What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Hodger · 14-06-2021 03:50PM

astrofool wrote: »

There's not much news there, no data driving it and just giving an opinion that was related to the rare chance of CVST and said absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the vaccine, the EMA guidance has not changed around the use of AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines.

This is fine, you just have to be OK waiting and keep practicing social distancing measures and hoping that there isn't too many people ahead of you in the queue for choosing a vaccine.

I am much more ok waiting for the right vaccine then accepting AstraZeneca ( If offered ) with all the various cases of people dying from blood clots linked to that particular vaccine and with the news another country is reported to now restrict the use of AstraZeneca to those over 60.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/06/11/us-health-coronavirus-italy-astrazeneca

14-06-2021 08:08PM

https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout

This guy thinks there may be little difference between AZ and Pfzier other than pfzier is a few weeks quicker to reach optimal protection than AZ.

Loving the data today from UK.

In fairness to Philip Nolan he said as much a few months back.

astrofool · 14-06-2021 10:15PM

Lyle wrote: »

This is bollocks.

From the EMA:

https://mobile.twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1404072431766151172

From Cavaleri himself:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/astrazeneca-shots-should-be-halted-over-60s-too-ema-official-2021-06-13/

To be fair to the poor EMA guy, reading his initial statement, I would understand what he meant, however, in the age of the internet and clickbait, he should have been more careful as these words spiral out of control very quickly.

astrofool · 14-06-2021 10:16PM

Hodger wrote: »

I am much more ok waiting for the right vaccine then accepting AstraZeneca ( If offered ) with all the various cases of people dying from blood clots linked to that particular vaccine and with the news another country is reported to now restrict the use of AstraZeneca to those over 60.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/06/11/us-health-coronavirus-italy-astrazeneca

Just to be crystal clear, the EMA person mis-spoke and has clarified his remarks and is not calling for AZ usage to be stopped.

robinph · 14-06-2021 11:47PM

astrofool wrote: »

To be fair to the poor EMA guy, reading his initial statement, I would understand what he meant, however, in the age of the internet and clickbait, he should have been more careful as these words spiral out of control very quickly.

You have to allow for English not being the first language, or any statement having been run back and forth through Google translate a couple of times. Even if English was the first language you should check the context of what they were actually answering most of the time also.

Furze99 · 16-06-2021 10:08AM

Having listened to various experts over past few days inc Colm Henry of HSE today, I'm even more confused.

The general line seems to be that a second dose of an MRNA vaccine after a first dose of AZ would be beneficial. Even Henry above said that.

But that people who've been given a first dose of AZ shouldn't ask for this and that instead of waiting 3 months for a second dose of AZ we might now get it a week or so earlier.

And that people should not decline second dose of AZ and wait for the inevitable dose of an 'mrna booster' because it doesn't suit the HSE plan.

Which makes you wonder - which is more important? Individuals health and concerns or the schemes of the HSE strategists.

Mixed messages all the way.

brendanwalsh · 16-06-2021 10:15AM

Just refuse your second AZ on health grounds and clotting concerns and they’ll be forced to give everyone mRNA.

AZ contract was not renewed by the EU.
That means once this supply is done, Europe is done with adenovector vaccines.

Mickey Mouse Martin etc just want to use up the stock of AZ they have left floating around

is_that_so · 16-06-2021 10:35AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Just refuse your second AZ on health grounds and clotting concerns and they’ll be forced to give everyone mRNA.

AZ contract was not renewed by the EU.
That means once this supply is done, Europe is done with adenovector vaccines.

Mickey Mouse Martin etc just want to use up the stock of AZ they have left floating around

That's really not going to happen. If you're on one and refuse the second, you're on our own. The quantity of AZ coming in the next month or so should be about enough to cover second doses and any extras will be returned to the EU for donation.

Allinall · 16-06-2021 10:40AM

Furze99 wrote: »

Having listened to various experts over past few days inc Colm Henry of HSE today, I'm even more confused.

The general line seems to be that a second dose of an MRNA vaccine after a first dose of AZ would be beneficial. Even Henry above said that.

But that people who've been given a first dose of AZ shouldn't ask for this and that instead of waiting 3 months for a second dose of AZ we might now get it a week or so earlier.

And that people should not decline second dose of AZ and wait for the inevitable dose of an 'mrna booster' because it doesn't suit the HSE plan.

Which makes you wonder - which is more important? Individuals health and concerns or the schemes of the HSE strategists.

Mixed messages all the way.

Where did you get this nugget from?

is_that_so · 16-06-2021 10:42AM

Allinall wrote: »

Where did you get this nugget from?

It's now the plan , to reduce the gap down to 8 weeks. In effect to get all second doses ASAP. Delta fear at the back of it.

titan18 · 16-06-2021 10:45AM

is_that_so wrote: »

That's really not going to happen. If you're on one and refuse the second, you're on our own. The quantity of AZ coming in the next month or so should be about enough to cover second doses and any extras will be returned to the EU for donation.

So, if all the HCWs who got AZ refused the second dose of it, you think the HSE would go grand, you're on your own? Considering that loads of the infections happen there, it'd be a giant own goal if they did that.

Also, based on track results, the people who refused the first dose of the AZ vaccine got a Pfizer one or a J&J one in the end anyway. They didn't even wait until the end of the queue, they got them back in May like a few weeks after they would have got the AZ one.

Bass Reeves · 16-06-2021 10:51AM

Furze99 wrote: »

Having listened to various experts over past few days inc Colm Henry of HSE today, I'm even more confused.

The general line seems to be that a second dose of an MRNA vaccine after a first dose of AZ would be beneficial. Even Henry above said that.

But that people who've been given a first dose of AZ shouldn't ask for this and that instead of waiting 3 months for a second dose of AZ we might now get it a week or so earlier.

And that people should not decline second dose of AZ and wait for the inevitable dose of an 'mrna booster' because it doesn't suit the HSE plan.

Which makes you wonder - which is more important? Individuals health and concerns or the schemes of the HSE strategists.

Mixed messages all the way.

The HSE and NEPHET cannot look at individual health, it must look at the best outcome for the general population. Because of variants it must get 80-90% of the population vaccinated.
If it uses mRNA as second dose for those that got the first dose as AZ it will push out vaccination of younger adults by 2-3 weeks. As well mRNA vaccine is suitable for 12-18 year olds. By using up AZ which is a decent vaccine it may allow them to vaccinate these teenagers by mid-term maybe sooner Using up AZ doses also virtually guarantee's vaccination of 3rd level cohort by early first term.

AZ has way less risk attached to 2nd dose, it builds immunity slowly. A mRNA booster before Christmas will mean that this cohort will be the most protected section of society by next Christmas when any risk will arise again IMO

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Just refuse your second AZ on health grounds and clotting concerns and they’ll be forced to give everyone mRNA.

AZ contract was not renewed by the EU.
That means once this supply is done, Europe is done with adenovector vaccines.

Mickey Mouse Martin etc just want to use up the stock of AZ they have left floating around

Selfish and stupid as jinking. Selfish as it dose not look at what the vaccination plan is and what could be the result for younger adults. I suspect you have neither children or grandchildren and if you have you are a selfish git

Stupid as you may not be given a second dose until AZ booster is given later in the year.

I got AZ as first dose and will take it as second dose, yes I prefer to have got mRNA and to get it as second dose but I understand what is best overall for everyone

is_that_so · 16-06-2021 10:59AM

titan18 wrote: »

So, if all the HCWs who got AZ refused the second dose of it, you think the HSE would go grand, you're on your own? Considering that loads of the infections happen there, it'd be a giant own goal if they did that.

Also, based on track results, the people who refused the first dose of the AZ vaccine got a Pfizer one or a J&J one in the end anyway. They didn't even wait until the end of the queue, they got them back in May like a few weeks after they would have got the AZ one.

I really don't see what throwing up completely imaginary scenarios are supposed to do. The HSE told them, as they've told all other groups, there is no choice of vaccine. I also doubt there are that many contrarians like you in the HSE. From what we've seen people are very eager to get shots so all of this is completely moot.

titan18 · 16-06-2021 11:06AM

is_that_so wrote: »

I really don't see what throwing up completely imaginary scenarios are supposed to do. The HSE told them, as they've told all other groups, there is no choice of vaccine. I also doubt there are that many contrarians like you in the HSE. From what we've seen people are very eager to get shots so all of this is completely moot.

They told them there's no choice of vaccine, and yet still the people who refused to take AZ still ended up with getting Pfizer quite quickly after refusing that (and I know people who did this), and all of them will be fully dosed before the people who complied are.

The whole situation around threatening people to take AZ and then giving in immediately to those who still refused is ridiculous. I'm not in that age group but I know people who are and most are furious, and the reason other groups like SF are getting involved is cos those people are turning to them as they've been let down by FF and FG here. Being obstinate and refusing to give them a different second dose or not allowing the choice whilst we can see other countries doing that is making it worse as when other countries see the scientific evidence of doing it but ours are still refusing, then it doesn't look good, and it looks like they just want to get rid of what they had bought.

is_that_so · 16-06-2021 11:15AM

titan18 wrote: »

They told them there's no choice of vaccine, and yet still the people who refused to take AZ still ended up with getting Pfizer quite quickly after refusing that (and I know people who did this), and all of them will be fully dosed before the people who complied are.

The whole situation around threatening people to take AZ and then giving in immediately to those who still refused is ridiculous. I'm not in that age group but I know people who are and most are furious, and the reason other groups like SF are getting involved is cos those people are turning to them as they've been let down by FF and FG here. Being obstinate and refusing to give them a different second dose or not allowing the choice whilst we can see other countries doing that is making it worse as when other countries see the scientific evidence of doing it but ours are still refusing, then it doesn't look good, and it looks like they just want to get rid of what they had bought.

Again why would people who've taken one dose suddenly want to refuse the second dose? It really defies logic. NIAC also say No to mixing vaccines so there is no choice. Anyone who refused it the first time will be assigned an alternative later.
As for SF, the HSE will give them very short shrift if they embroil themselves in public health decision-making. Very bad politics too.

16-06-2021 11:18AM

titan18 wrote: »

They told them there's no choice of vaccine, and yet still the people who refused to take AZ still ended up with getting Pfizer quite quickly after refusing that (and I know people who did this), and all of them will be fully dosed before the people who complied are.

The whole situation around threatening people to take AZ and then giving in immediately to those who still refused is ridiculous. I'm not in that age group but I know people who are and most are furious, and the reason other groups like SF are getting involved is cos those people are turning to them as they've been let down by FF and FG here. Being obstinate and refusing to give them a different second dose or not allowing the choice whilst we can see other countries doing that is making it worse as when other countries see the scientific evidence of doing it but ours are still refusing, then it doesn't look good, and it looks like they just want to get rid of what they had bought.

Its a highly effective vaccine once the second dose is taken. No practical difference to the mRNA. But lets let a noisy uninformed self entitled group delay the whole vaccine program.

The reason we have not taken up option on further AZ vaccines is because of inconsistent supply and the long term security of supply of other options

astrofool · 16-06-2021 11:26AM

Furze99 wrote: »

Having listened to various experts over past few days inc Colm Henry of HSE today, I'm even more confused.

The general line seems to be that a second dose of an MRNA vaccine after a first dose of AZ would be beneficial. Even Henry above said that.

But that people who've been given a first dose of AZ shouldn't ask for this and that instead of waiting 3 months for a second dose of AZ we might now get it a week or so earlier.

And that people should not decline second dose of AZ and wait for the inevitable dose of an 'mrna booster' because it doesn't suit the HSE plan.

Which makes you wonder - which is more important? Individuals health and concerns or the schemes of the HSE strategists.

Mixed messages all the way.

Just to pick out a post as there's a lot of misinformation about.

There is still ongoing safety and efficacy data being gathered for a mixed dose regimen of vaccines, none of it is approved yet and the countries that are doing it are doing so without manufacturer sign off or sufficient safety and effectiveness data.

It is important to get a full dose regimen of whichever vaccine you have been given, if boosters come, and that's a big IF right now as the current vaccines are so effective, then it might be beneficial to get a different type of vaccine (this could also be the protein based Novavax vaccine, or CureVac or Valneva), but it's only going to be most effective to those who've had the full regimen so far, if you're avoiding the full regimen then the only way to say it is that you're an idiot. All the vaccines have high effectiveness and all prevent severe disease and death. They all have long lasting immunity that covers up to at least 6 months and likely longer. The adenovirus vector vaccines immunity may last longer than mRNA given data so far that they give a better T-Cell reaction, this is still to be proven.

There is no mixed messages coming from NIAC or the HSE, if you choose to follow messages from pundits and those unconnected to the vaccine rollout, that is on you, but there is no cutting corners on individuals health and there is no smarter thing anyone can do than to complete their dosing regimen as it puts them in the best position for the future IF boosters end up being needed (let alone their 90%+ chances of avoiding death and complications due to COVID).

brendanwalsh wrote: »

AZ contract was not renewed by the EU.
That means once this supply is done, Europe is done with adenovector vaccines.

The AZ contract for 300M doses is still in place, AZ will continue to be supplied to Europe until it is fulfilled, there will be supply of AZ forthcoming until October/November this year. The reason Ireland won't take on more is that we will have vaccinated the over 50's already. A lot of European countries will continue using the supply until the 300M contract is complete.

titan18 · 16-06-2021 11:28AM

is_that_so wrote: »

Again why would people who've taken one dose suddenly want to refuse the second dose? It really defies logic. NIAC also say No to mixing vaccines so there is no choice. Anyone who refused it the first time will be assigned an alternative later.
As for SF, the HSE will give them very short shrift if they them embroil themselves in public health decision-making. Very bad politics too.

You might think it defies logic, but I've heard of people not wanting to take the second dose and are going to try and hold out. Experiences for them are that they complied with the first threat and then saw people they know get Pfizer later on after refusing, and it's not like the government/HSE have been very consistent and haven't changed their decisions. You also have other countries recommending people get a different second dose and then Kingston Mills, Luke O'Neill going on the TV/radio recommending it.

titan18 · 16-06-2021 11:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a highly effective vaccine once the second dose is taken. No practical difference to the mRNA. But lets let a noisy uninformed self entitled group delay the whole vaccine program.

The reason we have not taken up option on further AZ vaccines is because of inconsistent supply and the long term security of supply of other options

Sure, but the perception (whether it's right or wrong) is that it's less effective than the MRNA ones, and our and European politicians have strengthened that perception over the last few months with the rhetoric against it.

is_that_so · 16-06-2021 11:32AM

titan18 wrote: »

You might think it defies logic, but I've heard of people not wanting to take the second dose and are going to try and hold out. Experiences for them are that they complied with the first threat and then saw people they know get Pfizer later on after refusing, and it's not like the government/HSE have been very consistent and haven't changed their decisions. You also have other countries recommending people get a different second dose and then Kingston Mills, Luke O'Neill going on the TV/radio recommending it.

If people refused the first dose they can be given an alternative at some point but not if they've had one. Not sure what point they are trying to prove. NIAC say no so it doesn't matter what pundits think.

titan18 · 16-06-2021 11:36AM

is_that_so wrote: »

If people refused the first dose they can be given an alternative at some point but not if they've had one. Not sure what point they are trying to prove. NIAC say no so it doesn't matter what pundits think.

Why do NIAC know more than the pundits, or other countries equivalent groups? Why is it safe in Canada or Spain or a bunch of other countries to mix but not here?

is_that_so · 16-06-2021 11:38AM

titan18 wrote: »

Why do NIAC know more than the pundits, or other countries equivalent groups? Why is it safe in Canada or Spain or a bunch of other countries to mix but not here?

I have no idea but the bottom line is we are here and we are not doing that. Less said about pundits the better!

titan18 · 16-06-2021 11:41AM

is_that_so wrote: »

I have no idea but the bottom line is we are here and we are not doing that. Less said about pundits the better!

We're not doing that now, and this is why people will hold out. NIAC and government have flip flopped on decisions multiple times over the last few months, particularly around who should get AZ. It's not a stretch that they'll change course again

astrofool · 16-06-2021 11:59AM

titan18 wrote: »

We're not doing that now, and this is why people will hold out. NIAC and government have flip flopped on decisions multiple times over the last few months, particularly around who should get AZ. It's not a stretch that they'll change course again

Just to be clear, there was no flip flopping, data changed or was made available around AZ and the trials being run for AZ that caused the recommendations to change.

It wasn't someone having a change of mind, this was all based on scientific data. This is what should happen rather than an idiot pundit mouthing off to the country based on snippets of information.

titan18 · 16-06-2021 12:08PM

astrofool wrote: »

Just to be clear, there was no flip flopping, data changed or was made available around AZ and the trials being run for AZ that caused the recommendations to change.

It wasn't someone having a change of mind, this was all based on scientific data. This is what should happen rather than an idiot pundit mouthing off to the country based on snippets of information.

Phrase it however you want, they made decisions, and then changed them, and then in some cases, looked like they changed decisions based on political pressure. There's being trials ran on mixing doses and nearly all the information so far is it's safe and in some cases can provide better responses, so same situation still applies on why people might hold off on a second AZ dose as in 2/3 weeks time, there could be data and NIAC could change their decision.

astrofool · 16-06-2021 12:38PM

titan18 wrote: »

Phrase it however you want, they made decisions, and then changed them, and then in some cases, looked like they changed decisions based on political pressure. There's being trials ran on mixing doses and nearly all the information so far is it's safe and in some cases can provide better responses, so same situation still applies on why people might hold off on a second AZ dose as in 2/3 weeks time, there could be data and NIAC could change their decision.

But you agree that the correct decisions were made at the time they were made based on the data available?

Furze99 · 16-06-2021 01:03PM

is_that_so wrote: »

That's really not going to happen. If you're on one and refuse the second, you're on our own. The quantity of AZ coming in the next month or so should be about enough to cover second doses and any extras will be returned to the EU for donation.

I've asked before and must have missed your reply. Please clarify if you've received a vaccine, one or two doses and of which make.

I ask as you seem to be very keen on promoting the AZ vaccine line.

RobMc59 · 16-06-2021 01:15PM

I've had both AZ jabs ten weeks apart.I had covid in January before the Indian variant had surfaced here in Britain,although the Kent variant had just taken off around that time.

16-06-2021 01:27PM

titan18 wrote: »

Why do NIAC know more than the pundits, or other countries equivalent groups? Why is it safe in Canada or Spain or a bunch of other countries to mix but not here?

We have secured a stable long term supply of an alternative that will get everyone vaccinated and also supply sufficient doses for any potential boosters.

Would you buy a Volkswagen when you already have an brand new Audi and only need one car?

brendanwalsh · 16-06-2021 01:58PM

Anyone young should still be apprehensive about the risk of clotting even from the second dose.

Unfortunately we just don’t have enough data on second doses.

Why take a chance on a brain aneurysm when you can just hold out and get a better second shot from Pfizer.

Old and young vulnerable were short changed by this disgraceful government.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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