Lions Tour

TomsOnTheRoof · 06-07-2021 08:06PM

The worst thing is they could have mitigated against this by ensuring that the South African teams were actually in bubbles for longer than a few days before their games. Whole tour is ****ed now. Absolutely ridiculous.

Squidgy Black · 06-07-2021 08:15PM

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

The worst thing is they could have mitigated against this by ensuring that the South African teams were actually in bubbles for longer than a few days before their games. Whole tour is ****ed now. Absolutely ridiculous.

Hosting it in South Africa was always going to be a disaster no matter what they did to be honest, the country was never really prepared in terms of a vaccine rollout, there's been outcry since the start of the year that they were falling well behind schedule.

It's a shame the UK government didn't guarantee the tour.

ScissorPaperRock · 06-07-2021 08:18PM

Thought the players were vaccinated. Hard to imagine how these numbers possible if so.

Edit: I guess these cases might be among support staff.

Burkie1203 · 06-07-2021 08:18PM

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Thought the players were vaccinated. Hard to imagine how these numbers possible if so.

Vaccines don't stop you contracting or spreading the virus. They protect you against getting sick.

ScissorPaperRock · 06-07-2021 08:22PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Vaccines don't stop you contracting or spreading the virus. They protect you against getting sick.

I was under the impression that they reduced the likelihood of infection as well as the severity if infected

salmocab · 06-07-2021 08:26PM

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

I was under the impression that they reduced the likelihood of infection as well as the severity if infected

They do, it seems to me something isn’t quite right in this but regardless this is descending into a farce. If there’s a case in the lions camp it will be a disaster. This has been a logistical nightmare with too many parts to it.

sydthebeat · 06-07-2021 08:31PM

The bokke are vaccinated since the start of June. The vaccination doesn't stop you from catching the virus, reduces the risk yes, but it doesn't offer complete immunity from catching it.

Larbre34 · 06-07-2021 08:32PM

salmocab wrote: »

I’m inclined to agree, I thought when the rainbow cup was a mess that they should have just said then that they were postponing it a year giving plenty of time to sort out all the issues.
This is a mess.

On that, I agree with Keith Wood and others, postpone it 4 years and the subsequent tours to Aus and NZ accordingly.

21-22 is going to be a massively demanding season of new competitions and hopefully big games in front of packed houses, along with a 14 month season up to RWC23 to follow. The best thing would be to leave the Lions alone until 2025.

ScissorPaperRock · 06-07-2021 08:36PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

The bokke are vaccinated since the start of June. The vaccination doesn't stop you from catching the virus, reduces the risk yes, but it doesn't offer complete immunity from catching it.

From a quick read around, it seems that the rate of 'breakthrough infections' has been very low according to available (if limited) data. So it's a bit surprising that this would happen to vaccinated people in what would be a relatively controlled environment. Very unfortunate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/well/live/delta-variant-vaccines-masks.html

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm

Burkie1203 · 06-07-2021 08:37PM

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

From a quick read around, it seems that the rate of 'breakthrough infections' has been very low according to available (if limited) data. So it's a bit surprising that this would happen to vaccinated people in what would be a relatively controlled environment. Very unfortunate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/well/live/delta-variant-vaccines-masks.html

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm

How controlled is the environment though.

Former Former Former · 06-07-2021 08:37PM

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

I was under the impression that they reduced the likelihood of infection as well as the severity if infected

Correct.

Squidgy Black · 06-07-2021 08:39PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

The bokke are vaccinated since the start of June. The vaccination doesn't stop you from catching the virus, reduces the risk yes, but it doesn't offer complete immunity from catching it.

Especially with this delta variant. The figures coming out of Israel which used pfizer only, which I think SA only had too, 55% of their cases in their recent spike were vaccinated individuals.

swiwi_ · 06-07-2021 08:41PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Vaccines don't stop you contracting or spreading the virus. They protect you against getting sick.

Um…no. Unless you have science to back you up??

Leroy42 · 06-07-2021 08:42PM

Former Former Former wrote: »

Correct.

Wrong. The vaccine does nothing to reduce infection. It reduces the effects.

But a fully vaccinated person can get getbthe virus and pass it on.

Burkie1203 · 06-07-2021 08:43PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Um…no. Unless you have science to back you up??

What do you mean?

swiwi_ · 06-07-2021 08:45PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What do you mean?

Do you have a scientific paper to say the vaccine merrily let’s you get infected and pass it on without getting sick? Or are you just making things up as you go along?

Former Former Former · 06-07-2021 08:46PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wrong. The vaccine does nothing to reduce infection. It reduces the effects.

But a fully vaccinated person can get getbthe virus and pass it on.

Like most posts that begin with "Wrong.", it's actually you who's wrong.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm?s_cid=mm7013e3_w

fitz · 06-07-2021 08:47PM

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

From a quick read around, it seems that the rate of 'breakthrough infections' has been very low according to available (if limited) data. So it's a bit surprising that this would happen to vaccinated people in what would be a relatively controlled environment. Very unfortunate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/well/live/delta-variant-vaccines-masks.html

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm

You can't really trust that data though. If 95% effective, that means the majority of infection post-vaccination will be asymptomatic, and aren't likely to be detected by testing. These guys are being regularly tested, so it was picked up. Every indication is that while vaccination lowered the risk of infection as well as illness with previous variants, delta looks to be changing that.

Burkie1203 · 06-07-2021 08:49PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Do you have a scientific paper to say the vaccine merrily let’s you get infected and pass it on without getting sick? Or are you just making things up as you go along?

CDC website

Studies show that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19. Getting a COVID-19 vaccine will also help keep you from getting seriously ill even if you do get COVID-19. Learn more about the benefits of getting vaccinated.

COVID-19 vaccines teach our immune systems how to recognize and fight the virus that causes COVID-19. It typically takes 2 weeks after vaccination for the body to build protection (immunity) against the virus that causes COVID-19. That means it is possible a person could still get COVID-19 before or just after vaccination and then get sick because the vaccine did not have enough time to build protection. People are considered fully vaccinated 2 weeks after their second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, or 2 weeks after the single-dose Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen COVID-19 vaccine.

awec · 06-07-2021 08:50PM

salmocab wrote: »

I’m inclined to agree, I thought when the rainbow cup was a mess that they should have just said then that they were postponing it a year giving plenty of time to sort out all the issues.
This is a mess.

Unions would never allow this. They will all have their eyes on lucrative 2022 tours of their own.

It was this year or never.

ScissorPaperRock · 06-07-2021 08:50PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wrong. The vaccine does nothing to reduce infection. It reduces the effects.

But a fully vaccinated person can get getbthe virus and pass it on.

That's not true.

Studies suggest the rate of breakthrough infections in vaccinated people is very low.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2021 08:51PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

On that, I agree with Keith Wood and others, postpone it 4 years and the subsequent tours to Aus and NZ accordingly.

21-22 is going to be a massively demanding season of new competitions and hopefully big games in front of packed houses, along with a 14 month season up to RWC23 to follow. The best thing would be to leave the Lions alone until 2025.

None of the Sanzaar unions would agree to that.

swiwi_ · 06-07-2021 08:52PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

CDC website

Studies show that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19. Getting a COVID-19 vaccine will also help keep you from getting seriously ill even if you do get COVID-19. Learn more about the benefits of getting vaccinated.

COVID-19 vaccines teach our immune systems how to recognize and fight the virus that causes COVID-19. It typically takes 2 weeks after vaccination for the body to build protection (immunity) against the virus that causes COVID-19. That means it is possible a person could still get COVID-19 before or just after vaccination and then get sick because the vaccine did not have enough time to build protection. People are considered fully vaccinated 2 weeks after their second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, or 2 weeks after the single-dose Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen COVID-19 vaccine.

Link please. Obviously it takes time for the body to create an antibody defence. But after that you don’t generally catch on pass on the infection. Vaccination is not just to protect the individual but also the herd.

Cosmo Kramer · 06-07-2021 08:53PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wrong. The vaccine does nothing to reduce infection. It reduces the effects.

But a fully vaccinated person can get getbthe virus and pass it on.

I don't think it does nothing - it does reduce the likelihood of transmission as far as I know. But not completely, it is still possible to get it and spread it. The vaccines are also not fully effective until two weeks after the second dose. Assuming the Saffers were vaccinated it's still possible that it happened too late before the camp and this may have caused the issue.

The other problem is that the vaccines were designed to treat the original version of Covid. So with every mutation the vaccines become less and less effective.

The danger is that a variation comes along that renders the current vaccines largely ineffective, even against serious illness. If that happens we're back to square one again, but that's for another forum I guess.

Burkie1203 · 06-07-2021 08:58PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Link please. Obviously it takes time for the body to create an antibody defence. But after that you don’t generally catch on pass on the infection. Vaccination is not just to protect the individual but also the herd.

Yes, but variants may be an issue too

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html

Also worth a look

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/covid-infections-in-israel-spike-by-50-percent-1.9973150

Burkie1203 · 06-07-2021 08:59PM

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I don't think it does nothing - it does reduce the likelihood of transmission as far as I know. But not completely, it is still possible to get it and spread it. The vaccines are also not fully effective until two weeks after the second dose. Assuming the Saffers were vaccinated it's still possible that it happened too late before the camp and this may have caused the issue.

The other problem is that the vaccines were designed to treat the original version of Covid. So with every mutation the vaccines become less and less effective.

The danger is that a variation comes along that renders the current vaccines largely ineffective, even against serious illness. If that happens we're back to square one again, but that's for another forum I guess.

Are the Boks in a proper bubble or are they coming and going, mixing with hotel staff etc?

Also some of the Bok squad travelled from Europe recently (Kolbe for one, with his family)

Dweba
Wiese
Ooesthuizen
Snyman
DDA
Van Rensburg

Few others travelled from Japan

Former Former Former · 06-07-2021 09:03PM

fitz wrote: »

You can't really trust that data though.

It's the CDC. They are quite literally the most respected authority on infectious diseases on the planet.

Blut2 · 06-07-2021 09:06PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Link please. Obviously it takes time for the body to create an antibody defence. But after that you don’t generally catch on pass on the infection. Vaccination is not just to protect the individual but also the herd.

Vaccine effectiveness in preventing both infection and symptomatic disease fell to 64% since June 6, the Health Ministry said. At the same time the vaccine was 93% effective in preventing hospitalizations and serious illness from the coronavirus.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-sees-drop-pfizer-vaccine-protection-against-infections-still-strong-2021-07-05/

This is the confirmed real world data for Pfizer, hot off the presses this week in Israel.

Theres every chance the Boks who tested positive had already been vaccinated. Its nowhere near a bullet proof guarantee to not get covid - it just reduces your chance of infection by about 2/3rds, it seems.

fitz · 06-07-2021 09:15PM

Former Former Former wrote: »

It's the CDC. They are quite literally the most respected authority on infectious diseases on the planet.

I trust that their data is accurate, but the risk is that it's not complete. Infected aymptomatic people will not get tested. If you're fully vaccinated and you don't feel sick, your not going to be part of that data.

Have a great of the article posted above about infections and hospitalizations in Israel... High percentages were fully vaccinated. Have a look at the WHO site, they are calling out the risk of infection even after vaccination (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-44---delta-variant-and-vaccines).

I get people want this to be over, but ignoring some of these indicators feels like wishful thinking to me. I think there's a lag in data here, and fully expecting that we'll soon have information that shows lower protection against infection/transmission of delta, even if protection against illness remains high.

Edit: also, that CDC link is data from April. Not sure you'd be seeing delta variant data included in that.

Former Former Former · 06-07-2021 09:21PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

The bokke are vaccinated since the start of June.

Just on this, I don't think they are.

Here's Rassie on 28 May, talking very much in the future tense...

https://supersport.com/general/chat/news/210528_Boks_to_be_fully_vaccinated_for_Lions_series

Most likely explanation is that some of them have had one dose, some have had two, some have had none so there's a mix of immunity statuses.

Lions Tour

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