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False rape accusation...who would you believe?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    If you seriously hold the DRCC funded report up as some beacon of truth/fact, I don't think anyone can or should take you seriously.

    Your only hope is to open that report you hold so dear and write the first line of the executive summary 100 times. It's not too late. :D

    DRCC didn’t fund the report you linked on which I based my calculations.

    Your link shows that unreported rapes outnumber false allegations between 18 and 240 to 1.

    If you provided the link why are you now trying to row back on it now? Is it because it shows the opposite of what you thought it did?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    An unreported false allegation is one not reported to the Gardaí, but instead is spread among the accusers friends/family/community to smear the innocent person accused.



    I was pretty clear when I said the figure of 60% was my own belief. There is no way to back up ANY figures and if I were to by my own observations, I would have to say 100% are false, because I know of a couple of false accusations which were made and I know of zero rapes that happened within my own extended circle over the years.

    Whether a false allegation is reported or not, damage is done and I believe it's far more common than the like of the DRCC

    Yes but that does not mean you dont know people who have been raped. I would imagine most people we know who have been raped we don't know that they have.

    And really you know people who go around saying they have been raped yet they have not reported it to the gardai. I would think it is extremely strange for a person to say they have been raped and not report it. Would people either claim to be raped and report it or dont report it and don't say they have been raped to others.

    Also how is an unreported false allegation proven to be false. If it is never reported it never goes to trial. The only way I see an unreported false allegation can be proven to be false is if the accuser admits they had made up the allegation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    DRCC didn’t fund the report you linked on which I based my calculations.

    Your link shows that unreported rapes outnumber false allegations between 18 and 240 to 1.

    If you provided the link why are you now trying to row back on it now? Is it because it shows the opposite of what you thought it did?

    Are you even reading what I have been writing? I think not, as it seems you are cherry picking the parts you think you have a leg to stand on....plus you did admit that you are treating my posts as nonsense and yet you continue to engage after signing off on the debate a few posts back :pac:

    By your own admission, the link I posted was cited in the DRCC report. Why was it cited? Because parts of it suited their agenda. Why did I post it? Have a look back, because I already answered that question and won't repeat myself when you aren't bothering to read what I have said. There is no rowing back.
    ittakestwo wrote: »
    Yes but that does not mean you dont know people who have been raped. I would imagine most people we know who have been raped we don't know that they have.

    That's partly the point I've been making which another poster doesn't seem to comprehend. We simply do not know. We don't know if true unreported figure are 10% or 90%. I'm sure I have met people who were raped and was never aware of it.
    And really you know people who go around saying they have been raped yet they have not reported it to the gardai. I would think it is extremely strange for a person to say they have been raped and not report it. Would people either claim to be raped and report it or dont report it and don't say they have been raped to others.

    Three occasions that come to mind:
    1) An ex-girlfriend claimed to me that she had been raped before I met her by a friend of her friends boyfriend. She spent hours going through the ordeal she had experienced with floods of tears streaming down her face. It was horrible and I felt so angry at the scumbag who did this to her and my heart was broken for my ex. I insisted she needed to report it, but she said she was afraid. She then told her friend and through the grapevine I heard the guy she named got a pretty serious beating because of it. She then told me that she reported it to the Gardaí and the guy had been reported by another girl she was told. I was a teenager and even then I found it odd that there was no further contact by the Gardaí. We grew apart and years later when I asked her if the Gardaí had ever got in touch about the rape report, I had to remind her about it before she burst out laughing and admitted that it was just her being a silly attention seeking teenager. She shrugged her shoulders when I asked if the guy getting a beating was true or not. Suffice to say, I had no more contact with her after that. I was relieved she never became an AGS member which was one of her potential career paths. We have enough dishonest members roaming around.

    2) A woman I know made a false report the Gardaí. The accused was arrested and questioned and lost his job when news spread. He nearly committed suicide with the pressure. It was proven through communications that the allegation was false and malicious and nothing happened to the accuser who continued to claim she was raped. My understanding is the accuser wanted to have sex with the accused and he wasn't interested, so she decided to teach him a lesson.

    3) A distant relative claimed she was drugged and raped by some guy she went out with. My mother heard the story and relayed it to me. I'm not even going to get into the farcical story I was told, but suffice to say....Hollywood couldn't have made it up as well as this. Proper Gone Girl stuff it was. She said she reported it to the Gardaí but I know she didn't because I know her son and even he called it BS.


    Also how is an unreported false allegation proven to be false. If it is never reported it never goes to trial. The only way I see an unreported false allegation can be proven to be false is if the accuser admits they had made up the allegation.

    You might have been mixing up some of what I was saying earlier on this point when I was giving my view on the figures. But proven false allegations that have not been reported can be proven if the person admits it, or is caught in a bold faced lie....for example; She claims she was raped by Mr. X last Sunday at noon at his house while she dropped off groceries from the local Centra. Except the Centra was closed on the Sunday and Mr. X spent the Sunday in hospital recovering from a surgery he had undergone the previous day and hadn't returned until the Tuesday. The person she tells about the fake rape knows about the Centra and that Mr. X was in hospital.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba




    Three occasions that come to mind:
    1) An ex-girlfriend claimed to me that she had been raped before I met her by a friend of her friends boyfriend. She spent hours going through the ordeal she had experienced with floods of tears streaming down her face. It was horrible and I felt so angry at the scumbag who did this to her and my heart was broken for my ex. I insisted she needed to report it, but she said she was afraid. She then told her friend and through the grapevine I heard the guy she named got a pretty serious beating because of it. She then told me that she reported it to the Gardaí and the guy had been reported by another girl she was told. I was a teenager and even then I found it odd that there was no further contact by the Gardaí. We grew apart and years later when I asked her if the Gardaí had ever got in touch about the rape report, I had to remind her about it before she burst out laughing and admitted that it was just her being a silly attention seeking teenager. She shrugged her shoulders when I asked if the guy getting a beating was true or not. Suffice to say, I had no more contact with her after that. I was relieved she never became an AGS member which was one of her potential career paths. We have enough dishonest members roaming around.

    2) A woman I know made a false report the Gardaí. The accused was arrested and questioned and lost his job when news spread. He nearly committed suicide with the pressure. It was proven through communications that the allegation was false and malicious and nothing happened to the accuser who continued to claim she was raped. My understanding is the accuser wanted to have sex with the accused and he wasn't interested, so she decided to teach him a lesson.

    3) A distant relative claimed she was drugged and raped by some guy she went out with. My mother heard the story and relayed it to me. I'm not even going to get into the farcical story I was told, but suffice to say....Hollywood couldn't have made it up as well as this. Proper Gone Girl stuff it was. She said she reported it to the Gardaí but I know she didn't because I know her son and even he called it BS.
    Probably not new to many but I was thinking how false accusations will generally involve premeditation. Usually with offences, the punishment is more severe on crimes involving premeditation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    Are you even reading what I have been writing?

    I don’t really need to read your posts, the 2 reports you linked provided all the information I needed.

    Information that allowed me demonstrate how rare false allegations are.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    iptba wrote: »
    Probably not new to many but I was thinking how false accusations will generally involve premeditation. Usually with offences, the punishment is more severe on crimes involving premeditation.

    I'd imagine so in most cases. Unfortunately the iron-clad DRCC report didn't really cover that aspect. They were too busy churning anonymous figures so they could say "studies have found" yada yada, men bad, "and the data suggests" yada yada, women never lie. :rolleyes:

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    I don’t really need to read your posts, the 2 reports you linked provided all the information I needed.

    Information that allowed me demonstrate how rare false allegations are.

    And that says it all. Thanks ;)

    Ever thought of joining the force?

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    And that says it all. Thanks ;)

    Ever thought of joining the force?

    Oh, I read your posts. But I don’t really need to ;)


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    I don’t really need to read your posts, the 2 reports you linked provided all the information I needed.

    Information that allowed me demonstrate how rare false allegations are.

    But that poster knows three women that made up stories about being raped!
    Clearly there are more false reports then rapes..........


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    bubblypop wrote: »
    But that poster knows three women that made up stories about being raped!
    Clearly there are more false reports then rapes..........

    He knows 3 women who made up stories and I know one poster who made up 3 stories.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    There are plenty of women who will lie about such things for various reasons.

    As Jordan Peterson points out men (generally) show aggression physically and women (generally) show aggression by gossip, innuendo and reputation destruction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    bubblypop wrote: »
    But that poster knows three women that made up stories about being raped!
    Clearly there are more false reports then rapes..........

    Well you would know bubbly, wouldn't you? You did say before you also knew of women from your work who made false allegations. They didn't suffer any consequences either iirc from what you said. You didn't seem to care then either that men had their lives ruined by manipulative, vindictive women. If AGS did their jobs properly, there would be less false accusations and a resulting higher conviction rate for rape.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    He knows 3 women who made up stories and I know one poster who made up 3 stories.

    Still feeling burnt over that report I see :D

    I only wish those "stories" were not real. Small sample of how evil some people are for attention/revenge/whatever

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Well you would know bubbly, wouldn't you? You did say before you also knew of women from your work who made false allegations. They didn't suffer any consequences either iirc from what you said. You didn't seem to care then either that men had their lives ruined by manipulative, vindictive women. If AGS did their jobs properly, there would be less false accusations and a resulting higher conviction rate for rape.

    Not correct.
    I came on to post about women I knew who did make false accusations and were prosecuted for it. Trying to point out how, no-one wants false allegations, particularly those people that do a lot of work for nothing!
    But all I got then was abuse from posters and accusations of being in the side of women who make false accusations, and accusations of working in women's health or some other such rubbish!

    I'm not sure what kind of work you do, but I bet you don't like doing lots of work, then finding out it was for nothing.

    AGS do their job, as best they can for the majority of them, and given that women have been prosecuted and convicted for making false rape claims, they are doing what you claim they are not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Not correct.
    I came on to post about women I knew who did make false accusations and were prosecuted for it. Trying to point out how, no-one wants false allegations, particularly those people that do a lot of work for nothing!
    But all I got then was abuse from posters and accusations of being in the side of women who make false accusations, and accusations of working in women's health or some other such rubbish!

    I'm not sure what kind of work you do, but I bet you don't like doing lots of work, then finding out it was for nothing.

    AGS do their job, as best they can for the majority of them, and given that women have been prosecuted and convicted for making false rape claims, they are doing what you claim they are not.

    If I remember correctly, the women you spoke about didn't serve any time which is what the issue was. The men they accused likely still suffer the consequences of the allegations.

    Nobody likes doing anything without getting a result. False allegations are often hard to prove too and if prosecuted, almost never do the women serve time. And investigating a false allegation is seen to discourage other women from coming forward, so it's not exactly top priority.

    I've no doubt that there are many great members of AGS. I've met a couple of them myself. Met a couple of proper @arseholes too who had no respect in the line of duty. It's no secret there is a rotten culture in AGS. Some are just criminals with a badge as proven in public reports over the years and in very recent times.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    If I remember correctly, the women you spoke about didn't serve any time which is what the issue was. The men they accused likely still suffer the consequences of the allegations.

    Nobody likes doing anything without getting a result. False allegations are often hard to prove too and if prosecuted, almost never do the women serve time. And investigating a false allegation is seen to discourage other women from coming forward, so it's not exactly top priority.

    I've no doubt that there are many great members of AGS. I've met a couple of them myself. Met a couple of proper @arseholes too who had no respect in the line of duty. It's no secret there is a rotten culture in AGS. Some are just criminals with a badge as proven in public reports over the years and in very recent times.


    Sentencing is a matter for the courts, nothing to do with AGS.

    'And investigating a false allegation is seen to discourage other women from coming forward, so it's not exactly top priority'
    Any evidence or link for this? Or is this another thing you made up?

    and do you know what? There are arseholes everywhere in life, met a few myself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Sentencing is a matter for the courts, nothing to do with AGS.

    'And investigating a false allegation is seen to discourage other women from coming forward, so it's not exactly top priority'
    Any evidence or link for this? Or is this another thing you made up?

    and do you know what? There are arseholes everywhere in life, met a few myself.

    The courst have nobody to sentence if the Gardaí don't investigate. I'm surprised you asked for a link. This narrative has been pushed and pushed for years. "Women need to be believed" and "For fear they won't be believed" b0llix. The Gardaí are given bad press for not believing all women who come forward with an allegation, i'm sure you don't need links to know that much is true.

    There are indeed @rseholes everywhere. Just it seems a disproportionate number gravitate to a job with a badge and a hat. Must be horrible for the good ones to see the rot and have their lives ruined if they blow that whistle.

    I did find an interesting document talking about police perceptions of false allegations.
    https://researchonline.gcu.ac.uk/ws/files/24041201/L.McMillan_JoGs_False_Allegations_Main_Document.pdf

    What I found most interesting is how the author dismisses the wealth of knowledge and years of professional experience by the police who gave their views on how common false allegations are. Instead, the author reverts to the stats which were gathered making anonymous calls and collecting fudged, unverifiable data by the likes of the DRCC.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    Still feeling burnt over that report I see :D

    I only wish those "stories" were not real. Small sample of how evil some people are for attention/revenge/whatever

    Why would I be feeling burnt? You effectively proved my point for me and when you realised this you started fabricating anecdotes to support a point you’d already discredited.

    Gas stuff altogether.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    Why would I be feeling burnt? You effectively proved my point for me and when you realised this you started fabricating anecdotes to support a point you’d already discredited.

    Gas stuff altogether.

    You thought you had your point solidified with made up figures. When it was pointed out that the report was biased, unverifiable and complete nonsense, you changed from smug and righteous to snarky and delusional. Cherry picking and pushing a false narrative can't change the fact that the report you relied on to prove your point was a work of fiction.

    You had resigned and wanted to leave the conversation, but you couldn't do that and have been trying with futility to suggest that I have proven your point with false figures :pac::pac:

    Brilliant :D

    I'm hoping you have links to more reports proving your point, because the last one was priceless. And sure the DRCC want another chunk of taxpayers money to fund another round of fake figures. They'll probably get their call list from PULSE this time.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]



    What I found most interesting is how the author dismisses the wealth of knowledge and years of professional experience by the police who gave their views on how common false allegations are.

    A little like posters on here, who ignore the knowledge of other posters and make stuff up, because it doesn't suit their agenda.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    bubblypop wrote: »
    A little like posters on here, who ignore the knowledge of other posters and make stuff up, because it doesn't suit their agenda.

    Or more like posters on here who deflect and hide by ignoring questions which would shed some light on their biased views.

    The author in the report had a clear bias when the real world experience of the police officers dealing with complainants was dismissed over some survey data, the likes of which the DRCC carried out.

    Would you trust data extracted by an officer with decades of experience, or an anonymised phone call made by a rape crisis organisation employee?

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    bubblypop wrote: »
    SNIP
    it doesn't suit their agenda.
    Would you trust data extracted by an officer with decades of experience, or an anonymised phone call made by a rape crisis organisation employee?

    I didn't expect an answer there. Possible conflict of interest.

    I took a look at the report I linked most recently and not surprisingly she lectures in Gender Studies, Sociology and to my horror, criminology. No gold stars for guessing who the victim and criminals are in her head. :rolleyes:

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    I didn't expect an answer there. Possible conflict of interest.

    I took a look at the report I linked most recently and not surprisingly she lectures in Gender Studies, Sociology and to my horror, criminology. No gold stars for guessing who the victim and criminals are in her head. :rolleyes:

    Absolute bias and lack of credibility in anything pushed by someone flashing a gender studies degree or god forbid masters. Even womens studies would be an upgrade and thats not saying much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    Sexual consent classes to be offered to third-level students
    Measures mean colleges will have to bring in mechanisms for anonymous reporting of harassment
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sexual-consent-classes-to-be-offered-to-third-level-students-1.4605149

    We are not there yet, but it is possible at some stage we might end up with some similar kangaroo courts in colleges to those that have existed in the US.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    iptba wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sexual-consent-classes-to-be-offered-to-third-level-students-1.4605149

    We are not there yet, but it is possible at some stage we might end up with some similar kangaroo courts in colleges to those that have existed in the US.

    I heard this being discussed on the radio. The clown they had on claimed that about 60% of 1st year students had personally experienced forced penetration. She cited male, female and non-binary students which all added up to about 60%. Of course, they didn't keep her on the station long enough for anyone to call in and ask any questions.

    More fantasy figures and no doubt the DRCC are salivating and looking for her phone number to offer her a job to conduct the next taxpayer paid survey.

    Free Palestine from Hamas



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Just in case anyone thinks only men can be victims of false allegations of sexual offences.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9718027/Lady-Nourse-describes-three-years-pure-hell-acquitted-molesting-boy.html

    If you have been relying on the Irish media, you will be shocked to learn the ordeal suffered by the widow of one of Britain’s most senior judges about whom there was not the slightest suspicion before this man suddenly came forward just days after tried to to get money from her. But the Irish media have largely ignored the succession of failed prosecutions of prominent men in Britain whose final years were destroyed by utterly bogus allegations alleging sex offences from decades ago.

    Ironically, this lady’s husband was Master of the Rolls I.e. successor to Lord Denham, the judge who dismissed the case brought by the Birmingham Six against the police because their claims presented “such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further.”

    But the British Home Secretary, like our own Minister for Justice (the one on leave and the interim one) thinks the problem is getting more guilty verdicts, regardless of the evidence. Not surprising when the media shows so little interest in these shocking stories of legal terror.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Myth About Rape Myths

    http://empathygap.uk/?p=3706


    ---

    “Training” juries prior to trial, which the petition requests, is a

    terribly disturbing suggestion. We know who will do the “training”,

    those whom the establishment consider “experts” in the subject. It

    would subvert the purpose of an independent jury, namely that the

    accused be judged by his peers: ordinary untainted citizens. Any

    “education” prior to the trial is prejudicial to this ideal, even if

    it were of benign motivation. It would not be of benign motivation –

    it would be motivated by the objective of gaining more convictions,

    not a more accurate verdict. As just one example, what if the jury

    were told, as they certainly would be, that “false allegations of rape

    are extremely rare”? If the jurors believed it, the verdict would be

    assured.

    ---

     In 2010 Professor Thomas also concluded that,


    ‘Jury conviction rates for rape vary according to the gender and age

    of the complainant, with high conviction rates for some female

    complainants and low conviction rates for some male complainants. This

    challenges the view that juries’ failure to convict in rape cases is

    due to juror bias against female complainants.‘


    In other words it is men, not women, who get short-changed by the

    justice system when complaining about rape.


    ---

    In respect of the petition’s claims regarding jurors’ widespread

    belief in the “rape myths”, Thomas was scathing…


    “At the time of the petition there had been no research in England and

    Wales with real jurors on the issue of whether they accepted commonly

    held rape myths or understood judges’ directions on such myths. This

    meant that the petition’s claim that research showed jurors accepted

    commonly held rape myths and did not understood judges’ directions on

    these myths could not have been correct.”


    That’s academic speak for “lying toerags”.


    What Thomas actually found was,


    “Hardly any jurors believe what are often referred to as widespread

    myths and stereotypes about rape and sexual assault. The overwhelming

    majority of jurors do not believe that rape must leave bruises or

    marks, that a person will always fight back when being raped, that

    dressing or acting provocatively or going out alone at night is

    inviting rape, that men cannot be raped or that rapes will always be

    reported immediately. The small proportion of jurors who do believe

    any of these myths or stereotypes amounts to less than one person on a

    jury [of 12].”



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    ---

    Supreme Court judge has suggested proposals for “rebalancing” the criminal trial process so as to achieve “real” protection for the rights of victims, particularly those alleging rape and sexual assault.

    Implementation of the proposals would potentially lead to more positive experiences for victims while still protecting a defendant’s rights, according to an article co-authored by Mr Justice Peter Charleton and Orlaith Cross, a judicial assistant to the Supreme Court.

    ---

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/supreme-court-judge-proposes-rebalancing-of-criminal-trials-to-protect-victims-1.4722947



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Man sues the State after spending a year in jail because of a “fabricated” rape claim


    Eighteen months prior to making the complaint against the man, the woman had claimed she was raped by another unrelated individual.

    She later withdrew this allegation and admitted that it was fabricated arising out of her frustration due to her history of sexual abuse, family problems and alcohol issues.

    So he was stuck in jail although his accuser had already admitted to making a false rape claim. How long did it take the Gardai to put 2 and 2 together?

    No action taken against this woman but we are all on the hook if the courts accept his claim.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba



    Consideration was given to prosecuting the woman for wasting Garda time, but she was not charged due to her personal circumstances.

    Shortly after the man received the information about the complainant the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) entered ‘a nolle prosequi’ in his case, ending the prosecution and leading to his release from prison.

    However, the man claims he suffered great harm due to the time spent in prison. His relationship broke down, resulting in a lack of access to his daughter, and he lost his job, he claims.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/man-wrongly-accused-of-rape-sues-over-time-spent-in-prison-1.4733231



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