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Lions Tour

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    #1562
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    aloooof wrote: »
    Are you not just doing the exact same thing here yourself?

    Anyways, not to get too bogged down in the arguments, I always enjoy the novelty of the Lions, even if the hype / media gets ridiculous. The culmination of that in the last series was a Warburton interview after the 2nd test. The interviewer, so keen to lean on the hype, tripped over himself to use the phrase "grandchildren to tell time moment".

    yeah i am but at least ive proffered a reasoning. And ive stated its an outlier.

    YEah agreed look i think the actual rugby itself is usually fantastic. i hope a good chunk of the Irish players can be core members of a winning tour.

    And i suppose thats all that matters.


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    #1563
    TomsOnTheRoof
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    sprucemoose wrote: »
    im afraid you are simply incorrect on this. ringrose has the talent to be one of the best centres in the world but he is incredibly injury prone unfortunately and so we havent seen enough of it from him yet. when theyre on form though ringrose and henshaw are our best combination by a mile

    I don't agree. I think he lacks the top end pace necessary to exploit those little half breaks. If he was a more physically direct player this wouldn't be an issue but he isn't. He may be injury prone but I think we've seen plenty enough of him to gauge what he's capable of. Just to be clear, I have nothing against him. I think he's a fine player but I don't buy into a lot of the hype about him being one of the first names on the team sheet.


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    #1564
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Ringrose is unlucky. But he's an example of a guy where people would have laughed if you said he's not going on the Lions in 2021 when he finally became a mainstay of the IRish team. Same with Ryan. I have a weird feeling Ryan will get a call up due to injury.

    Its kind of sad we don't have any back three players in the conversation.


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    #1565
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Indeed. He just can't exploit those little half breaks. I've heard it all now.





    Various.

    All of two minutes.


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    #1566
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »
    I don't agree. I think he lacks the top end pace necessary to exploit those little half breaks. If he was a more physically direct player this wouldn't be an issue but he isn't. He may be injury prone but I think we've seen plenty enough of him to gauge what he's capable of. Just to be clear, I have nothing against him. I think he's a fine player but I don't buy into a lot of the hype about him being one of the first names on the team sheet.

    hummmm



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    #1567
    TomsOnTheRoof
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    hummmm


    To be fair it's a great break but he's hardly ripping it up there. I've seen Stander and Whitelock run them in from that distance.


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    #1568
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »
    To be fair it's a great break but he's hardly ripping it up there.

    he sort of is though.......


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    #1569
    OneLungDavy
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    Ringrose is a strange one. I think we over-hype him in Ireland, not sure he's really rated outside these shores. He's quality but he's missing something to punch him onto the next level, injuries most likely hampering him. Some absolute brain-farts don't help his case either.


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    #1570
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Good support play by Gibson-Park in that try against Clermont. Ringrose's dummy wouldn't have been on if JGP hadn't been there for a pass.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Ringrose going off to play for the 7s in the World Series to round out his game ahead of the World Cup. Stockdale too, maybe.


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    #1571
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »
    To be fair it's a great break but he's hardly ripping it up there. I've seen Stander and Whitelock run them in from that distance.

    strange reply

    poster "i dont think player A is good at doing X"

    reply "heres videos clips of Player A doing X"

    poster "ah that doesn count cos but ive seen others do that"

    lets not forget his first irish caps were on the wing.
    you dont put a slow player on the wing in a test game.


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    #1572
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    you dont put a slow player on the wing in a test game.

    This is gonna open up a Dave Kearney-shaped can of worms, isn't it... ;)


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    #1573
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »
    To be fair it's a great break but he's hardly ripping it up there. I've seen Stander and Whitelock run them in from that distance.

    CJ Stander? From inside his own 10 metre line?


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    #1574
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    lets not forget his first irish caps were on the wing.
    you dont put a slow player on the wing in a test game.

    He played wing for Leinster but never Ireland IIRC.


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    #1575
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    He played wing for Leinster but never Ireland IIRC.

    my bad.. getting his debuts mixed up


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    #1576
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    lets not forget his first irish caps were on the wing. you dont put a slow player on the wing in a test game.

    no, his first leinster caps were from what i remember. he played 13 against canada and 12 against NZ & Aus
    Former Former Former wrote: »
    CJ Stander? From inside his own 10 metre line?
    in one of his early games for munster he scored one from his own 22 from what i remember. mightve been playing 7 too but im not too sure


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    #1577
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    CJ Stander? From inside his own 10 metre line?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botCDr52vKY

    unfortunately for Stander this level of skill was coached out of him by Joe and others.


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    #1578
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botCDr52vKY


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    #1579
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,518 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    I don't dislike the Lions tour I've been fortunate to do two tours (to NZ and SA) to see it. Its fast being priced out of Joe soaps reach though as corporates hoover up tickets.

    There's also aspects of the past that have gone, they now play professional teams in the midweek games instead of amateur teams. Often they try and portray its like the old days but its not really.

    As for having it now in SA, I don't agree with that. The players are going to be kept in such a sanitised bubble and obviously there's going to be no supporters around.

    They should have pulled the plug but commercial realities exist...that shoes what it's all about at the end of the day.

    In saying all the above of course ill still watch it...



    The tour isn’t priced out of anyone’s hands, the official travel is expensive, but you can go it alone an not stay in 4 star hotels if you want. That’s a lot cheaper. Japan cost 5k per person on an official tour that mimicked for under 2.

    As for playing professional teams only it would be stupid and downright negligent putting those athletes up against anything other than fully developed professionals.

    If SA came here and played an AIL team how do you think that would fare out physically for the Irish players?

    People seem to forget the physical difference between the modern day athlete and the historic part timer that played rugby in between bouts of drunkness and smoked fags consistently.


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    #1580
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    starkid wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botCDr52vKY


    Begorrah.
    starkid wrote: »
    unfortunately for Stander this level of skill was coached out of him by Joe and others.

    Sweet jesus you've some list of grudges.


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    #1581
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    Begorrah.



    Sweet jesus you've some list of grudges.

    ha yeah i do. well i wouldn;t say grudges, just particular points of view. uncommon and unpopular.

    but in fairness if he could still do that, like the one against Italy as well he'd be on the Lions tour i'd imagine.

    btw do we reckon Standers on the standby list or is he gone gone..


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    #1582
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    starkid wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botCDr52vKY

    unfortunately for Stander this level of skill was coached out of him by Joe and others.

    Yep, because Irelands lost successful coach was all about de-skilling players.

    Hot takes everywhere I see. Wonderful.


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    #1583
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    If Ringrose played in Super Rugby, he'd probably look a lot better, in that defenses in NH tend to be stingier. He's very good at running back against the grain and doing that half duck through defenders to make the break.

    He's one of the best passing centres playing at the moment, he's far better than Davies is for example. I hope the trend of him being used as a playmaker is continued. I wonder if the recent uptick of him kicking is him looking to expand his value as a player?


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    #1584
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Yep, because Irelands lost successful coach was all about de-skilling players.

    Hot takes everywhere I see. Wonderful.

    well according to Best and now Tuohy its not really a myth. Stander became a much simpler player. Possibly a better one but one that isn't associated with the above. so much so people had it scrubbed from their minds. The same stuff "he's good on hard ground" etc etc when it comes to Lions talk, forgetting CJ was made from those same grounds. Schmidt clearly wanted Stander to be a close in carrier. Its indisputable and on record. I'd even iamgine we'll hear more from CJ about it.

    Will be interesting to see if he's on a list.

    And yeah i also think Ringrose has suffered from the same inate conservatism in Irish rugby. Such a shame.


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    #1585
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,763 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I thought Ringrose would have made it up until about halfway through the 6Ns. He is an integral part of the Irish backline. Did he miss some of the 6Ns? I can't really remember. I know he had the jaw injury earlier in the season.

    It seems to me that Ryan and Ringrose had ill timed injuries. Stockdale has had injuries, but the biggest issue is his confidence after dropping the ball over the line against Leinster a couple of years in the European Q/F.

    All three can come again and are young enough to be part of the 2025 and maybe even 2029 Lions tours if form and fitness allow.

    Larmour I'm less sure about. A great talent, very exciting in open spaces. Has he translated that into test rugby yet? Again he has had injuries. He has time on his side, but I didn't think he was ever part of the Lions conversation.

    Ryan will have been close, so too clearly was Kelleher. Ringrose missed out, but so did Jonathan Davies. The midfield selected isn't exactly inspirational when you think of the last few tours with the likes of BOD, Davies, Greenwood and Roberts etc, maybe Ringrose could have brought something a bit different. It just shows how Gatland sees his centres. Part of me wouldn't be that surprised if Chris Farrell was as close to selection as Ringrose. All moot now he is injured anyway I suppose.


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    #1586
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    "Joe Schmidt was the worst thing to ever happen to Irish rugby."

    A comment once overheard by yours truly in Thomond Park.


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    #1587
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    bilston wrote: »
    I thought Ringrose would have made it up until about halfway through the 6Ns. He is an integral part of the Irish backline. Did he miss some of the 6Ns? I can't really remember. I know he had the jaw injury earlier in the season.

    He started all but the last game in the 6N which he missed due to injury but it was a string of fairly muted performances. Aki and Henshaw performed much better in the England match as a pair, although obviously Aki gets marked down for KOing Billy V.


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    #1588
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Just on Stander.

    In his first season here, he couldn't even break into the Munster first team.

    Within 4 years, he was a Lions test player.

    Whatever coaching he got here, it seems to have worked.


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    #1589
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    Bazzo wrote: »
    He started all but the last game in the 6N which he missed due to injury but it was a string of fairly muted performances.
    id say he was carrying an injury for the 6N, he was fairly muted apart from Italy and didnt notice him getting a knock or anything against scotland

    Bazzo wrote: »
    Aki and Henshaw performed much better in the England match as a pair, although obviously Aki gets marked down for KOing Billy V.
    .......i dont think they did in attack though? defensively they were solid but for all of the positives from the game, there was nothing in attack outside sexton really


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    #1590
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,898 ✭✭✭TRC10


    sprucemoose wrote: »


    .......i dont think they did in attack though? defensively they were solid but for all of the positives from the game, there was nothing in attack outside sexton really

    Nah to be fair Aki was pretty good in attack. Especially in the 1st half and in the lead up to Conan's try, his distribution was very good (underrated part of his game as he was used purely as a crash 12 under Schmidt)

    Think you're also being a bit unfair to Earls (who scored a couple of crackers) and also Stockdale and Keenan who were very good


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    #1591
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    TRC10 wrote: »
    Nah to be fair Aki was pretty good in attack. Especially in the 1st half and in the lead up to Conan's try, his distribution was very good (underrated part of his game as he was used purely as a crash 12 under Schmidt)

    Think you're also being a bit unfair to Earls (who scored a couple of crackers) and also Stockdale and Keenan who were very good

    Completely agree with this, tbh. The OP's sentiment has popped up once or twice recently, but I don't think it's well founded.

    For the Conan try in particular we saw a number of note-worthy non-Sexton related things including:
    - Aki stepping in at scrum-half, and with some good passing in general phase play.
    - Earls stepping in at first receiver twice.
    - A Furlong offload.
    - Every player with the ball in their hands, outside of Henderson and Herring
    - Conan scoring the try on penalty advantage, whereas previously we've been criticised for kicking it away.
    - Patience. We had made little progress after 11 phases but continued with possession. Given how far England were hitting us behind the gainline in previous meetings, this was a clear improvement.


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