Back to the 70s/80s

_Kaiser_ · 19-06-2021 3:42pm #1

Now, I'm all for and indeed miss some of the 70s/80s... the music, the movies, the generally more copped on attitude of people, and the lack of tolerance for every nonsense idea that appeared on TV, etc...

But if the Green types have their way, we'll be back to the days of things like hand me down clothing:

“Our relationships with products and services will be unrecognisable in 10 years,” according to Dr Sarah Miller, chief executive of the Rediscovery Centre in Ballymun, Dublin. “The very definition of ‘consumer’ will be a thing of the past.

“From product owner, we will become ‘product custodians’ as leasing, sharing and rental models go mainstream,” she says, predicting that an explosion will take place in the resale of products. Second-hand will become normal.

Second-hand clothing will replace fast fashion – not just on the high street, but online too, she forecasts: “Stores will be used for resale, repair, rental, refill and material recovery for products, food and technology.”

Of course the notion of reusable, longer-lasting products is a nice idea in theory but as usual it's a pipe dream. Things like:

The takeaway delivered to the home will come in reusable containers and be collected by the food outlet.

Every supermarket will stop selling products in plastic wrapping. Customers will bring reusable containers for fruit and vegetables, even cleaning agents, just as we now have become used to bringing reusable shopping bags.

Companies fitting out offices in second-hand furniture will become commonplace.

Stiff levies will deter sending rubbish for incineration, while companies that make such things as mattresses, paints or textiles will become responsible for them when such products reach the end of their useful lives.

Companies will quickly learn that green means brass, says reuse specialist Dr Miller, who says that washing machine manufacturers will charge by wash – maintaining ownership of the product, but also responsibility for its reuse.

This will save the customer money, since maintenance, repair and replacement will be the manufacturer’s responsibility, thus encouraging them to build products that last. Built-in obsolescence will itself become obsolete.

“These models will create additional jobs locally in electronic repair and maintenance,” says Miller, “Rather than only visiting stores to shop, people will visit the high street to rent, repair and reuse.

.. are just not going to happen in the Real World, and if they somehow do force it, you can be sure the peasant at the end of the chain will bear the cost as it's passed on. We'll be paying premium prices for not only used goods, but repairs on them too.

Plus how to they propose to enforce this on companies/products made outside of the jurisdiction. Maybe just price them out/ban them entirely? I suppose our already more expensive and less-choice retail sectors will love that anyway.

More fantasy nonsense that seems more aimed at virtue-signalling for the audience but if it ever actually happened (bearing in mind the target date is 2030 - less than 9 years away) would make this country completely disconnected from the rest of the global economy.

ineedeuro · 19-06-2021 4:48pm

Supermarkets are already pushing no plastic on good and I don't see a problem with fruits etc. Why you have lets say free carrots and beside them more carrots in plastic bags. What's the need for that? plus it increases wastage.

Go to the likes of Berlin and the city is covered with second hand shop, clothes and all sorts can be picked up. It's just part of the culture. The amount of clothes donated in Ireland and end up with dodgy companies selling to other cities, we should have a proper renewal system in place. I myself have donated clothes which still have tags on them.

higher quality good should be available. You buy a LG TV and it lasts a long time in a majority. Buy a Walker TV and 24 months later its on the scrap heap. Its not more LG type companies that are appearing it is the sh*t brand. What people don't realise is the s**t brand cost you more in the long run than the more expensive.

Washing machines/cooker etc, the better brands already have a repair service around Dublin, that's because of the up front cost and again it costs less over the term, 80 quid for a repair v 300 for a replacement washing machine makes sense.

Packing on fast food is over the top and should be reduced. If a pizza arrives at your door why not transfer to a plate?

Nothign I see in the above is scary or difficult to introduce

Thelonious Monk · 19-06-2021 5:27pm

So you're saying continue mining and exploiting and destroying everything on the earth until we have no resources left, because doing anything different to this self-destructive way that can only lead to war and famine is "green types" nonsense?
We 100% should be handing down clothing. The clothing industry is a massive polluter, I think in the top 5 in the world. Fast fashion has a lot to answer for.
This is why the planet is f*cked.

Granadino · 19-06-2021 5:40pm

I don't see how the 1970s were better in any way apart from the fact that there were less people on the planet possibly and way less cars on the roads. We absolutely should be looking to get rid of or cut down on plastic useage, and what is wrong with hand me down clothes. Stamp out fast fashion as well.

Manach · 19-06-2021 5:40pm

While historically there was more emphasis on the repair and restoration of goods that could be passed down from generation to generation - as opposed to the hyperconsumerised society that purchases distance Chinese goods of dubious ethical origin. So the idea of a more custodial attitude to items is a positive.

However, on the other hand there is a trend encouraged both by Big Tech and now by the Greens that ownership is somehow bad and a move to licencing is to them better. For context, in the book "Copyright Wars" it was shown that weening people from the concept of owning digital items instead of physical objects has been an objective of Intellect Property right posessors. Hence, a future where say physical books are deemed un-ecological and one is only permitted approved and limited use digital books (eg Amazon now effectively books deemed problematic) cannot be ruled out in a world with which the ideas of Green politics and Big Tech merge.

19-06-2021 5:45pm

OP is acolyte of John Deere Tractors and Apple computers doctrine:

Deny Right to Repair in so far as you can by all means possible so consumers will have to buy new products more often.

Good for you OP.

For the rest of us, I like to use my soldering iron once in a while.

I use a completely worn out lawn mower too. I cannot afford a replacement just now.

Normal One · 19-06-2021 5:47pm

I never understand the popularity of that particular cheap clothing retailer that many people were going bat**** crazy about the reopening of. The quality is terrible, they are literally wear once and dispose clothing.

19-06-2021 5:48pm

Why or how could we possibly be paying more for second hand clothes or non packaged goods?

briany · 19-06-2021 5:51pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So you're saying continue mining and exploiting and destroying everything on the earth until we have no resources left, because doing anything different to this self-destructive way that can only lead to war and famine is "green types" nonsense?
We 100% should be handing down clothing. The clothing industry is a massive polluter, I think in the top 5 in the world. Fast fashion has a lot to answer for.
This is why the planet is f*cked.

It's not really surprising. We evolved in relatively tough conditions, and taking the bit of instant gratification where we could get it was generally a good thing, i.e. eating the sweet food or having sex (easily digested food/procreation). That was our reward system working for our biological benefit. Now we've created a situation where we can have lots of instant gratification and so it's not really a surprise we've gone mad with it. Unfortunately, it'll probably take much longer than would be necessary for our dopamine receptors to evolve such that we can be more sensible, which is why we have to be dictated to by a minority, creating much resentment among the rest who just want their pleasure, comfort and convenience and sod tomorrow.

joseywhales · 19-06-2021 6:17pm

I'm have some conservative leanings but when it comes to the environment I think we are joke. We know our way of life currently is unsustainable , a lot of the low hanging fruit like reducing waste and intensive agriculture on poor quality land, fossil fuel based power production, over fishing and industrial waste still remain. Whenever any attempt is made to build momentum we get excuses like "well doesn't make a difference if china and India won't clean up their act" , it does make a difference because where the west leads others will eventually follow. That's what being a leader is, doing the dirty work, making the most sacrifices. It is a true shame that even now our children live in a world where nature has been so thinned out. They are lucky to see a bumble bee these days.

whisky_galore · 19-06-2021 6:23pm

The current takeaway coffee "culture" is some joke.

I've lost count of the numbers of cups fcuked out of car windows and discarded at scenic areas. There should be a charge of at least 50c on disposable cups.

I was shocked at the amount of plastic wrapping and containers on a fish and chips meal lately.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 12:43am

Normal One wrote: »

I never understand the popularity of that particular cheap clothing retailer that many people were going bat**** crazy about the reopening of. The quality is terrible, they are literally wear once and dispose clothing.

I only buy my underpants, socks and shorts there.

Coats, tops, t shirts, trackies etc yil buy Nike, Adidas etc for a tenner more an will last you 6 years.

20-06-2021 1:02am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So you're saying continue mining and exploiting and destroying everything on the earth until we have no resources left, because doing anything different to this self-destructive way that can only lead to war and famine is "green types" nonsense?
We 100% should be handing down clothing. The clothing industry is a massive polluter, I think in the top 5 in the world. Fast fashion has a lot to answer for.
This is why the planet is f*cked.

that and Jazz music, especially elevator Jazz music- just think of the amount of extra clothes people buy because they hear Jazz music in shops. The Catholic Church in Ireland back in the 1930's, nearly 100 years ago predicted all of this

https://www.theirishstory.com/2011/07/01/the-anti-jazz-campaign/#.YM6Egy0ZM1I

Leitrim was to become the centre of the Anti – Jazz campaign and its leader was the parish priest of Cloone, Fr. Peter Conefrey. Conefrey was an ardent cultural nationalist and was heavily involved in the promotion of Irish music and dancing and the Irish language. He devoted his life to making parishioners wear home – spun clothes and become self – sufficient in food.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBlFHuCzPgY

Leg End Reject · 20-06-2021 1:24am

Clothes will need to be made from natural fabrics by proper seamstresses to last. Materials need to be cut correctly too which leads to some waste. New clothes would also cost a lot more than most people are willing to pay.

I watched a programme where small retailers in the UK were pushing for less waste - dry goods, cleaning products and toiletries were dispensed into reusable containers. I'd imagine manufacturers will have to be financially incentivised to pursue that.

If you bought a washing machine, tumble dryer, cooker etc in the 70s or 80s you could expect it to last 15+ years with maybe the odd repair. You'd be lucky to get 5-10 with a lot of what's sold now.

The only thing I can think of that lasts longer is cars, but you're screwed with tax and insurance on older cars so many change them before they should. The push for electric cars will likely make it too expensive to keep existing petrol and diesel models.

Hardest thing to change will be mindsets - new is better when keeping up with the Jones'.

20-06-2021 8:27am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OP is acolyte of John Deere Tractors and Apple computers doctrine:

Deny Right to Repair in so far as you can by all means possible so consumers will have to buy new products more often.

Good for you OP.

For the rest of us, I like to use my soldering iron once in a while.

I use a completely worn out lawn mower too. I cannot afford a replacement just now.

I’ve got my MacBook repaired for free. That said those devices rarely need it.

Your soldering iron isn’t going to fix a laptop screen.

And in fact it’s high quality goods that last that are good carbon citizens. Also iPhones are in fact handed down already.

20-06-2021 8:33am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So you're saying continue mining and exploiting and destroying everything on the earth until we have no resources left, because doing anything different to this self-destructive way that can only lead to war and famine is "green types" nonsense?
We 100% should be handing down clothing. The clothing industry is a massive polluter, I think in the top 5 in the world. Fast fashion has a lot to answer for.
This is why the planet is f*cked.

Not sure as usual if you mean everybody should be handing down clothing or just the poor and middle income.

Ireland does need to change but as with flying it isn’t as simple as adding a carbon tax or tax on fast fashion. If we’re going to stop people stop shopping so much in Penney’s then we need to stop people spending so much in Brown Thomas. In fact start here.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 9:07am

ineedeuro wrote: »

Go to the likes of Berlin and the city is covered with second hand shop, clothes and all sorts can be picked up. It's just part of the culture.

That's because so many Germans are miserable bastards who wouldn't give you the steam off their piss. I've never encountered a more miserable with money bunch of people when it comes to spending, they make Cavan men look like Floyd Mayweather. I seriously struggle to understand how the economy of Germany functions when so many of their people are just obsessed with not spending a cent.

whisky_galore · 20-06-2021 9:10am

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

That's because so many Germans are miserable bastards who wouldn't give you the steam off their piss. I've never encountered a more miserable with money bunch of people when it comes to spending, they make Cavan men look like Floyd Mayweather. I seriously struggle to understand how the economy of Germany functions when so many of their people are just obsessed with not spending a cent.

Which, of course, is better than spending heaps of money on disposable shyte you dont really need in your life.

osarusan · 20-06-2021 9:21am

Just an example from Japan - you can order takeaway food which will be delivered on real plates/dishes/bowls, just like in a restaurant...and then the next morning those items will be stacked, neatly and cleaned, outside the door of the home for collection by the food/delivery company.

Second-hand shops are a big thing there too. Furniture, clothes, appliances...all cheap and in good condition, even with warranties.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 9:23am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Which, of course, is better than spending heaps of money on disposable shyte you dont really need in your life.

I worked in a call centre briefly some years ago and witnessed zee Germans doing a U turn and running for another entrance at Christmas when they saw a girl at the entrance holding a children's toy collection bucket :pac::pac: Actually did a legger rather than throw a euro into the drum.

I was in Australia for 18 months and stayed in hostels during most of it. We used to be given a free drink token on entry to the backpacker nightclubs, the Germans would sit there nursing the free beer for a good 3 hours then head home having not spent a penny.

Eating out was the McDonakd's Eurosaver (or dollar saver over there). You would never see a German eat anything bigger than a cheeseburger and small fries. An oul Big Mac meal or Quarter Pounder meal was too much money to be spending. They would walk 90 minutes in the blistering heat to avoid paying 2 quid on a bus or train. I doubt any of them ever seen the inside of a taxi.

A more miserable bunch of bastards you will never meet. I seriously struggle to work out how their economy functions with so many people who refuse to buy anything more than the basic requirements to survive.

Thelonious Monk · 20-06-2021 9:25am

fvp4 wrote: »

Not sure as usual if you mean everybody should be handing down clothing or just the poor and middle income.

Ireland does need to change but as with flying it isn’t as simple as adding a carbon tax or tax on fast fashion. If we’re going to stop people stop shopping so much in Penney’s then we need to stop people spending so much in Brown Thomas. In fact start here.

Yes everyone should have the same amount of expendable income and access to resources regardless of who they are or what they do, I also want this communist state you are always pushing.

20-06-2021 9:34am

fvp4 wrote: »

If we’re going to stop people stop shopping so much in Penney’s then we need to stop people spending so much in Brown Thomas.

Why not close both chains down and send the both clientele to TK Maxx.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 10:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not close both chains down and send the both clientele to TK Maxx.

I struggle to see how that place turns a profit. Chaotic shelves, 200 euro for the type of stuff so unfashionable you'd wear it to a fancy dress.

whisky_galore · 20-06-2021 10:35am

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

I worked in a call centre briefly some years ago and witnessed zee Germans doing a U turn and running for another entrance at Christmas when they saw a girl at the entrance holding a children's toy collection bucket :pac::pac: Actually did a legger rather than throw a euro into the drum.

I was in Australia for 18 months and stayed in hostels during most of it. We used to be given a free drink token on entry to the backpacker nightclubs, the Germans would sit there nursing the free beer for a good 3 hours then head home having not spent a penny.

Eating out was the McDonakd's Eurosaver (or dollar saver over there). You would never see a German eat anything bigger than a cheeseburger and small fries. An oul Big Mac meal or Quarter Pounder meal was too much money to be spending. They would walk 90 minutes in the blistering heat to avoid paying 2 quid on a bus or train. I doubt any of them ever seen the inside of a taxi.

A more miserable bunch of bastards you will never meet. I seriously struggle to work out how their economy functions with so many people who refuse to buy anything more than the basic requirements to survive.

Strange how some of the oh so generous Irish use public bins for domestic waste because they're too fcukin tight to pay for a collection.

Irish splash cash to feather their own nests and impress others.

ineedeuro · 20-06-2021 10:47am

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

I worked in a call centre briefly some years ago and witnessed zee Germans doing a U turn and running for another entrance at Christmas when they saw a girl at the entrance holding a children's toy collection bucket :pac::pac: Actually did a legger rather than throw a euro into the drum.

I was in Australia for 18 months and stayed in hostels during most of it. We used to be given a free drink token on entry to the backpacker nightclubs, the Germans would sit there nursing the free beer for a good 3 hours then head home having not spent a penny.

Eating out was the McDonakd's Eurosaver (or dollar saver over there). You would never see a German eat anything bigger than a cheeseburger and small fries. An oul Big Mac meal or Quarter Pounder meal was too much money to be spending. They would walk 90 minutes in the blistering heat to avoid paying 2 quid on a bus or train. I doubt any of them ever seen the inside of a taxi.

A more miserable bunch of bastards you will never meet. I seriously struggle to work out how their economy functions with so many people who refuse to buy anything more than the basic requirements to survive.

Yet we have the people of ireland filling the countryside with rubbish because they don’t want to pay 100 euro a year for bin collection

The J Stands for Jay · 20-06-2021 10:54am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

, I miss some of the 70s/80s... the lack of tolerance

Ok

The J Stands for Jay · 20-06-2021 10:55am

Manach wrote: »

While historically there was more emphasis on the repair and restoration of goods that could be passed down from generation to generation - as opposed to the hyperconsumerised society that purchases distance Chinese goods of dubious ethical origin. So the idea of a more custodial attitude to items is a positive.

However, on the other hand there is a trend encouraged both by Big Tech and now by the Greens that ownership is somehow bad and a move to licencing is to them better. For context, in the book "Copyright Wars" it was shown that weening people from the concept of owning digital items instead of physical objects has been an objective of Intellect Property right posessors. Hence, a future where say physical books are deemed un-ecological and one is only permitted approved and limited use digital books (eg Amazon now effectively books deemed problematic) cannot be ruled out in a world with which the ideas of Green politics and Big Tech merge.

The second hand book and record shops will sort you out.

machiavellianme · 20-06-2021 11:01am

I still wear t-shirts that are 25+ years old most days and I haven't bought jeans or shoes in 10 years. People keep giving me jumpers as Christmas presents so I just keep wearing the same stuff. If it's not broke, why replace it? I've never been fashionable so I'm not missing out on much.

However, I couldn't give a hoot about all this renewable nonsense. It's a money spinner, that's it. Why should Ireland impose such despotic restrictions on its people when our contributions to greenhouse gases and pollution in general is almost negligible on a global scale? When the US and China adopt these proposals, then I'll take note, but until then, the Greens can rot (or in their own lingo - compost) for all I care.

The J Stands for Jay · 20-06-2021 11:01am

whisky_galore wrote: »

.

I was shocked at the amount of plastic wrapping and containers on a fish and chips meal lately.

It's shocking that there's so much take away foods these days. I've had one since Covid started (work thought they were doing us a favour with justeat vouchers), and the pizza was in a recycled card board box, chips in brown paper, and it all went in the composting bin.

There's no need for plastic anywhere near fish and chips. It should just be paper.

The J Stands for Jay · 20-06-2021 11:08am

Leg End Reject wrote: »

.

If you bought a washing machine, tumble dryer, cooker etc in the 70s or 80s you could expect it to last 15+ years with maybe the odd repair. You'd be lucky to get 5-10 with a lot of what's sold now.

Parents got an indesit washing machine around 1980. It was finally unrepairable by about 2006/7. They still have the glass from the door as a fruit bowl.

The J Stands for Jay · 20-06-2021 11:09am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

. If we’re going to stop people stop shopping so much in Penney’s then we need to stop people spending so much in Brown Thomas. In fact start here.

It's not the amount of money spent that's the issue, it's the quantity of polluting items produced that matters. For that reason, Penny's/Primark is an enemy of the people.

Glaceon · 20-06-2021 11:21am

McGaggs wrote: »

Parents got an indesit washing machine around 1980. It was finally inreapirable by about 2006/7. They still have the glass from the door as a fruit bowl.

Compare that to Indesit (also Hotpoint) dryers from 10-15 years ago that were so badly made that they were a fire hazard. I have a recent AEG vacuum cleaner and it’s crap. Many of the brands we would have known as “good” are certainly not now.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 11:21am

ineedeuro wrote: »

Yet we have the people of ireland filling the countryside with rubbish because they don’t want to pay 100 euro a year for bin collection

100 a year? That's 8.50 a month odd, who collects your bins?

Mine is 22 odd a month.

spacetweek · 20-06-2021 11:35am

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

A more miserable bunch of bastards you will never meet. I seriously struggle to work out how their economy functions with so many people who refuse to buy anything more than the basic requirements to survive.

Hah!
We had a young (19yo) German couple stay with us once, we knew them through friends but hadn't met them before. Stuff they did in Dublin:

- When one of us came in with the shopping, the bloke goes "Oh you bought fruit? If i had known this, I could just have taken your fruit instead of buying my own." He was totally serious.
- They found a place called Seomra Spraoi (sadly gone now) where there was a "bring food, take food" ethos. You could bring anything you liked and take anything. It was all on an honour system. The two of them headed for it and when they came back they were going "We found this place where you can take free food, it was great. We took all of it."
- They refused to get to Dublin Airport using any kind of express bus or taxi - local buses all the way. I explained to them how this was a severe form of madness but they insisted. They got the Luas from Tallaght to O'Connell St and got the local bus through Coolock etc. to the airport. I never heard from them again but I'd be amazed if this journey took less than 2.5 hours.

20-06-2021 11:55am

Glaceon wrote: »

Many of the brands we would have known as “good” are certainly not now.

Particularly applies to tellys:

"Nordmende", "JVC" , made by Turkish entity,

joseywhales · 20-06-2021 1:46pm

machiavellianme wrote: »

I still wear t-shirts that are 25+ years old most days and I haven't bought jeans or shoes in 10 years. People keep giving me jumpers as Christmas presents so I just keep wearing the same stuff. If it's not broke, why replace it? I've never been fashionable so I'm not missing out on much.

However, I couldn't give a hoot about all this renewable nonsense. It's a money spinner, that's it. Why should Ireland impose such despotic restrictions on its people when our contributions to greenhouse gases and pollution in general is almost negligible on a global scale? When the US and China adopt these proposals, then I'll take note, but until then, the Greens can rot (or in their own lingo - compost) for all I care.

But you understand that having this attitude means that nothing will change until most of nature with the exception of pests, some insects and parasites are left, our weather is more extreme and the water and air we consume is highly polluted killing millions more people every year?(beyond the millions that die currently from air pollution)

"I will do it if they do it" means noone will do anything because everyone will have the same excuse. Mutually ensured destruction does not seem very mature to me.

ineedeuro · 20-06-2021 1:52pm

crooked cockney villain wrote: »

100 a year? That's 8.50 a month odd, who collects your bins?

Mine is 22 odd a month.

Well mine is 300 a year with a black, brown, green bin so that’s 100 a bin a year

MontgomeryClift · 20-06-2021 2:02pm

I see nothing wrong with reuse and repair, as I find the consumerist frenzy, and all the waste that goes with it, to be reprehensible. The sheer volume of single use plastic packaging we use is disgusting to anyone sensitive to the natural beauty of the world. Go to any recycling (actually disassembly and landfill) centre and see how many working or repairable things are being dumped.

Plastic bottles and aluminium cans will be collected by a deposit return system for recycling and reuse, while “rediscovery centres” will encourage reuse. Companies fitting out offices in second-hand furniture will become commonplace.

This is fine, but if we can repair machinery and electronic devices then why can't be make it here in the first place instead of having it made in Asia and having it shipped across the world?

Obviously that would be an energy-consuming industry, and would clash with our zero-carbon targets. So we have the Chinese make stuff with coal-fired power stations and we can pretend we're being green by fixing some of it, or renting it instead of owning it.

Which ties in perfectly with the World Economic Forum's declaration that by 2030 you will own nothing and be happy.

By 2030, if this works, the average member of the Irish public will pay homage to the circular economy routinely by buying products that last, that can be reused and repaired, and that leave no waste behind when they are finished.

Funny how this prediction from a totally independent (government funded) charity ties in perfectly with the World Economic Forum's prediction that by 2030 we will own nothing and be happy. They're so good at predicting stuff. It's almost like they're dictating what comes next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBBxWtKKQiA

Also, does this mean an end to the movement of people from the third world to the resource-hungry developed world? Are the Greens going to oppose immigration on these grounds? Will they rebel against the GDP-worship that requires ceaseless production and consumerism, maximum employment and pointless busywork?

Tony EH · 20-06-2021 4:40pm

We were having this conversation in the boozer the other day, about the 80's and eventually we all came to the conclusion that not much has actually changed. When we were kids we all thought that the year 2000 would be this turning point and the "future" would be here or at least start to get here. But we're now 21 years into the "future" and apart from a few mickey mouse things, like the web, flat screen teles or everyone having handheld devices, it's all pretty much the same shit.

It's all a damn sight more expensive though. Well, not all. A video recorder would have set you back 100's of pounds in 1985. You can get a Blu Ray player for a song now. We have better computers and whatnot. Better domestic equipment and so forth. But not a lot has altered. Certainly not in the manner we were all apparently expecting when we were kids.

As for the Greens...pffft. But there is something to be said for getting rid of out extremist consumer culture and learning to make do in some areas.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 9:58pm

Tony EH wrote: »

We were having this conversation in the boozer the other day, about the 80's and eventually we all came to the conclusion that not much has actually changed. When we were kids we all thought that the year 2000 would be this turning point and the "future" would be here or at least start to get here. But we're now 21 years into the "future" and apart from a few mickey mouse things, like the web, flat screen teles or everyone having handheld devices, it's all pretty much the same shit.

.

Exactly this. From about the 1930's to the 1980's was probably the most rapid advancement in human history, from living conditions, tech, fashion, music and culture etc. Whereas I can't imagine an Irish man in 1710 had a dramatically different life, fashion etc to one living in 1810.

Like you say, bar small tweaks in technology, a time traveller wandering around an older residential part of Dublin in 2021 wouldn't notice a whole pile different about the place, the way people dress etc etc, yet the differences between 1981 and 2001 would probably be staggering. It's like we froze in time.

crooked cockney villain · 20-06-2021 10:02pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Hah!

- They found a place called Seomra Spraoi (sadly gone now) where there was a "bring food, take food" ethos. You could bring anything you liked and take anything. It was all on an honour system. The two of them headed for it and when they came back they were going "We found this place where you can take free food, it was great. We took all of it."
.

Reminds me, knew of Germans over in Sydney who had no qualms in eating for free at homeless soup kitchens. Absolutely no shame about it, if it saves them a few quid they will do it.

Though I never did see it myself some of them were happy enough to hit the streets begging for travel money.

https://www.google.com/search?q=backpackers+begging&hl=en&source=hp&ei=uqzPYOSzCM-FhbIPseyekAI&iflsig=AINFCbYAAAAAYM-6ymjNIEWxksjcQ3k0K9-UpUQCXuHZ&oq=backpackers+begging&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyAggAMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOgUIABCxAzoOCC4QsQMQxwEQowIQkwI6AgguOggILhDHARCjAjoICC4QsQMQgwE6CAguELEDEJMCOgUILhCxAzoICC4QxwEQrwE6BQgAEMkDOgQIABAKUM0DWK0eYJojaABwAHgAgAHgAYgBxwySAQYxNi4yLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjk-OzqjafxAhXPQkEAHTG2ByIQ4dUDCAg&uact=5

Donald Trump · 20-06-2021 10:04pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Hah!
We had a young (19yo) German couple stay with us once, we knew them through friends but hadn't met them before. Stuff they did in Dublin:

- When one of us came in with the shopping, the bloke goes "Oh you bought fruit? If i had known this, I could just have taken your fruit instead of buying my own." He was totally serious.

Wait til you hear what happened when they heard Poland had a load of fruit and veg back in the day

Thelonious Monk · 20-06-2021 10:08pm

I've found Germans just to be sensible with money rather than miserly. That's why credit cards never really kicked off there and they didn't go bananas with credit in the 00s like much of the world. When you go out for their birthday to a restaurant or something they pay for everything, I always found that one odd, we do the opposite in Ireland. Saving money, pickling and fermenting food, big things in Germany, you never know when the next war will come around.

20-06-2021 10:09pm

Don't hang around with polish people of you think Germans are miserable!!!

Donald Trump · 20-06-2021 10:14pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've found Germans just to be sensible with money rather than miserly. That's why credit cards never really kicked off there and they didn't go bananas with credit in the 00s like much of the world. When you go out for their birthday to a restaurant or something they pay for everything, I always found that one odd, we do the opposite in Ireland. Saving money, pickling and fermenting food, big things in Germany, you never know when the next war will come around.

Don't mention the war!

The thing is that they would know when the next one will come if they have it planned already. And the feckers love planning. And wars. Allegedly :pac:

CalamariFritti · 20-06-2021 10:28pm

I dont think we need to go back to hand me down but I do think that for the last 50-70 years we are going in the completely wrong direction. Its all about increasing consumption for the sake of profit. No durability or sustainability. A new car every 3 years. A new phone every 2 years. New clothes all the time. Buying useless nonsense for the sake of it. Things are actually being designed to be throwaway and not repairable, We are living on a throwaway society. All for the sake of this destructive capitalist dogma of ever increasing growth. With all the profit ultimately ending up in the hands of the very few where it does no good to society or anyone but those few. So that they can have their mansions and yachts and jets and their vanity projects. Sucking the fruits of labour and science out of the system.

Which is the real surge. Its not us going on holidays or driving a car. Our whole existence is designed to be consumerist and wasteful and thats the elephant in the room. The climate and co2 debate is just a smokescreen, its being being instrumentalized by big corporate/industry already to sell us even more stuff. Trying to disguise the fact that its the capitalist system itself that is the biggest killer.

And its getting more extreme all the time. We have practically a new feudal system in place already. All the money and the power concentrated with a few oligarchs who hold the political and opinion strings. And soon they will be telling us we cant do X and we cant do Y but they wont tell us to work or consume less. Work, eat, sleep and consume. And to hell with everything else including our planet.

And we suck it up believing the neoliberal propaganda that 'this is the way'. That our own small wealth and wellbeing depends on the success of this system and cant be achieved any other way. Ignoring that this system is destructive by design. It cannot be any other way.

I hope we wont stay blind to this until its too late but right now its looking bleak.

Dyr · 20-06-2021 10:51pm

That rediscovery centre is another massive white elephant, there's a pool of full time chancers in the NGO and community sector ready to soak up any funding that europe is throwing around.

whisky_galore · 21-06-2021 12:21pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've found Germans just to be sensible with money rather than miserly. That's why credit cards never really kicked off there and they didn't go bananas with credit in the 00s like much of the world. When you go out for their birthday to a restaurant or something they pay for everything, I always found that one odd, we do the opposite in Ireland. Saving money, pickling and fermenting food, big things in Germany, you never know when the next war will come around.

You wont find them building stupid dick waving mini hotels for their tiny family with the shiny SUV as a middle finger to next door.
Paddy gets a sniff of money and hes thinking about the purchase of a helicopter and offshore property and other ways of pissing it away. People prudent with money and rainy day savers get laughed at here.

ineedeuro · 21-06-2021 12:31pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

You wont find them building stupid dick waving mini hotels for their tiny family with the shiny SUV as a middle finger to next door.
Paddy gets a sniff of money and hes thinking about the purchase of a helicopter and offshore property and other ways of pissing it away. People prudent with money and rainy day savers get laughed at here.

Who can forget the bust to buy apartments in Bulgaria wasn't it during the early 2000's?

The J Stands for Jay · 21-06-2021 2:18pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Who can forget the bust to buy apartments in Bulgaria wasn't it during the early 2000's?

You know, I think the Ross O'Carroll Kelly books will be an important source of historical information about the excesses on the first few decades of this century. I vaguely recall Ross being goaded into clearing his current account to buy two Bulgarian apartments sight unseen.

Gentlemanne · 21-06-2021 2:32pm

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I dont think we need to go back to hand me down but I do think that for the last 50-70 years we are going in the completely wrong direction. Its all about increasing consumption for the sake of profit. No durability or sustainability. A new car every 3 years. A new phone every 2 years. New clothes all the time. Buying useless nonsense for the sake of it. Things are actually being designed to be throwaway and not repairable, We are living on a throwaway society. All for the sake of this destructive capitalist dogma of ever increasing growth. With all the profit ultimately ending up in the hands of the very few where it does no good to society or anyone but those few. So that they can have their mansions and yachts and jets and their vanity projects. Sucking the fruits of labour and science out of the system.

Which is the real surge. Its not us going on holidays or driving a car. Our whole existence is designed to be consumerist and wasteful and thats the elephant in the room. The climate and co2 debate is just a smokescreen, its being being instrumentalized by big corporate/industry already to sell us even more stuff. Trying to disguise the fact that its the capitalist system itself that is the biggest killer.

And its getting more extreme all the time. We have practically a new feudal system in place already. All the money and the power concentrated with a few oligarchs who hold the political and opinion strings. And soon they will be telling us we cant do X and we cant do Y but they wont tell us to work or consume less. Work, eat, sleep and consume. And to hell with everything else including our planet.

And we suck it up believing the neoliberal propaganda that 'this is the way'. That our own small wealth and wellbeing depends on the success of this system and cant be achieved any other way. Ignoring that this system is destructive by design. It cannot be any other way.

I hope we wont stay blind to this until its too late but right now its looking bleak.

Great analysis, its worth pointing out that even the concept of a personal carbon footprint was a strategy that big oil used to shift responsilbiity:
https://clear.ucdavis.edu/blog/big-oil-distracts-their-carbon-footprint-tricking-you-focus-yours

Back to the 70s/80s

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