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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

1808183858693

Comments

  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Thanks for that YF. It makes interesting reading. There were others similar during the week. As the Queen might say “Recollections may vary”.

    I will admit that I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet when people insist that the church and/or government are to blame while absolving the families and babies fathers of all responsibility.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Thanks for that YF. It makes interesting reading. There were others similar during the week. As the Queen might say “Recollections may vary”.

    I will admit that I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet when people insist that the church and/or government are to blame while absolving the families and babies fathers of all responsibility.

    Reading the report would leave one with a sour taste in their mouth about many of these men to honest. Grim reading. It is important to remember that for nearly all most of the studied period, most unmarried mothers did go into these homes. The data indicates they had their babies outside them with a proportion using abortion in the later period.

    Unfortunately a mod removed the article I posted in the other post so I am reposting here. It is interesting and not everyone will be away they were sworn witnesses but that not every woman might not want to be a sworn witness.
    Donal O’Donnell, the incoming chief justice, has warned against the increasingly strident attacks being made on his fellow judges, who make an easy target for critics because they “cannot and do not answer back”.

    <snip>
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-quinn-blame-evidence-not-authors-for-mother-and-baby-homes-report-failure-9wbsmfh3b


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Might be worth mentioning that article was written by one David Quinn.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Might be worth mentioning that article was written by one David Quinn.

    The I Own Her spokesdroid?

    Dismiss anything that propagandist says.


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Might be worth mentioning that article was written by one David Quinn.

    The beauty of Boards is that differing opinions can be aired. Sometimes met with scorn, but healthy debate is good.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    The beauty of Boards is that differing opinions can be aired. Sometimes met with scorn, but healthy debate is good.
    This is true. What's also good is referencing your source material when presenting other people's opinions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    There is a interesting editorial in the Times as well. I will post just a portion due to copyright.
    The Sunday Times view on mother and baby homes: Don’t berate commission for doing as asked


    ‘Outrage at mum and baby probe” read the headline on one report about the mother and baby homes commission, describing the “fury” and “dismay” of representative groups. The words did not appear after the commission’s final report in January, however, or even during the demands last week for that report to be “repudiated” by the government. ..CUT..
    <snip>

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-sunday-times-view-mother-and-baby-homes-commission-sl5xnbwv7


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Might be worth mentioning that article was written by one David Quinn.

    :D

    Thanks for the warning. I won't bother reading his nonsense.

    Pathetic little man.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    :D

    Thanks for the warning. I won't bother reading his nonsense.

    Pathetic little man.

    Personally I'd read anything handed to me. I even read some of the thesis of the genocidal manic, Xi Jinping, the world's most powerful person. Discounting something because of who wrote it is a problem. The second article I posted is the Times Editorial, not Quinn.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Personally I'd read anything handed to me. I even read some of the thesis of the genocidal manic, Xi Jinping, the world's most powerful person. Discounting something because of who wrote it is a problem. The second article I posted is the Times Editorial, not Quinn.

    Oh right. You see I know that Iona are liars. They have proved that time and again. So no I wont read their nonsense.

    Some here are trying to suggest that the brave Mother and Baby survivors who provided testimony cannot be trusted to tell the truth. I find that distasteful but not unsurprising. Abuse heaped upon abuse.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Oh right. You see I know that Iona are liars. They have proved that time and again. So no I wont read their nonsense.

    Some here are trying to suggest that the brave Mother and Baby survivors who provided testimony cannot be trusted to tell the truth. I find that distasteful but not unsurprising. Abuse heaped upon abuse.

    How would you feel about Judge Harding Clark's report which found at least one third of those who reported that they had undergone a symphysiotomy did not have one performed on them at all. Is she calling these women liars or is it that memory can deceive? Id recommend this podcast on how memories can mislead
    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/free-brian-williams/id1119389968?i=1000413184954


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.thejournal.ie/terri-harrison-mother-and-baby-homes-5469770-Jun2021/?utm_source=shortlink
    'The Irish Handmaid's Tale': Mother and Baby Home survivor says reality was worse than fiction.

    <snip>

    I wonder which parts Terri is making up. Recollection issues around the abduction perhaps?

    No illegal adoptions right?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,523 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Please note when referencing copyrighted articles Site rules permit one paragraph. A link to the source must also be posted

    Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 991 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    Where is the best place to go to read the full story summary of the mother and baby homes ?


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Where is the best place to go to read the full story summary of the mother and baby homes ?

    Try this. https://assets.gov.ie/118671/0df04013-bfc5-4241-b01e-773504253793.pdf


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    :D

    Thanks for the warning. I won't bother reading his nonsense.

    Pathetic little man.

    So, what you’re saying is that your viewpoint is as blindedly one sided as his.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    So, what you’re saying is that your viewpoint is as blindedly one sided as his.

    Huh? You do know who David Quinn is? So you support those fanatics in Iona now?

    My opinion simply reflects those of many other people fighting for the rights of mother and baby home survivors. You will notice I often quite their insights. They are truly amazing, balanced and well educated people like Maeve O'Rourke, Catherine Connolly, Claire McGettrick, Catherine Corless etc.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Where is the best place to go to read the full story summary of the mother and baby homes ?

    I think this is a good place to start.

    http://clannproject.org/

    I know True Vision Productions are currently producing a new detailed documentary on the whole mother and baby home scandal. I am not exactly sure when it will be aired but it will be comprehensive.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Huh? You do know who David Quinn is? So you support those fanatics in Iona now?

    My opinion simply reflects those of many other people fighting for the rights of mother and baby home survivors. You will notice I often quite their insights. They are truly amazing, balanced and well educated people like Maeve O'Rourke, Catherine Connolly, Claire McGettrick, Catherine Corless etc.

    Whether one supports the Iona Institute or not, their opinion is as valid as any of the ladies you mention.

    David Quinn’s “fanaticism” is somewhat akin to your own. Doesn’t make either viewpoint irrelevant.

    Some wrongs occurred within the homes. Ignoring the events that led to the mothers being in the homes, is equally wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    How would you feel about Judge Harding Clark's report which found at least one third of those who reported that they had undergone a symphysiotomy did not have one performed on them at all. Is she calling these women liars or is it that memory can deceive? Id recommend this podcast on how memories can mislead
    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/free-brian-williams/id1119389968?i=1000413184954

    Actually, the Examiner did an excellent job going through the Harding Clarke report; as they say, it raises more questions than it answers. Judge Clarke awarded 34 million Euros in damages, so she obviously knows Symphysiotomies were a problem for Ireland. Further, one great question that the Examiner asks but that Judge Clark did not, is why some Doctors in Ireland performed a disproportionate number of these surgeries, i.e., your probability of suffering one of these surgeries depended on your physician. Scary, eh?
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-20432728.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Whether one supports the Iona Institute or not, their opinion is as valid as any of the ladies you mention.

    David Quinn’s “fanaticism” is somewhat akin to your own. Doesn’t make either viewpoint irrelevant.

    Some wrongs occurred within the homes. Ignoring the events that led to the mothers being in the homes, is equally wrong.

    I won't give the creeps in Iona any more oxygen thanks.

    Who is ignoring events prior to entry into the homes? Seriously you are making no sense. Why don't you create a thread for events that happened outside the mother and baby homes?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Whether one supports the Iona Institute or not, their opinion is as valid as any of the ladies you mention.

    David Quinn’s “fanaticism” is somewhat akin to your own. Doesn’t make either viewpoint irrelevant.

    Some wrongs occurred within the homes. Ignoring the events that led to the mothers being in the homes, is equally wrong.
    Except the opinion of Dave/Iona who are nothing more than church apologists are not as valid as historians and human rights lawyers.

    Wrongs? That's a funny way of describing the abuses/atrocities that occurred.

    To acknowledge the events that led to the mothers being in the homes, you need to accept the influence that the RCC had on Irish society at the time, which you refuse to do.

    Now that you have had a few days to think about it, have you decided what you are holding the families equally responsible for?


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Except the opinion of Dave/Iona who are nothing more than church apologists are not as valid as historians and human rights lawyers.

    Wrongs? That's a funny way of describing the abuses/atrocities that occurred.

    To acknowledge the events that led to the mothers being in the homes, you need to accept the influence that the RCC had on Irish society at the time, which you refuse to do.

    Now that you have had a few days to think about it, have you decided what you are holding the families equally responsible for?

    I have given the answer to your question before, so, to recap:

    Rape.
    Incest.
    Abdication of responsibility, as in leaving ones lover in the lurch when they fall pregnant while believing that they are in a loving relationship.
    Abandonment of children when they most need help.
    Not educating children in the facts of life.
    Letting the opinions of others overrule parental responsibility.

    Though families are not equally responsible for the above crimes. As they happened before entry to the homes, the homes cannot be held responsible.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I have given the answer to your question before, so, to recap:

    Rape.
    Incest.
    Abdication of responsibility, as in leaving ones lover in the lurch when they fall pregnant while believing that they are in a loving relationship.
    Abandonment of children when they most need help.
    Not educating children in the facts of life.
    Letting the opinions of others overrule parental responsibility.

    Though families are not equally responsible for the above crimes. As they happened before entry to the homes, the homes cannot be held responsible.

    And who is holding the nuns and homes responsible for crimes that happened before entry?

    Curious, did you read Terri Harrison's story I posted earlier? If so, who was responsible?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Actually, the Examiner did an excellent job going through the Harding Clarke report; as they say, it raises more questions than it answers. Judge Clarke awarded 34 million Euros in damages, so she obviously knows Symphysiotomies were a problem for Ireland. Further, one great question that the Examiner asks but that Judge Clark did not, is why some Doctors in Ireland performed a disproportionate number of these surgeries, i.e., your probability of suffering one of these surgeries depended on your physician. Scary, eh?
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-20432728.html

    Some Irish doctors made a deliberate choice to use them more in some hospitals than average internationally because they are safer than alternatives. Harding said she awarded money to many women who might not have had them but it could not be prove it either way. She also said that the women who did have them and had tough health later would have quite likely had the same health problems anyway. If you had a difficult labour anywhere in the world in 1950s, yes incontinence is a major risk. Still is today big shock right. Dr Peter Boylan made a passionate defence of symphysiotomies https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1123/833859-health-symphysiotomy-compensation/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    You might quote the part where he made a passionate defence of the procedure? There's a line that might be interpreted as defending the doctors involved but apart from that I don't see it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Some Irish doctors made a deliberate choice to use them more in some hospitals than average internationally because they are safer than alternatives./QUOTE]

    Then, why were they banned if they are 'safer than the alternatives?' Have you got proof of that statement? I'll grant you given the poor quality of education in Ireland then perhaps that was the belief, but I wonder even at that, exactly what was the medical guidance?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Some Irish doctors made a deliberate choice to use them more in some hospitals than average internationally because they are safer than alternatives./QUOTE]

    Then, why were they banned if they are 'safer than the alternatives?' Have you got proof of that statement? I'll grant you given the poor quality of education in Ireland then perhaps that was the belief, but I wonder even at that, exactly what was the medical guidance?

    Symphysiotomies are not banned. They are still occasionally used like if you had a difficult labour without any hospital. It was at its peak here in the early 1950s when medics knew it was far safer than C sections. Elsewhere in Europe obs/gyns preferred C sections even though it was dangerous. But as it declining here it began to be used more in developing countries. It was always very rare here as Boylan points out on that interview which is well worth listening too, these women had immensely hard deliveries and the there was always going to be side effects but at least they didn't die. The period which symphysiotomies occurred most is same time that maternity mortality collapsed, from 54 in 1920 to 40 in 1940 to just 5 in 1960. So before we condemn the doctors of this era, lets not forget how many more lives they saved than their predecessors.

    As for guidelines
    Guidelines and Protocols for Symphysiotomy in Ireland:
    There were no guidelines or protocols for symphysiotomy in mid-twentieth century
    Ireland. This was not unusual: protocols did not exist for many aspects of medical
    care in the twentieth century as a whole, which evolved through practical application,
    and were revised on the basis of discussion in professional forums such as those
    reported in the „Transactions‟ of the Dublin Hospitals (below), in the training of
    students, and on the basis of published papers in medical journals. There was
    however a general acceptance of the indications for symphysiotomy, which were
    „mild to moderate disproportion‟: a greater degree indicated caesarean section.
    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/293879808.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    TheChizler wrote: »
    You might quote the part where he made a passionate defence of the procedure? There's a line that might be interpreted as defending the doctors involved but apart from that I don't see it.

    I really recommend the interview rather then the article on the same page. You can also read a letter he wrote to the Irish Times years back in 2003.
    Symphysiotomy and Caesarean section
    Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 01:00

    Madam, - This year approximately 50,000 women around the world will die from an avoidable complication of childbirth, obstructed labour. Many of the babies will also die. Among the ways of preventing these deaths are two operations, A and B.

    Both operations are equally effective in saving babies' lives. The rate of long-term complications such as backache, urinary incontinence, infertility and leg pain are also the same for both operations. However, death of the mother is six times more frequent with operation A, and the need for blood transfusion is twice as common. No cases of walking difficulty following operation operation B have been identified, despite long-term follow-up.

    Operation A is Caesarean section; operation B is symphysiotomy. These are the facts, revealed in a review of the world literature on this question in the 20th century, written by Dr Bjorklund from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden.

    In June of last year I sent this review to the chairwoman of the "Survivors of Symphysiotomy", Ann O'Donnell of the National Women's Council. During a conversation with her I suggested that the group might benefit from expert assistance in clarifying the origins of their particular problems. Ms O'Donnell reassured me that they already had expert advice - from a lawyer!

    Women who believe they have been harmed by symphysiotomy deserve to have their cases considered sympathetically, with accurate information regarding the clinical circumstances surrounding the relevant birth. What women don't need is inaccurate information based more on prejudice than correct analysis of the evidence, for such an approach only perpetuates a feeling of grievance without allowing an opportunity for resolution.

    Judging by your report in last Wednesday's paper referring to symphysiotomy as a "barbaric" procedure it would appear that someone in a position of reponsibility is seriously misleading the women by either suppressing, or ignoring, the evidence. A grave injustice is being done if this is the case. - Yours, etc.,

    PETER BOYLAN, MAO, FRCPI, FRCOG, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street, Dublin 2.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/symphysiotomy-and-caesarean-section-1.362862


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1405633869039165448

    What is taking successive governments so long? You'd have to wonder are they stalling so that most of the survivors pass on. Article from 2019.
    State must allow institutionalised people access to personal files.
    Silencing of survivors of historical abuse by those in power has now lasted decades.

    In May it will be 20 years since then taoiseach Bertie Ahern’s State apology for abuse suffered by tens of thousands of children in residential institutions.
    It is to be hoped the Government will announce a dedicated independent archive of institutional and care-related records. For 20 years Irish politicians and government officials have silenced survivors of so-called historical abuse and perpetuated grave and systematic human rights violations by prohibiting the release of information.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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