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help for parents/child starting in Catholic school

2

Comments

  • #52
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    _Brian wrote: »
    The massive mistake that was made was as part of the settlement with the church the lands of all schools should have been signed over to the state.

    That’s the hold the church retain on schools, mostly the sites are owned by the church and the buildings provided by the state.

    Fantasy.

    Michael Woods in effect wrote a blank cheque on behalf of the taxpayer and gave it to the church. They played him for a complete fool and were never going to do what you suggest.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #53
    tjc28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 294 ✭✭tjc28


    When my son started 2 years ago in a Catholic national school (he's coming to the end of senior infants) we had a chat with the teacher the first week and explained we're both atheists and our son wasn't baptised and it wasn't a problem at all. The teacher said the 1st two years would not be focused on God or Christian teachings but more on Family, Love etc. She gave us the option of him sitting it out and he could draw or read but we decided that the curriculum wasn't going to brainwash him so we left him involved. Now we're coming into first class we'll take up the option of him sitting it out. In his class there's kids of different religions and none so despite it being a Catholic school they understand it's not for everyone.
    In some ways Covid has been good for this as with the difficulties of teaching remotely and more parental teaching etc the teacher never really did religion as it was far more important to focus on the important subjects.
    I'd say speak to the teacher first chance you get. My impression is yes the schools are Catholic but it's not like it was in years ago. The religion aspect is in someways just background. Box ticking if you like.


  • #54
    Deeec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Firsty I would like to start off by saying I respect your views on religion and well done for sticking to your principles. This post I hope offers a view from a parent who is happy for their kids to be raised in the catholic faith.

    My kids attend a catholic primary school - religion in the school is more about giving kids a set of rules to live a good life by. Its about being a kind and good person. This was the same as when I went to school also and also in the secondary convent school I attended ( over 20 years ago). None of the churchs views on sex, same sex relationships, sin etc were taught to us as kids. Yes they say prayers, yes they go to mass on ash wednesday. Parents can though opt their kids out of religious activities.

    In my 6 year olds class there is a little girl whose parents dont want her to participate in religious activities. The school supports this for the childs parents and nobody including school management have a problem with this. However the only one that seems to have the problem is the childs mother - she contacted a parent of each child in the class to ask if their child is getting their first communion ( communion is 2 years away BTW) - she seemed shocked to discover that every other child is going to receive their first holy communion. She seems really bothered by this that her child is the only child thats not participating and goes on about this constantly to the point that other parents now run a mile from her at collection time. The fact is that everyone supports her decision but by behaving the way she does ( about everybody elses beliefs )she is alienating both herself and her child. I cant see why she is shocked by this given that it is a catholic school - she cant expect everyone else to share her beliefs. Now this parent also doesnt celebrate christmas and easter - santa claus doesnt even visit their house ( again she has issues with the schools christmas celebrations but thats another story). Again everyone respects her beliefs on this.

    I suppose what I am saying is are you prepared that you will be in the minority in a catholic school. Perhaps you may be better at this stage looking for a different school if your beliefs are very stong. Also I would suggest meeting with the school principle to discuss the issues - you could be pleasantly surprised how accomodating they will be of your views. Remember that education will be the schools main focus not religion. I hope all works out for you.


  • #55
    appledrop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Deeec you have obviously not read the new Flourish programme because that clearly outlines the Catholic Churches views on same sex marriage and relationships etc.

    Every single lesson ends with a little prayer and an Amen. Most of the time you also thank God for making you etc.

    And no this is not the religioos education lesson in school which I might be able to understand but the actual Relationship and Sex Education lessons that will be thought in primary schools.

    I suggest you inform yourself of the actually curriculum that is being taught in Catholic primary schools.


  • #56
    Deeec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭Deeec


    appledrop wrote: »
    Deeec you have obviously not read the new Flourish programme because that clearly outlines the Catholic Churches views on same sex marriage and relationships etc.

    Every single lesson ends with a little prayer and an Amen. Most of the time you also thank God for making you etc.

    And no this is not the religioos education lesson in school which I might be able to understand but the actual Relationship and Sex Education lessons that will be thought in primary schools.

    I suggest you inform yourself of the actually curriculum that is being taught in Catholic primary schools.

    Apple drop I have 2 children currently attending primary school. They have not been thought anything bad or negative about sex or same sex relationships. I myself was never taught anything negative either. It may be in the programme but is it actually taught in practice?


  • #57
    appledrop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Deeec wrote: »
    Apple drop I have 2 children currently attending primary school. They have not been thought anything bad or negative about sex or same sex relationships. I myself was never taught anything negative either. It may be in the programme but is it actually taught in practice?

    It was just released in April of this year.i suggest you check with your school if they plan to implement this new programme.


  • #58
    appledrop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭appledrop


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/new-catholic-primary-school-sex-education-programme-published-1.4547221

    I suggest you read the above article to inform yourself.


  • #59
    Deeec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭Deeec


    appledrop wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/new-catholic-primary-school-sex-education-programme-published-1.4547221

    I suggest you read the above article to inform yourself.

    Appledrop as regards religion I find teachers are very loose on what is meant to be taught. It may be written in the programme - I expect alot of teachers wont actually teach it though.


  • #60
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Deeec wrote: »
    Apple drop I have 2 children currently attending primary school. They have not been thought anything bad or negative about sex or same sex relationships. I myself was never taught anything negative either. It may be in the programme but is it actually taught in practice?

    It was in my daughters school and as someone who happens to be LGBT herself it caused her a lot of unnecessary hurt. I’m still angry about it tbh. We were able to help her with that, imagine you have parents who share those views.


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  • #61
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    _Brian wrote: »
    No matter what, all the kids classmates will be working towards and engaging in the sacraments, this will significantly set OPs kid apart from the others. There’s no avoiding that. Amd for a small kid that wil make them feel different and in a significant minority.

    I’m not saying that is right or wrong, just as a parent I can’t see how OP will do this without the kid being isolated at times during school.

    So the answer is just to have them go along with Catholic education? It's not a good enough reason really.


    There was a girl in my class in the mid 80s who was raised as atheist (quite radical looking back), and she wasn't excluded by the kids in the class. We understood that she had 'no religion'. Kids don't make a big deal of stuff like that, their parents and teachers do. My school used to do communion photos so there was a day maybe a week after the communion that we wore our dresses to school and got a class photo and individual photo and she was told she could put on a nice dress of her own, get her photo taken and she is in the class photo. Obvioulsy she could have opted out of that. None of the kids in the class excluded her. We understood that she didn't go to mass etc.


  • #62
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,773 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I think that religion is something for home and families, not schools. It should not be taught in school and certainly not as part of the national curriculum.

    However at the moment we are still stuck with the situation where religion - specifically Catholicism - pervades all aspects of the school day and while it is entirely appropriate for parents to make it known to schools that they do not want this for their children, pragmatically they have to put up with much of it.

    However what you do at home, in the end, has considerable effect on children, and parents still have the last word.

    My three children (now aged 50 to 34) attended Catholic schools throughout, they did all the Communions and Confirmations, 'alter boy' and other stuff. Their father was very much a practising Catholic and took them to mass every Sunday without fail until they were in their mid teens. I had undertaken to go along with this and did so, though occasionally I might have to go and sort out a nun telling a 6 year old about 'devils under the ground' and another teacher who told them that mixed religion marriages would not last and the non-Catholic would leave the family. Mostly though I listened to Catechisms and prepared them for whatever was happening. As they got older I was willing to discuss alternative ideas to religion but I never denigrated it.

    At some stage in their teens all of them chose to move away from the church and religion. They did it quietly not to upset their father, but by adulthood non of them had any interest in or interaction with the church at all.

    My son's children did their first communion, just to be part of the class, (I was not enthusiastic about this, but it was not my business). Now the eldest is Confirmation age she has entirely of her own volition chosen not to be confirmed. She will go to the church with her class because she wants to be with her friends, but she will not take part.

    So while I agree that protesting religious instruction is understandable if you do not believe, and desirable from a point of view of making your opinions known, your own, even unspoken, opinions and ideas will have more influence than you might expect. I have come to the opinion that using a child as a kind of religion football is not the way to deal with the issue of religion in schools, if they have to go to a religious school go with the flow to some extent rather than making an exception of them. Don't panic about it, and do what is best for your child. But make your feelings known to school and government and anyone who wants to listen.


  • #63
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    _Brian wrote: »
    I’m so glad your pedestal allows you to look down and pass judgment [...]
    _Brian, please have a quick read of the charter, paying special attention to rule (1) "Attack the post not the poster."


  • #64
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    tjc28 wrote: »
    My impression is yes the schools are Catholic but it's not like it was in years ago. The religion aspect is in someways just background. Box ticking if you like.

    Some schools are as you describe but some are the other extreme. It all depends on the principal, really.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #65
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Some schools are as you describe but some are the other extreme. It all depends on the principal, really.

    Feedback from parents I know lead me to conclude catholic schools are doubling down on indoctrination in many cases. We had a fairly low key catholic programme in my old school when I was a kid but there are now more regular mass visits, sacred spaces, saints days marked and the use of the Grow In Love programme which is way more full on than the books we used.


  • #66
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    lazygal wrote: »
    Feedback from parents I know lead me to conclude catholic schools are doubling down on indoctrination in many cases.

    I can see this alienating kids and parents a lot more and leading to big increases in opting out.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • #67
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I can see this alienating kids and parents a lot more and leading to big increases in opting out.
    Parents may opt out but the integrated curriculum (religious themes for art and music, religious references for spellings and in maths, history and geography and so on) is designed to make it impossible to opt out.
    There's also the issue that textbooks all seem to assume a religious slant to all schools. My children are in an ET school, yet references to saints are in the 'history' section of their textbooks. As my daughter told her teacher, learning about a saint who may or may not have existed is not history, it is mythology.


  • #68
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    lazygal wrote: »
    We're looking at secondary schools and the so called community school has a religious symbol on the mandatory uniform and has RE as a compulsory subject. We'll probably end up choosing fee paying school without any religous ****e.

    That would describe the secondary school o went to, but it wasn't too bad. Religion only got something like 2 periods a week, and no religion outside of that.


  • #69
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's much more compartmentalised in secondary, which makes it easier to opt out of, but even ETB schools still don't offer an alternative subject to religion, and they're fully state owned! :rolleyes:

    Scrap the cap!



  • #70
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Those schools make RE compulsory because religion teachers complained about losing hours of teaching if the subject was optional.
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tui-to-shun-religious-education-opt-out-1.3450404%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjkho3I0q7xAhVKTsAKHb9vCcUQFjAAegQIBhAC&usg=AOvVaw30HWcvZ7VR5m6Q6FV5w20k&ampcf=1


  • #71
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    lazygal wrote: »
    Those schools make RE compulsory because religion teachers complained about losing hours of teaching if the subject was optional.
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tui-to-shun-religious-education-opt-out-1.3450404%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjkho3I0q7xAhVKTsAKHb9vCcUQFjAAegQIBhAC&usg=AOvVaw30HWcvZ7VR5m6Q6FV5w20k&ampcf=1
    Other way around, as I read it - the union is concerned that they will be given extra teaching duties, with no additional compensation, if alternatives are to be offered to students who opt out of religion.

    It's not the teachers of religion that would be affected here since, unless everyone opted out of religion the religion class would still be provided. It's the teachers of other subjects who fear that they would be required to teach the alternatives-to-religion classes, or that the resources provided to their courses would be depleted by the need to resource the alternative-to-religion classes.


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  • #72
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,617 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I was at my kids graduation from NS yesterday and this thread popped into my head.

    Graduation was in the chapel, the whole sentiment was religious in nature with plenty of prayer. Each child had a part to play, bringing up offerings or reading.

    Where would OP’s kid fit into this ??

    My thinking is still if you send your kid to a Catholic school then there is no way to avoid the trappings that go along with that, or your kid will be terribly set apart from the other kids, it might ease things if there were a number of kids in the same boat, but that may not be the case and they may be the only one on the class.


  • #73
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    _Brian wrote: »
    I was at my kids graduation from NS yesterday and this thread popped into my head.

    Graduation was in the chapel, the whole sentiment was religious in nature with plenty of prayer. Each child had a part to play, bringing up offerings or reading.

    Where would OP’s kid fit into this ??

    My thinking is still if you send your kid to a Catholic school then there is no way to avoid the trappings that go along with that, or your kid will be terribly set apart from the other kids, it might ease things if there were a number of kids in the same boat, but that may not be the case and they may be the only one on the class.

    And what should the OP, and those like them do, in face of the fact that over 90% of State funded National Schools are "Catholic"*?

    Where do you suggest all the not-Catholic children go when the only option is Catholic controlled?


    *inverted commas as the RRC do not fund the majority of them in any way, shape, or form. They are "Catholic" in terms of the RCC being the patrons and therefore a great deal of power over what is taught.


  • #74
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    _Brian wrote: »
    I was at my kids graduation from NS yesterday and this thread popped into my head.

    Graduation was in the chapel, the whole sentiment was religious in nature with plenty of prayer. Each child had a part to play, bringing up offerings or reading.

    Where would OP’s kid fit into this ??.

    If a child does their 6 years in NS then they fit in as a valued member of the school community. It’s up to the school to make an effort to have a fully inclusive ceremony that celebrates everyone. What would be the alternative? The child is excluded for being the wrong faith?


  • #75
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    _Brian wrote: »
    I was at my kids graduation from NS yesterday and this thread popped into my head.

    Graduation was in the chapel, the whole sentiment was religious in nature with plenty of prayer. Each child had a part to play, bringing up offerings or reading.

    Where would OP’s kid fit into this ??

    My thinking is still if you send your kid to a Catholic school then there is no way to avoid the trappings that go along with that, or your kid will be terribly set apart from the other kids, it might ease things if there were a number of kids in the same boat, but that may not be the case and they may be the only one on the class.

    Given the rapid decline in religious observance, and lack of multi-denominational alternatives for most parents, I'd imagine being the only non-religious child in a class of ~30 for a child just starting school at this point in time would be unlikely. Could well be the case in rural areas where class numbers are smaller and religiosity greater but not in Dublin. About 10% of the population are 'convinced atheists' according to Wikipedia
    According to a 2012 WIN-Gallup International poll, Ireland had the 2nd highest decline in religiosity from 69% in 2005 to 47% in 2012, while those who considered themselves not a religious person increased from 25% in 2005 to 44% in 2012. The poll also showed that 10% of Ireland now consider themselves convinced atheists, which is a vast increase from 2005. This number is thought to be higher due to citizens describing themselves as "cultural Catholics".

    According to the 2016 Irish Census, approximately 9.5% of Irish citizens are irreligious.

    Given the steep rate of decline, I'd guess that percentage is significantly higher today five years later. I don't think families rejecting a religious doctrine for their children in Catholic schools can be considered an isolated minority at this stage, though it does seem to be used as a tactic by those struggling to maintain a collapsing and obsolete status quo.


  • #76
    Hoboo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    Where do you suggest all the not-Catholic children go when the only option is Catholic controlled?

    .

    Travel to the nearest non Catholic school? Live closer to a non Catholic school? Start a new school?.

    What's your suggestion?


  • #77
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Travel to the nearest non Catholic school? Live closer to a non Catholic school? Start a new school?.

    What's your suggestion?

    Or we could have a school everyone can go to? Without duplication of resources because of historical and State reasons?


  • #78
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Travel to the nearest non Catholic school? Live closer to a non Catholic school? Start a new school?.

    What's your suggestion?

    Why don’t we leave schools for education and anyone wanting to raise their kids Catholic teach them through mass. Use that extra school time to teach them something of value that will benefit them.


  • #79
    Hoboo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Who owns the Catholic schools?


  • #80
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Who owns the Catholic schools?

    Who pays for them? Who pays for all of our children's education?


  • #81
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Travel to the nearest non Catholic school? Live closer to a non Catholic school? Start a new school?.

    What's your suggestion?

    Why should people have to move?
    Why should people have to jump through hoops to get their child an education?
    Why should people have to increase their daily commute?

    What fecking non-Catholic schools?

    Theses so called "Catholic" schools are actually the State funded National Schools - a system inherited from the Victorians - that were handed over by the Irish Free State to the RCC.
    They are fully funded out of tax - taxes also paid by non-Catholics.
    Why should non-Catholics subsidise Catholics?
    Can't Catholics fund their own Catholics only schools?


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  • #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Are all these children going to Catholic schools baptised?


  • #83
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Who owns the Catholic schools?
    I believe the majority are owned by trusts set up by the RCC on foot of bequests from wealthy individuals or local collections organized or supervised by the RCC.

    I'm not aware of any schools in Ireland which the RCC paid for from its own central funds, though I'm sure there must be a few.


  • #84
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    I believe the majority are owned by trusts set up by the RCC on foot of bequests from wealthy individuals or local collections organized or supervised by the RCC.

    I'm not aware of any schools in Ireland which the RCC paid for from its own central funds, though I'm sure there must be a few.
    The RCC in Ireland doesn't have much in the way of central funds. In many ways it's quite a decentralised organisation; most of the funds and most of the properties are held either by individual dioceses or by individual religious orders, or by trusts set up by a diocese or religious order.

    As regards national schools, ownership of the land and buildings is usually separate from control of the operation of the school. And, so long as the school is in operation, ownership of the land and buildings is not an especially valuable right. The owner is under a legal obligation to make the land and buildings available for the operation of the school, and doesn't receive any rent or other income. Ownership really only becomes significant if the school is closed and the Dept of Education no longer requires the premises.


  • #85
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Are all these children going to Catholic schools baptised?

    No.


  • #86
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The RCC in Ireland doesn't have much in the way of central funds. In many ways it's quite a decentralised organisation; most of the funds and most of the properties are held either by individual dioceses or by individual religious orders, or by trusts set up by a diocese or religious order.
    Yes, indeed - one could be mistaken for thinking that it was set up specifically to avoid central responsibility - despite what appears to be a general belief amongst believers that the organization is highly centralized.


  • #87
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, indeed - one could be mistaken for thinking that it was set up specifically to avoid central responsibility - despite what appears to be a general belief amongst believers that the organization is highly centralized.
    It's a belief that seems to be just as general among critics of the church. We see regular suggestions on this board that contributions to the redress scheme unpaid by religious orders should be recovered by taking schools from dioceses or other properties from different religious orders. And it used to be common enough here to refer to the church as "CCL" ("Catholic Church Limited") to emphasis how very like a limited company the Catholic Church was supposed to be.


  • #88
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,617 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Who owns the Catholic schools?

    It’s a mishmash.
    The site is owned by the Catholic Church as we’re the original schools, modernisation has been done by state funding.

    Truthfully as with the current hospital debacle I’d support a CPO program to 100% bring these into state ownership. Let religious teaching be a matter for church and home.


  • #89
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    _Brian wrote: »
    Truthfully as with the current hospital debacle I’d support a CPO program to 100% bring these into state ownership. Let religious teaching be a matter for church and home.

    Problem there is with cultural Catholicism. Many people identify as Catholic and want the whole Christening/Confirmation/Church wedding/Church funeral thing but really could not be actually arsed with going next, nigh or near to a church beyond that. Better things to be doing with a Sunday morning than listening to some aged priest in a draughty church wittering on for hours on end. Taking religion out of schools would mean the parents would have to waste their precious free time taking the young 'uns to a church themselves. A church for God's sake! As if. I mean seriously, no one needs that nonsense. Hence no divesting the schools and stuff the atheists, Muslims and various other weirdos and hippies looking to upset the apple cart. Not going to happen. Apols, but no.

    In truth, majority Catholicism in this country is horse on its last legs, flogged so hard it is not even fit for the salami factory at this point. I do believe there is an honest cohort of faithful practising Catholics out there and will be for generations to come, but reckon they're very much in the minority (20%-30% max, pure guess). My feeling is that religion classes should be moved to the end of the school day so as not to discombobulate the actual and cultural Catholics and let the rest of the kids just go home. Of course the church will fight it tooth and nail, but they depend on followers that don't actually follow to prop up their faltering power base.


  • #90
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    There are some catholic families in our ET school who chose not to send their children to the local catholic school because they don't feel they would get appropriate catholic doctrine taught. So they instead send their children to catholic doctrine classes once a week and go to mass every single week. I have gotten to know some of them and they would rather the whole system be secular and then they would not have to make these sorts of decisions and be lumped in with the bouncy castle Catholics. I can see their point TBH. There are also children of minority faiths who do their faith formation after school and again would prefer a secular system than having to work out just how 'catholic' a school is before they chance sending their kids there.


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  • #91
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    We see regular suggestions on this board that contributions to the redress scheme unpaid by religious orders should be recovered by taking schools from dioceses or other properties from different religious orders.
    I'm sure one or two posters might have made that claim, but I don't recall it being one of the "regular suggestions".

    Most, and quite possibly, all of the religious orders which are party to the redress scheme had more than enough assets to pay their fair share of the compensation bill - up until they settled their assets into various trusts anyway - and likely wouldn't have needed to put the squeeze onto their more law-abiding, or perhaps unrumbled, co-religionists elsewhere.


  • #92
    The One Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,339 ✭✭✭The One Doctor


    Gatica wrote: »
    Can this be done in a sensitive way without stigmatising the child for being "different"?

    My wife and I are atheists, my daughter goes to a Catholic school. RE is neither shoved down their throats nor are they 'indoctrinated'. They are simply taught about Jesus, God, love, family and friendship. Let the child believe what they want and discuss your views when the child is older.

    Most children believe in God, why wouldn't they? They believe in Santa up to 9/10 and you wouldn't try to convince them out of that, would you?

    My six year old daughter said her prayers in bed tonight. No way was I going to start pontificating about logic and the impossibility of God. That is being a atheist dickhead.

    Bottom line: Respect your child's beliefs, they'll change to atheist around 13-15 anyway.


  • #93
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Travel to the nearest non Catholic school? Live closer to a non Catholic school? Start a new school?.

    What's your suggestion?

    Oh right, move house, maybe emigrate? :rolleyes: how about not have kids in the first place, maybe? so our health and education systems can stay rooted in the 19th century... ffs

    Or just pretend to be catholic, it's what maybe 60-70% of parents are doing at the moment?

    Scrap the cap!



  • #94
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The One Doctor wrote: »
    My wife and I are atheists, my daughter goes to a Catholic school. RE is neither shoved down their throats nor are they 'indoctrinated'. They are simply taught about Jesus, God, love, family and friendship. Let the child believe what they want and discuss your views when the child is older.

    Most children believe in God, why wouldn't they? They believe in Santa up to 9/10 and you wouldn't try to convince them out of that, would you?

    My six year old daughter said her prayers in bed tonight. No way was I going to start pontificating about logic and the impossibility of God. That is being a atheist dickhead.

    Bottom line: Respect your child's beliefs, they'll change to atheist around 13-15 anyway.

    Are you raising your child as a Catholic?


  • #95
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The One Doctor wrote: »
    RE is neither shoved down their throats nor are they 'indoctrinated'. They are simply taught about Jesus, God

    They are taught that a specific religion is fact. That is the very definition of indoctrination.

    Let the child believe what they want

    :pac: maybe the schools could try that approach, eh!

    My six year old daughter said her prayers in bed tonight. No way was I going to start pontificating about logic and the impossibility of God. That is being a atheist dickhead.

    Bottom line: Respect your child's beliefs, they'll change to atheist around 13-15 anyway.

    Well I think that teachers or priests getting six-year-olds to say prayers in school is being a religious dickhead, especially when the parents of those kids don't share that belief. Also, it's kind of important that parents let children know what their values are and don't just outsource that to whoever happens to be running the local school - whether parents are religious or not.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #96
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Is it not very confusing for a child to have no idea what their parents' values are? And then to have to absorb the values of a religious school instead?


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  • #97
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I can’t imagine hiding my views from my child and letting the school take ownership of that aspect of their life. Seems odd to say the least. I wonder what happens when the child becomes aware they aren’t going to mass like they are supposed to and how they manage that.


  • #98
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    gandalfio wrote: »
    Sounds like a difficult situation OP and one I could find myself in with my son in the near future.

    Are Educate Together Primary and Secondary schools the only non religious options, or are there other types of non religious schools?

    Many Gaelscoileanna are also multi-denom.


  • #99
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Many Gaelscoileanna are also multi-denom.

    Around my way they say they are, but are really catholic

    Scrap the cap!



  • #100
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,922 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I'm Christian, not RC. My kids are in an RC school and don't do RE.
    5% of the kids are from families like mine and also don't do RE and are across all the years.
    Then there are the protestants, hindu and Muslim kids who don't do it.

    It's not an issue for the school catering for whats probably 10% of the kids enrolled.
    Mine did RE up to senior infants. It's basic enough stuff. Any further is preparation for communion and confirmation so we opted out. The kids read, colour or do school work


  • #101
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    The One Doctor wrote: »
    Let the child believe what they want and discuss your views when the child is older.

    No thanks. Children are not the delicate little flowers you are pretending. We can very much challenge their beliefs, and why they hold them, on any subject, at any age. And it is more difficult to do so at older ages if poor or false beliefs have been given time to set at a younger age. You're basically recommending above what people engaged in Religious Indoctrination WANT you to recommend. The very reason they like to go after children at that age is that faith formation is easier to instill, and harder to remove later in life.
    The One Doctor wrote: »
    Most children believe in God, why wouldn't they? They believe in Santa up to 9/10 and you wouldn't try to convince them out of that, would you?

    My children appear to believe in neither, nor have I given them any reason to believe in such things.

    Never bothered with the whole Santa thing in our house. Never saw any reason to do that either. No benefits from it whatsoever that I could find. And plenty of downsides including being required to consistently lie to my children in a concerted and contrived fashion that I felt in no way comfortable with.

    It was not a decision I took on a whim. I thought long and hard about the whole Santa issue. And I simply could find not one single compelling reason to even consider engaging with the concept with my actual children.
    The One Doctor wrote: »
    My six year old daughter said her prayers in bed tonight. No way was I going to start pontificating about logic and the impossibility of God. That is being a atheist dickhead.

    Insults get you nowhere. There would be nothing in particular wrong with doing so. That you CHOOSE not to do so is fine. That is your choice. But that choice does not give you a platform to insult those that make the opposite choice.
    The One Doctor wrote: »
    Bottom line: Respect your child's beliefs, they'll change to atheist around 13-15 anyway.

    See no reason at all to take that advice. Discussing, augmenting, and even correcting things my children learn at school is something I see as part of my own parental role. Not just on subjects of religion, but across the board on everything they learn. I see school as PART of their education, not the entirety of it. And I happily discuss with them weekly what they were taught that week, and correct or modify or add to things that I find worthy of attention.

    The main example of this is when they learn a list of something by rote. The schools rarely teach them about that category. They just make them learn a list of things IN that category. So children can list you a list of planets or fruits or vegetables. But ask them what a planet or a fruit or a vegetable actually IS and they can not do it. So I teach them that myself. And I show them how some of the things they learned in one list ACTUALLY belongs in another list (Pluto, tomatoes and bananas being often miscategorised for example).

    I do not see anything in Religion class..... or things from religion that have been incorporated into any other part of the curriculum (The Integrated Curriculum issue we have talked about on the forum before)..... as being exempt from this procedure. For any reason. Least of all because some randomer on an internet forum might want to call me a dickhead. I see my role as a parent as being an important part of their education and belief formation. The "hands off" approach you recommend is simply not one that holds any interest for me.


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