Is there any country you would not go to even if you were paid to go there?

breezy1985 · 15-06-2021 05:26PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're giving far too much credit to colonialism, and the influence of Europeans. Most African colonies were administered by Africans educated by their colonial masters (since few Europeans wanted to stay in the colonies), who were left behind when the colonies were abandoned. Now, admittedly, in many cases, these educated/skilled groups were killed by insurgents or during the following civil eruptions, but these countries all had a foundation to educate further people had they wished. In any case, in most of these countries they've had sixty plus years of independence, with volunteers from religious, NGOs or private concerns, offering/selling the knowledge needed to operate a nation.

Just as the angle of exploitation is used too often to excuse the poor or corrupt choices of the ruling classes, or those governments that emerged. They made their own choices, and invited in western governments or companies, because they saw a benefit for themselves. They weren't innocent naive little doves being abused by people sneakier than them. In most cases, these countries had their own long history of abuse, corruption and exploitation of either their own people, or that of their neighbors.

It's just the same with the revisionist history that seeks to excuse the long established African slave trade that existed long before the White man came along. Pass off all responsibility on to Westerners, and that way, everyone is a blameless victim.

If I am giving colonialism too much credit you are equally giving it not enough. Ide agree that all countries have shady pasts even before colonialism but the process of empire definitely holds back and infantilises most of the locals. Yes a limited middle class emerges to help the foreign administration but they are the minority and even then their benefits are limited compared to the colonials. There's no one simple answer obviously as every country has its own unique issues but I don't see a single country that would claim colonialism as a happy part of the history

The empires also usually left these countries bankrupt and stripped on all natural wealth and are left with 2 things to keep them going in tourism and cheap labour. Ireland got lucky as the big European colony and were lucky to have a stronger base than the rest to grow thanks to this

Yurt2 · 15-06-2021 05:39PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

If I am giving colonialism too much credit you are equally giving it not enough. Ide agree that all countries have shady pasts even before colonialism but the process of empire definitely holds back and infantilises most of the locals. Yes a limited middle class emerges to help the foreign administration but they are the minority and even then their benefits are limited compared to the colonials. There's no one simple answer obviously as every country has its own unique issues but I don't see a single country that would claim colonialism as a happy part of the history

The empires also usually left these countries bankrupt and stripped on all natural wealth and are left with 2 things to keep them going in tourism and cheap labour. Ireland got lucky as the big European colony and were lucky to have a stronger base than the rest to grow thanks to this

At a certain point colonialism ceases to be a compelling explainer for why things look the way the look in certain parts of the world. It's 70 odd years in most cases since the Europeans packed up and left. In that time, South Korea went from being under the yoke of Imperial Japan, destroyed by war and poorer than almost every African country to a technological and export powerhouse; the average Singaporean is now wealthier than the average Briton. Yet we have (some) Indians trying to pin repulsive caste discrimination that holds the country back on the British. I don't buy it, and many Indians don't eithier.

India had so many infrastructural and societal advantages over China at independance (which was thoroughly exploited in the 19th and early 20th centuries), and since they decided to get their sh*t together, their economy has left India's in the dust, while haughty snub-nosed Indian incompetents at the wheel in New Dehli still try to pin the blame on John Bull.

Mister Vain · 15-06-2021 05:40PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Jaybus lads, have you not been to Budapest? A beautiful classic European capital dripping with history and class. The Danube, great hill walking and wine country not too far away.

Peoples' bar is very high if we're turning our noses up at somewhere like Hungary. Yeah Orban is a sh*te but you won't be asked to sit down for dinner with him or anything.

True but its kind of negated by the rude grumpy staff throwing receipts at you. I did meet a very nice girl there though.

breezy1985 · 15-06-2021 05:54PM

Yurt! wrote: »

At a certain point colonialism ceases to be a compelling explainer for why things look the way the look in certain parts of the world. It's 70 odd years in most cases since the Europeans packed up and left. In that time, South Korea went from being under the yoke of Imperial Japan, destroyed by war and poorer than almost every African country to a technological and export powerhouse; the average Singaporean is now wealthier than the average Briton. Yet we have (some) Indians trying to pin repulsive caste discrimination that holds the country back on the British. I don't buy it, and many Indians don't eithier.

India had so much infrastructural and societal advantages over China (which was thoroughly exploited in the 19th and early 20th centuries), and since they decided to get their sh*t together, their economy has left India's in the dust, while haughty snub-nosed Indian incompetents at the wheel in New Dehli still try to pin the blame on John Bull.

India is one where I mostly agree with you. That country and it's caste system infuriates me. Why the poor are not going full Robespierre on the upper class is baffling. I still think though that if those countries were allowed to mature uninterrupted they would not be the basket cases they are now. You keep holding up Singapore but it's an outlier and essentially a city state rather than a large country and not a good example.

I do think as an example Ireland is a good median case for how former colonies go. Im not trying to excuse the actions of the post colonial countries or let anyone off the hook but there is a shared history and pattern to these countries

15-06-2021 05:57PM

It's funny the amount of posters complaining about other nationalities being rude. Different societies, different norms. Their not rude,(well I'm sure some are) they're just not Irish, not up in your business all the time!

I was in the queue in Carrols Irish gift shop one day, behind a Finnish couple, they guy behind the counter started questioning them, as they do in there! Poor Finns didn't know what to do, looked like an interrogation room....... That's not their normal.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 15-06-2021 06:10PM

Yurt! wrote: »

At a certain point colonialism ceases to be a compelling explainer for why things look the way the look in certain parts of the world. It's 70 odd years in most cases since the Europeans packed up and left. In that time, South Korea went from being under the yoke of Imperial Japan, destroyed by war and poorer than almost every African country to a technological and export powerhouse; the average Singaporean is now wealthier than the average Briton. Yet we have (some) Indians trying to pin repulsive caste discrimination that holds the country back on the British. I don't buy it, and many Indians don't eithier.

India had so many infrastructural and societal advantages over China at independance (which was thoroughly exploited in the 19th and early 20th centuries), and since they decided to get their sh*t together, their economy has left India's in the dust, while haughty snub-nosed Indian incompetents at the wheel in New Dehli still try to pin the blame on John Bull.

More equal societies seem to have an easier time of developing. That's a lot of Latin America's problem, the gap between rich and poor is so enormous that it's difficult to promote any sort of development that helps everyone.

hot buttered scones · 15-06-2021 06:28PM

That depends. How much are we talking here?

Larbre34 · 15-06-2021 06:32PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Jaybus lads, have you not been to Budapest? A beautiful classic European capital dripping with history and class. The Danube, great hill walking and wine country not too far away.

Peoples' bar is very high if we're turning our noses up at somewhere like Hungary. Yeah Orban is a sh*te but you won't be asked to sit down for dinner with him or anything.

I have before yeah, lovely spot.

But that POS is a fox in the hen house of the EU. Only yesterday voted to roll back gay equality into the dark ages. Its up to the Hungarian people to elect who they want, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't suffer the consequences. Any right thinking person should be boycotting Hungary as they would any place that implements State run subjugation. You cannot separate one from the other as you suggest.

kowloon · 15-06-2021 06:35PM

UAE for me, it seems to be the most extreme example of the gap between the rich and the poor. Skyscrapers and supercars existing alongside slavery. And they seem proud of it like it's a virtue.

15-06-2021 06:57PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

If I am giving colonialism too much credit you are equally giving it not enough. Ide agree that all countries have shady pasts even before colonialism but the process of empire definitely holds back and infantilises most of the locals. Yes a limited middle class emerges to help the foreign administration but they are the minority and even then their benefits are limited compared to the colonials. There's no one simple answer obviously as every country has its own unique issues but I don't see a single country that would claim colonialism as a happy part of the history

Yes, but I didn't say that countries would view their colonial past as a positive. Colonialism was an often brutal form of conquest and occupation, along with the plantation of a very different culture... Yes, I'm well aware of that, but at the same time, I don't see it as the absolute evil that many want to make it out to be.

Just look at Africa. Before colonialism, genocide, and warfare was commonplace. The tribes did their very best to exterminate each other, and following the end of colonialism, they returned to that because colonialism had utterly failed to destroy the cultures surrounding the tribal system. You can see the same in Asia, or S.America, where the original cultures and way of life, managed to survive (somewhat) their colonial history, and retain the negatives that went before it.

You're shifting the goalposts between the first post and the second post.

The empires also usually left these countries bankrupt and stripped on all natural wealth and are left with 2 things to keep them going in tourism and cheap labour. Ireland got lucky as the big European colony and were lucky to have a stronger base than the rest to grow thanks to this

Stripped of all natural wealth? Don't make me laugh. Africa retained most of their mineral wealth after the Europeans left. Zimbabwe was a massive producer of agricultural products for export. In most cases, colonial areas were productive and kept their vast amount of resources, along with the infrastructure to exploit those resources... but what happened after independence? Destruction of that infrastructure, the murder of those skilled/educated, and a turning to communism, or whatever similar ideology that was an opposite of their past colonial masters. It was only after colonialism, with the advent of technology leading to more effective strip mining, that western companies were brought in.. at the behest of the new governments.

It's only in colonies which traditionally produced little, and were held as places for prestige, that little was left behind... but then, there was little there when they were occupied..

I get the hatred of colonialism from an Irish perspective... but what happened elsewhere was not the same as with Ireland.

15-06-2021 06:59PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Any right thinking person should be boycotting Hungary as they would any place that implements State run subjugation. You cannot separate one from the other as you suggest.

Good luck with that. In pre-Covid times, Budapest was heaving with tourists from all over Western Europe. Most were simply enjoying a beautiful city and few appeared to share your ideological concerns. I’ve no doubt that will continue when travels restrictions are finally lifted.

OMM 0000 · 15-06-2021 07:02PM

ShaneU wrote: »

North Korea

I've been there. It's worth a visit. You will have a positive impact on the locals and it's an incredibly weird but interesting experience. Also they like Ireland. Westlife are very popular there.

breezy1985 · 15-06-2021 07:08PM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've been there. It's worth a visit. You will have a positive impact on the locals and it's an incredibly weird but interesting experience. Also they like Ireland. Westlife are very popular there.

No wonder they are resistant to western culture if they have heard Westlife

Larbre34 · 15-06-2021 07:44PM

Hamachi wrote: »

Good luck with that. In pre-Covid times, Budapest was heaving with tourists from all over Western Europe. Most were simply enjoying a beautiful city and few appeared to share your ideological concerns. I’ve no doubt that will continue when travels restrictions are finally lifted.

They wouldn't necessarily have been aware of the brewing ideological concerns at the time.

However, with the demise of people like Trump and Netanyahu and the embryonic resurgence of a progressive centrist era in Europe and America, it throws figures like Orban and his pals, Lukashenko, Putin and the Polish leadership into sharp relief.

You may be right about tourist numbers, but there will be no shortage of pressure on Orban from European governmental and non-governmental interests for his rights policies going forward.

15-06-2021 07:47PM

Turkey

Kewreeuss · 15-06-2021 07:49PM

SupaCat95 wrote: »

There are two things you should never see made, Comedy and Kebabs!
Thank you folks I am here until the weekend.

Where are you off to?

15-06-2021 08:08PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

They wouldn't necessarily have been aware of the brewing ideological concerns at the time.

However, with the demise of people like Trump and Netanyahu and the embryonic resurgence of a progressive centrist era in Europe and America, it throws figures like Orban and his pals, Lukashenko, Putin and the Polish leadership into sharp relief.

You may be right about tourist numbers, but there will be no shortage of pressure on Orban from European governmental and non-governmental interests for his rights policies going forward.

Politics does not come into most people's mind when they wish to visit a country, unless it will impede their personal travels.
Hungary is a lovely country to visit and I wouldn't see a reason not to visit because of their current government.

Larbre34 · 15-06-2021 08:09PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Politics does not come into most people's mind when they wish to visit a country, unless it will impede their personal travels.
Hungary is a lovely country to visit and I wouldn't see a reason not to visit because of their current government.

I hear Myanmar is nice this time of year.

15-06-2021 08:11PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

I hear Myanmar is nice this time of year.

There's a big difference in travelling to a country undergoing unrest (which would obvs impede personal travel) and a country where you may not agree with the current government.

mrcheez · 15-06-2021 08:14PM

Dante wrote: »

Saudi Arabia or Iran.

I lived in Saudi and was hijacked on a plane to Iran ...but ironically I would pay to go to both again

Israel is prob one I wouldn't go to though

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 15-06-2021 08:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

. You can see the same in Asia, or S.America, where the original cultures and way of life, managed to survive (somewhat) their colonial history, and retain the negatives that went before it.

That would depend on where in South America. Argentina, for instance, is almost entirely culturally European, as is much of Colombia.

Blaming "tribal conflicts" for South America's problems just seems like ill informed racist drivel.

Mister Vain · 15-06-2021 08:31PM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've been there. It's worth a visit. You will have a positive impact on the locals and it's an incredibly weird but interesting experience. Also they like Ireland. Westlife are very popular there.

I hear Kim is fond of the Irish whiskey too. I'd say its an interesting place to visit alright, as long as you don't go stealing any posters.

Larbre34 · 15-06-2021 08:43PM

bubblypop wrote: »

There's a big difference in travelling to a country undergoing unrest (which would obvs impede personal travel) and a country where you may not agree with the current government.

Give it a few weeks.

And no, frankly, there isn't much difference. Governments come and go, but State sanctioned deliberately designed anti-gay measures is something on a different level. People who shrug at this stuff needn't complain when it comes to their turn for a bit of the auld persecution.

15-06-2021 08:47PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Give it a few weeks.

And no, frankly, there isn't much difference. Governments come and go, but State sanctioned deliberately designed anti-gay measures is something on a different level. People who shrug at this stuff needn't complain when it comes to their turn for a bit of the auld persecution.

People who go on holidays are, in general, not worried about this stuff. My gay friend went to Budapest with their partner, general politics didn't worry them.

breezy1985 · 15-06-2021 09:01PM

bubblypop wrote: »

There's a big difference in travelling to a country undergoing unrest (which would obvs impede personal travel) and a country where you may not agree with the current government.

That's assuming you are a straight man. Plenty of countries that have no civil unrest are hostile to both gay people or women or both. If I was gay I wouldn't risk Orbans Hungary. It might turn out fine but if all you have to go off is what you read before you book you will probably pick somewhere else

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-06-2021 09:05PM

Genre.. wrote: »

Papa New Guinea

Anything I read or hear about the place is bad

Went there for work for a week about 8 years ago.

It doesn't have much going for it.
Proverty, high crime etc.
I was in the capital and biggest city, Port Moresby, and there was nothing there for a visitor to do to be honest.

Also, BO is a huge problem, with all due respect, the people literally stink.

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-06-2021 09:08PM

At the time of going to PNG a colleague and I had a choice, one had to go to PNG, the other the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

We tossed a coin for it.
At the time Port Moresby and Kinshasa were something like 2 and 3 on the worst cities to visit in the world list after Mogadishu.

15-06-2021 09:17PM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've been there. It's worth a visit. You will have a positive impact on the locals and it's an incredibly weird but interesting experience. Also they like Ireland. Westlife are very popular there.

I've been tempted. There's tours going from China, all under the guidance of Chinese governmental services, but... N.Korea seems more than a little too unpredictable. It would be very interesting though.

15-06-2021 09:20PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

That would depend on where in South America. Argentina, for instance, is almost entirely culturally European, as is much of Colombia.

Blaming "tribal conflicts" for South America's problems just seems like ill informed racist drivel.

Sure it would be, since I didn't make any such claim... I was pointing to Africa when talking about tribal behavior. South America's problems are varied, and I wouldn't be inclined to dumb them down to something as simplistic as that. Nor would I for any continent/country for that matter.

Rikand · 15-06-2021 09:29PM

All of Africa
All of Central and South America
And probably a few of the ex-soviet countries too. Particularly the ones near the middle east.
Oh yeah, and the Middle East too
And some of those east Asian island type nations. Indonesia, for example would hold no appeal to me

Is there any country you would not go to even if you were paid to go there?

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