinely surprised but I guess real world land constraints, etc. have a crunch part in final design.

    🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️

    "Since I no longer expect anything from mankind except madness, meanness, and mendacity; egotism, cowardice, and self-delusion, I have stopped being a misanthrope." Irving Layton



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    The area is now on the traffic updates of one national radio station every morning since going live, never heard it mentioned so consistently



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭ballinadog


    Same thing happened at Moneenageisha, was on the AA updates every morning for the best part of 6 months after opening in 2009. Similarly Bodkin in 2013. This is no different. Give it time. It'll be grand in time.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Those lights weren't in the original plans as far as I can remember - it was originally just a yellow box.

    The lights were added in after local opposition - people thought they wouldn't be able to get into traffic.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've been flying through there eastbound in the morning and westbound in the evening. Seems to be working.



  • Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭MaxFlower


    Going from the Liosban to N83 (Headford Rd) yesterday at 3pm. Took 15mins to get from the car dealership (Motorpark?) to the lights. Reason was they were green for 8 seconds and red for 2min20secs. Can't get much through in 8 seconds. ~80% of cars seemed to be going onto the N83.


    My impression so far is that the roundabout was better for N83/ users. The new junction seems poor for anyone heading that direction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Sapient




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Ya you are probably right but after all they wanted to give priority to the N6 corridor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Sapient


    I said citations: plural not singular. And the one research paper you did cite is from 2014 and a paltry four research papers, of dubious quality, have cited it in their research to-date. However, even accepting this research paper, it invalidates your argument. You either didn't read the research or didn't read the data or lethal combination of both, because the paper recommends roundabouts for the traffic volume of under 3,000 vehicles hourly and only signalized when it is over 4,000. According to Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the N6 has a volume of 1,800 at its peak and the N84, 800 at its peak; so, unless that there is 1,400 vehicles swinging left coming out of the city into Castlelawn Heights, the criteria for the paper you cited invalidates and utterly debunks your argument rather than supports it.

    The notion that it's proven that roundabouts are "only effective up a certain level of traffic" and signalized intersections are the answer is entirely ignorant of the entire body of research on this subject and also of basic common-sense. Here is a recent paper published in May 2021, which claims, when traffic volume is large (8,784 vehicles per hour), roundabouts are 1/3 faster than the most efficient signalized intersections and twice as fast as the most inefficient one. Please read the research before swallowing it whole whatever someone else told you.

    And, also, the lights on the roundabouts were not removed and definitely not "a long time ago". One of the problems, one of many, with that intersection was that there was a signalized pedestrian crossing at the entry to and exit of N6. Signalized entry and exit of a roundabout defeats the purpose and efficiency of a roundabout.

    I hope that you don't work for whomever the council paid for this conversion, because you're not very good at defending them. Whoever is in charge of the planning the traffic network in Galway is a dolt(s).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "According to Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the N6 has a volume of 1,800 at its peak and the N84, 800 at its peak; so, unless that there is 1,400 vehicles swinging left coming out of the city into Castlelawn Heights, the criteria for the paper you cited invalidates and utterly debunks your argument rather than supports it."

    There's a flaw in your assertion that the volume on the N6 is too low. The current measured throughout is throttled by roundabouts along the route and poor light sequencing at the junctions. You can't measure the volume as the demand when the road is choked up - when the capacity is reached the peak volume gets spread over a longer time (= traffic delays at rush hour(s)).



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Sapient


    First, there is no such assertion that the volume on the N6 is too low in the post. I think you're either confused, or you disingenuously created a strawman argument. Based upon the assertion of criteria by the authors of the paper he cited and based upon the assertion of data by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the criteria posited by the paper is not met based upon the data. Neither assertion is attributable to me. If you had actually read and comprehended the post, the research paper was accepted for argument's sake and purely to demonstrate his self-defeating argument, period.

    Second, unless the duration of navigating through that particular section is more than an hour (at rush hour PM, and it would never be, because it is throttled by several signalized intersections from Headford Road), the data on the volume of vehicles per hour will be more or less equal to demand for that particular section. Based upon the data from the new junction, there is no statistical significant change in the pattern of volume per hour.

    Remember, the argument is the capacity of a roundabout for the vehicles which approach and exit it more efficiently than a signalized intersection. The argument is not capturing how many vehicles ought to pass through it if there was no signalized intersections, halting, or congestion for each vehicle's journey before they entered the roundabout and judging its capacity based upon that. That's idiotic: that's comparable to judging how fast Usain Bolt runs a 100m based upon his team's 400m relay time. You agree that doesn't make sense, right? I hope so.

    And for argument's sake, even if there was a two-hour delay through that intersection, it would barely meet the spurious criteria set by the research paper cited by the 'Perfect Contrast', and if it did, you'd have to meet the criteria in the paper I cited, which is double the capacity. Do you really think that there was more than 8,784 vehicles per hour hitting that roundabout?

    One last question, was 'roundabouts the root of all evil' on the school curriculum in Galway?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "Based upon the assertion of criteria by the authors of the paper he cited and based upon the assertion of data by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the criteria posited by the paper is not met based upon the data. Neither assertion is attributable to me."

    You were using TII data to try dismiss the recommendations in Perfect Contrast's linked paper as not applicable. The volume of traffic in TII's data is severely limited to the current capacity of the N6 with roundabouts and poorly sequenced junctions so it's not a valid data source for your assertion.

    It's like saying there's no need to open a second till in the supermarket because the data shows only 1 person per minute is going through the tills. One till can handle 1 person per minute. Ignoring the big queue waiting to get through the till.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Greyhound_


    Living in the area for more than 15 years I am very unhappy (saying mildly) with the new layout. It used to take me 10 - 12 minutes to drive from home to Dunnes and back to buy a product. Now, it is more than a half an hour and I simply do not bother. To get out from the Dunne's carpark is impossible. I am actually seriously considering moving from this area as it became uncommutable and road zig-zag's are pathetic.

    Instead of city governors doing what needs to be done for the city, which is a proper by-pass, money are spent for this type of nuisance. The tea does not get sweeter from a simple act of stirring.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Sapient


    Yes, I used the data against the linked paper to undercut Perfect Contrast's assertion, his assertion. That's not an assertion: it's attacking his assertion. If you cannot understand the difference between those disparate acts, you cannot continue in this discussion.

    Your repeating of the same erroneous statement isn't going to magically correct it. Your ignorant and naïve appraisal of traffic dynamics was refuted and so, you must respond or concede the point, not parrot the appraisal. As I've already said, and you ignored acknowledging or refuting it so I'll repeat, unless the duration of navigating through that particular section is more than an hour (at rush hour PM, and it would never be, because it is throttled by several signalized intersections from Headford Road), the data on the volume of vehicles per hour will be more or less equal to demand for that particular section. Again, if you cannot understand this, then you have no right to participate in this discussion.

    Your analogy doesn't fit, because all those customers have no impediment before queueing for the till; the analogy would only be correct if for each product a customer wanted, a staff member had to retrieve it from the storehouse for the customer, and after going through the till and before leaving, a staff member has to check the items in their grocery bags against their receipt. Wouldn't it be stupid to state that the tills cannot handle the capacity because the time between a customer entering and leaving the supermarket is too long ignoring the other impediments? And wouldn't it be stupid to state that the tills cannot handle the capacity because of the volume of customers and entering and leaving the supermarket even though the volume does not meet the criteria in two research papers for another till?

    Look, I only want you to answer one question, which you conveniently ignored in your previous post, do you really think that there was more than 8,784 vehicles per hour hitting that roundabout?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "do you really think that there was more than 8,784 vehicles per hour hitting that roundabout?"

    I'm not going to explain it a third time.

    "you have no right to participate in this discussion"

    Nice!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Sapient


    OK, I'll concede that was harsh, but you're not participating in the discussion anyway, and arguing in bad faith?

    You won't answer a simple question. You won't respond to any of rebuttals of your argument or concede your mistakes/errors. You won't argue or concede that unless it takes an hour through that particular section the data on the volume of vehicles per hour will be more or less equal to demand (it's simple math), or concede that the demand from other signalized intersections and sections of the road has zero relevance to the capacity of a roundabout section to handle its volume of traffic, not the overall traffic in the city (simple common sense).

    Just answer the simple question, do you think that there was more than 8,784 vehicles per hour hitting that roundabout? So, what was the demand for that roundabout per hour? 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, or all 36,000 vehicles that daily travelled through those roads into the city in 2019?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No interest in engaging with your academic rants, I'm more than qualified in the domain with the helpful addition of real world experience and a solid grounding of common sense.

    Just popped in to encourage you to revisit your flawed response in case it was an oversight.

    "You won't argue or concede that unless it takes an hour through that particular section the data on the volume of vehicles per hour will be more or less equal to demand (it's simple math)"

    Here's another nudge to help - if I approach the data collection point at 6.36pm and get held up in traffic for 25mins before being recorded, I'll be logged as the 7-8pm demand in your interpretation. 25mins is a unfortunately common and moderate delay along there.

    I'll not be directly responding any further as you're not being civil. Hope the above helps.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Provision of safer pedestrian crossings is/was one of the considerations in removing the roundabout.

    It's not just about the flow of cars.

    For those struggling to get out of Sandy Road/Liosban there was also a suggestion to make a new signalised direct exit across the river onto the N6.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was revived.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭MenloPete


    Indeed provision for pedestrians/cyclists ended up being the primary reason quoted by the engineers.

    At the council meeting where the proposal was finally approved, the engineers showed a drone video of pedestrians crossing dangerously at the roundabout which (in my opinion) heavily influenced the vote or at least was used by them as the reason for approving.

    I wonder how many pedestrians will now wait for the green man at each crossing?

    I tried walking from Castlelawn to the Shopping Centre using the green man each time - I forget the exact figures, but it roughly doubled the walking time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Greyhound_


    If decisions in the city council to demolish a roundabout and build an intersection was based on an isolated incident of someone incorrectly crossing the street, there is no hope for Galwegians. I can put up a drone over any roundabout and stage any activity I want. Or I can record for 5 days and cherry pick whatever behavior I want.

    Question, who is showing the city council decision makers drone videos from the current layout, where cars at speed, misjudge the lanes and end up driving into pedestrian waiting areas, cars are parked in the middle of the junction as they have entered it without hope of getting out in time for the lights to change, blocking the traffic and causing even further frustration? Or people now knowing how to proceed through counter-intuitive lanes wanting to change the lane last minute, but others not buying it and not letting them in.

    For the pedestrians or cyclists to cross the roundabout was easy as piece of cake. On the Menlo side it was safe with a strip of pavement dividing the lanes, on the other side there was a light controlled traffic. If anything to improve pedestrians experience, these lights should be regulated, so one does not need to wait 3 minutes for the green light to show up. There was no need to make any green light synchronizations there, as this pedestrian crossing was isolated and did not influence any other traffic. It should be green for the pedestrians within 10 seconds 'on demand'. Nobody would then be 'dangerously crossing at the roundabout'. When the construction works have commenced, miraculously these lights were immediately setup as mentioned by me to be green within 10 seconds to ease life of the construction workers. No comment..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Anyone who thinks crossing at a RAB for pedestrians is as "easy as piece of cake" needs to revisit their perceptions.

    RAB's are, by their very design, anti-pedestrian.

    Even looking along the WDR, where they have gone all out trying to make the pedestrianisation crossings as safe as possible, it's still very easy for cars to come off a RAB there and go through the speed measures in excess of 40kph.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "For the pedestrians or cyclists to cross the roundabout was easy as piece of cake"

    For anything beyond 12 o clock exit was especially dangerous on a bike on that roundabout. Lot of motorists would take the outer lane all the way around to skip traffic so dangerous making your exit on the left without being pushed through to the overtaking lane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Anyone I've spoken to who uses this junction regards it as an utter disaster. Most people now avoid it like the plague, driving traffic onto the Dyke Road. Got caught the other day when some muppet in a campervan got stuck under the low bridge and everyone had to turn around and use the main road. I've noticed a lot more cars turning right at Ballindooley Cross heading into town and going through Menlo at all times of the day.

    I had the misfortune to have to approach the junction from Sandy Road the other day, would have been better off going out the Tuam Road and sitting in Claregalway traffic. It's an absolute sh1tshow for cars coming from Liosban/Sandy Road, barely any time for cars to get through, or the lights have turned red at the new sliproad into Tirellan so traffic turning left from BnadT backs up to the junction and no one gets through. It took about 40 minutes to get from Galway Bay FM to the junction!

    IMO this is the worst clusterf*ck the council have made to date with junction changes. And that's saying a lot!



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭theintern


    This might have been intentional? Direct traffic to the main arteries rather than people skipping down through Liosban and Sandy Road?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,663 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    it is some crac alright coming out of it. not even schools back yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Sapient


    He claims I'm not being "civil", but in the preceding, he pejoratively classifies my citing the most recent peer-reviewed paper on the efficiency of roundabouts versus signalized intersections as a "rant", and still has yet to concede fabricating an assertion and attributing it to me. The engineer hoist with his own petard.

    Again, you fail to grasp your own argument and how flawed it is (seemingly DaCor, too), and I hope that a self-proclaimed (!) domain expert with real-world experience and a solid grounding of common sense would revisit this. Your claiming that the peak volume per hour does not represent the peak demand. If 25 minutes was the peak delay at 6:36PM, then the 7-8PM data point would become the peak volume per hour and would more or less represent peak demand; the demand has to dissipate somewhere. Therefore, unless the duration of navigating through that particular section is more than an hour which length of time cannot encapsulate the delay, the data on the volume of vehicles per hour will be more or less equal to demand for that particular section.

    You won't engage or answer the question, because the logical conclusion proceeding it defeats any argument for removing the roundabout based upon increasing the efficiency of junction. Even if there was over 8,000 vehicles, the cited paper states that roundabouts are 1/3 faster than the most efficient signalized intersections and twice as fast as the most inefficient one.

    Correct, and as DaCor stated, roundabouts are anti-pedestrian: their efficiency for vehicles derives from not stopping. I think that it is the only valid reason for changing the junction, but in order to placate others i.e. those using vehicles, they had to peddle that this change would reduce traffic delays. It definitely won't, and will probably as a result of changing to a less efficient signalized intersection and a result of induced demand (wait till the council wraps their heads around that particular concept!), increase the traffic delays.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    One minor correction, the throughput for all modes is increased with a 4 arm signal junction over a RAB. So when you refer to efficiency, the signal junction has a higher capacity.

    But all of that counts for nought as the road network is far above designed capacity as a whole anyway.

    You could rip out Kirwan and make it a free flowing junction for all arms of it and it would still be jammed up during peak times

    The only solution is to get those with alternatives, out of their cars



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Laviski


    build the outer bypass.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Decision on the ring road is due in the next week, by next Friday 27th. Unless they delay it yet again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Whatever about the roundabouts working or not, one things for sure and that is the traffic has gotten worse and worse for every roundabout they removed. It looks like they are trying to facilitate all the poor dubs coming off the motorway who couldn't navigate the roundabouts and who now have lovely streamlined intersections to take them directly to their holiday homes.

    I tried to do a few bits and pieces in galway this evening and it was complete chaos! The traffic over the quincentenery was almost backed up to the hospital roundabout all people going left to the new junction. It's at the point now where ambulances coming from the N59 will be locked out of the back entrance of the hospital all because of this new idiotic junction. You also have cars coming down from bother mor roundabout getting stuck in the middle of the junction trying to turn right onto terryland. It's nuts!

    There was never a problem with the kirwan roundabout, it was always a problem with the junction at the quincentenary bridge leading to cars getting backed up as far as the roundabout. The council are clearly just painting over the cracks now with this move - they just want to get rid of the image of cars getting trapped on the roundabout.

    Also, as everyone knows, much of the traffic in Galway is caused by Mayo commuters of which we have now severed one of the key veins they use to go home in the evening.

    As others have mentioned above, if it's this bad now, just wait for the schools to come back, heads will roll once that happens.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Your post is a virtual copy+paste of many each time they remove a RAB, and yet life goes on. There will be no heads rolling.

    The only difference is the junctions are safer (marginally) for pedestrians and cyclists and throughtput capacity is increased.

    On a side note, I find it hilarious that the very people causing traffic are complaining about the traffic they are causing.

    If you're using a more sustainable method of travel then traffic does not impact you as much and as further measures are implemented it will impact you less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Yes we should all ban the demon car. That'll sort everything 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Made the same old mistakes with this new junction as they did with all of the other junctions they put in. The turning lanes are far too short. Have a line of cars all wanting to turn left but their traffic is backed up by those wanting to go straight unable to due to traffic being blocked up on the straight.

    What is the most amazing is that the one roundabout that should have been changed as a priority for safety reasons is one of the few still left. That one by the petrol station at the top of Sandy Road. The margin for error or hesitation on that roundabout is minute.

    Also incredible, I lived on Lough Atalia the year the junction there was put in. We were all on here complaining about how awful traffic became when the junction went in but if anything, it has only gotten worse. Particularly when coming into the city via Dublin Rd.

    They really shanked it with the road planning for Galway City.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,261 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    You'd imagine the delays around Lough Atalia junction are more to do with higher traffic volumes and a far busier retail park and hotel there than before.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Never said that but as it turns out, if there were no cars there would be no traffic 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Laviski


    any vehicle related its the devil.

    in the mean time


    Build the new bridge (aka bypass)



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