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Drylining question

  • 23-06-2021 12:27pm
    #1
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭


    Afternoon all.



    We are looking at purchasing an old terraced house, which is solid brick built.



    The current drylining is a mess, and the bedrooms look like they were configured to squeeze in an extra room (probably with bunk beds!).



    It also looks like the chimney downstairs was removed, but the upstairs is hidden behind some protuding drylining.



    Given we aren't chasing a grant here, would I be wrong in assuming that the best bet would be strip back to the original brick walls, and then get in battens and insulated drylining?


Comments

  • #2
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,163 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Difficult to call without knowing the full wall make up: brick may be a facade.
    what age?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #3
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Difficult to call without knowing the full wall make up: brick may be a facade.
    what age?


    Early 1900s or thereabouts. Pretty sure it is solid brick throughout.


  • #4
    Builderfromhell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭Builderfromhell


    In my experience of building dry lining is seldom done properly and if you do elect to remove what is there and put in new dry-lining then I would recommend you allow a gap of about 1" between the insulation and plasterboard to accommodate wiring and plumbing.
    I always advise people to externally insulate as this, if done properly, avoids cold bridging.


  • #5
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Builderfromhell wrote: »
    In my experience of building dry lining is seldom done properly and if you do elect to remove what is there and put in new dry-lining then I would recommend you allow a gap of about 1" between the insulation and plasterboard to accommodate wiring and plumbing.
    I always advise people to externally insulate as this, if done properly, avoids cold bridging.


    Is this something which can be done OK by someone who is handy enough at DIY?


  • #6
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Builderfromhell wrote: »
    In my experience of building dry lining is seldom done properly and if you do elect to remove what is there and put in new dry-lining then I would recommend you allow a gap of about 1" between the insulation and plasterboard to accommodate wiring and plumbing.
    I always advise people to externally insulate as this, if done properly, avoids cold bridging.

    As importantly or even more importantly, possibly more particularily so in a potential draughty older house than EWI at this point, would to me be fitting a complete interior airtightness layer. Imo any old or older house that either doesnt have drylining or is being renovated is an excellent opportunity to fit an airtightness layer, which is an essential other element that is part of insulation that people dont seem to be aware of.


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  • #7
    rostalof
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭rostalof


    Fixing battens straight onto the wall will be fun in an old house. The walls will be very uneven and you'll need to do a lot of packing for the battens.

    Gyplyner will allow you to come out up to 125mm from the existing wall, plenty of room there for insulation and a gap. Or 50-60mm would probably be enough with insulated boards fixed to the gyplyner.

    https://www.gyproc.ie/literature/white-book/gyplyner


  • #8
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Builderfromhell wrote: »
    In my experience of building dry lining is seldom done properly and if you do elect to remove what is there and put in new dry-lining then I would recommend you allow a gap of about 1" between the insulation and plasterboard to accommodate wiring and plumbing.
    I always advise people to externally insulate as this, if done properly, avoids cold bridging.

    Hang on, you are recommending insulating internally and not mentioning airtightness, Id be looking at that as done incorrectly,
    EWI is the only way imo to insulate correctly imo, insulating internally can lead to problems.


  • #9
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    rostalof wrote: »
    Fixing battens straight onto the wall will be fun in an old house. The walls will be very uneven and you'll need to do a lot of packing for the battens.

    Gyplyner will allow you to come out up to 125mm from the existing wall, plenty of room there for insulation and a gap. Or 50-60mm would probably be enough with insulated boards fixed to the gyplyner.

    https://www.gyproc.ie/literature/white-book/gyplyner

    Someone highlighted a metal frame set up for supporting dry lining to me before, but I didnt have any names, I've kept an eye out for products to do that,
    Id put an airtight layer under that, fix it and seal fixings with a proper sealant for airtightness, products from isover and the like, cant think of other brands at the minute, but I mean not with ordinary sealants or gap fillers.
    Id be thinking of fixing something like that, and see if once its level if some kind of counter battening to build up a service space so other fixings dont pierce an airtight layer and leaves sufficent space for wiring.

    I dont see how any other method to fix plasterboard with an airtight layer could work, ie dot and dab, which I think wouldnt be easy to do at the best of times, this stuff should be easy for any competent person to fit, like meccano.

    Id still be insulating externally, even if its done at another later date, it will be more thorough than any form of internal insulation.

    edit, the pdf for that product actually mentions isover, nothing about airtightness though.


  • #10
    rostalof
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭rostalof


    1874 wrote: »
    Someone highlighted a metal frame set up for supporting dry lining to me before, but I didnt have any names, I've kept an eye out for products to do that,
    Id put an airtight layer under that, fix it and seal fixings with a proper sealant for airtightness, products from isover and the like, cant think of other brands at the minute, but I mean not with ordinary sealants or gap fillers.
    Id be thinking of fixing something like that, and see if once its level if some kind of counter battening to build up a service space so other fixings dont pierce an airtight layer and leaves sufficent space for wiring.

    I dont see how any other method to fix plasterboard with an airtight layer could work, ie dot and dab, which I think wouldnt be easy to do at the best of times, this stuff should be easy for any competent person to fit, like meccano.

    Id still be insulating externally, even if its done at another later date, it will be more thorough than any form of internal insulation.

    This stuff is being used for 30 years or more along with metal stud and MF ceilings. There's no need to counter batten anything. You run the services on the block side of the void, then you have insulation, then you have the plasterboard. Every apartment, hotel and office block in Ireland since the 90s employs this type of metal fabricated technology. If it's done right it's the only way to go.


  • #11
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    rostalof wrote: »
    This stuff is being used for 30 years or more along with metal stud and MF ceilings. There's no need to counter batten anything. You run the services on the block side of the void, then you have insulation, then you have the plasterboard. Every apartment, hotel and office block in Ireland since the 90s employs this type of metal fabricated technology. If it's done right it's the only way to go.

    So how does airtightness come into things? every house in Ireland in the 90s, things have moved on, if I was in the OPs shoes carrying out this work, this looks like a good product to do what they need, but they should at this point consider fitting an airtightness layer, its an ideal time to do so and it will be, even unlikely to ever present itself as an option to do again, ever, unless the OP is the kind of person that renovates frequently, even then most people only carry out relatively visible and superficial changes and not to the buildings performance in heat loss.


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  • #12
    rostalof
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭rostalof


    1874 wrote: »
    So how does airtightness come into things? every house in Ireland in the 90s, things have moved on, if I was in the OPs shoes carrying out this work, this looks like a good product to do what they need, but they should at this point consider fitting an airtightness layer, its an ideal time to do so and it will be, even unlikely to ever present itself as an option to do again, ever, unless the OP is the kind of person that renovates frequently, even then most people only carry out relatively visible and superficial changes and not to the buildings performance in heat loss.

    Look at the .pdf, the metal is sealed around the edges with sealant. In most cases the side of the metal that is in contact with the walls, floor and ceiling is bonded to the walls, floor and ceiling with acoustic sealant too. There's absolutely nothing stopping anybody adding an airtightness layer If they want to. When the wall has been skimmed or properly taped and jointed, with that seal around the edge and an airtightness layer, the job is done.

    I didn't say this is used in every house since the 90s. House builders tend to stick to wood for drylining for some reason. This type of technology is generally used in offices, cinemas, factories, apartments and hotels. Look up Gypsum metal products or Knauff. They have metal solutions for a vast amount of drylining and ceiling scenarios. These type of systems may be around for years but are constantly evolving.

    This is the Isover version, Optima, which can be used in conjunction with another of their products for airtightness,

    https://www.isover.ie/solutions/optima-dry-lining-system


  • #13
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,163 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    ezra_ wrote: »
    Early 1900s or thereabouts. Pretty sure it is solid brick throughout.

    Pretty sure wont do, you need to know

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #14
    lowkeys
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭lowkeys


    Fixing a metal frame to a wall with no cavity will cause cold bridging and issues.

    I second the Isover Optima suggestion. It is designed for older buildings with no cavity and includes an air tightness/ vapour control layer.


  • #15
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,163 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    lowkeys wrote: »
    Fixing a metal frame to a wall with no cavity will cause cold bridging and issues.

    I second the Isover Optima suggestion. It is designed for older buildings with no cavity and includes an air tightness/ vapour control layer.

    Did you ever try install it in the real world?
    What about window reveals, doors etc

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #16
    Builderfromhell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭Builderfromhell


    My reply was brief and I should have mentioned an airtightness layer between the service void and the insulation. Again, I feel internal dry lining is a poor solution for a number of reasons including the fact that unless someone competent does the work or the work is overseen by a competent person it is often done wrong.
    My preference is always for EWI as it allows the internal floor area to remain the same, the external walls become a heat store and also regulate humidity, the walls are also kept dry.
    I do recommend a heat recovery air exchange ventilation system to ensure healthy air quality.


  • #17
    lowkeys
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭lowkeys


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Did you ever try install it in the real world?
    What about window reveals, doors etc

    Yes I have seen it installed in a few locations and it works well. Similar theory around windows and doors albeit with thinner insulation.


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