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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Comments

  • #5462
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    charlie14 wrote: »
    So neither you or your loved ones are fully vaccinated and you believe there is zero chance of you or them becoming infected.
    May be an idea for you to check your facts. Pfizer don`t have a 2 dose regime just for the crack like.

    I didn't say any of that.

    I'm able to do a risk v reward assessment, as are my loved ones.


  • #5463
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Graham wrote: »
    I guess you could pretend risk-management is a new thing if you really wanted to.

    Oh please.. I and many others here were talking about the lack of proportionality in the responses from NPHET/Government as soon as the above became clear last year. Risk management and the balancing of the myriad of factors involved in running a country, economy and society has been painfully absent since we discovered our actual (extremely low level of risk/exposure from the virus.

    But as I said the other day, Covid as ANY sort of significant risk to public health is done - especially as we're vaccinating healthy people in their 40s at this stage.


  • #5464
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Graham wrote: »
    I'm going to borrow a definition here that might help you:


    Source: Haschek and Rousseaux's Handbook of Toxicologic Pathology

    Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    I fully understand what risk management is and it's not just the narrow definition you describe either. There are many different form of risk management, from safety to economic risk factors.

    Why don't you try read my responses and reply to what I am saying instead of some narrative where you think I'm am disagreeing with everything you say.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #5465
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    I didn't say any of that.

    I'm able to do a risk v reward assessment, as are my loved ones.

    You said you and your loved ones were vaccinated, but omitted to mention not fully, so you and your loved ones are still at risk of catching this virus and transmitting it to others.
    Have you included that in your risk v reward assessment or is it just that you could not care less ?


  • #5466
    theballz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭theballz


    Things might be bad now, but there's reason to be hopeful.

    The end of WWI saw the roaring 20's. Of course this was followed by The Great Depression and WWII.

    Despite it's drawbacks, we all know the fifties and sixties were pretty kickass time for (at least until Vietnam ramped up). The counterculture of the late 60's and early 70's were met with a lot of the same hatred and disgust that the youth of today are being met with.

    But following the sh*tshow that was Vietnam, Watergate, Nixon, and then Carter, we had a pretty sweet time in the 80's and 90's, and I'd even argue 2000's, despite the issues over in the Persian Gulf.

    So now we've entered a time that's clearly a downturn, and like I said, it's really not that different from the issues the older generation had with the hippies back in the late 60's/early 70's.

    So if past is prologue, I'd say we're due 10-30 years of prosperity and general good times. And don's say "yeah but the Internet..." or "yeah but social media changed everything..." etc... Every era mentioned had something unique about it that would have made people think they were special. It's just a recency bias.

    Look forward to better times on the world stage boards.


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  • #5467
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    charlie14 wrote: »
    That hotel indoor dining is confined to residents I would have though makes it self explanatory

    Self explanatory how?

    The risk was deemed acceptable by the government who agree that it makes sense economically. That's all good by me. But don't try and hide that decision behind basing all decisions on science.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #5468
    _Godot_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 900 ✭✭✭_Godot_


    I'm sorry if this is not the place to ask but...

    The funeral of y sister is this saturday in a church near Coolmine station. I'm fully vaccinated, but I live in Drogheda. Would I be in any trouble if I travel by train to get to the funeral? I still have the card they filled in at the gp when I got my vaccines.


  • #5469
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    _Godot_ wrote: »
    I'm sorry if this is not the place to ask but...

    The funeral of y sister is this saturday in a church near Coolmine station. I'm fully vaccinated, but I live in Drogheda. Would I be in any trouble if I travel by train to get to the funeral? I still have the card they filled in at the gp when I got my vaccines.

    If you mean are you allowed travel, then yes you are - funerals were always on the permitted list even under 2km restrictions

    Your only limiting factor will be the numbers allowed to attend the funeral itself.

    PS: Sorry for your loss.


  • #5470
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    _Godot_ wrote: »
    I'm sorry if this is not the place to ask but...

    The funeral of y sister is this saturday in a church near Coolmine station. I'm fully vaccinated, but I live in Drogheda. Would I be in any trouble if I travel by train to get to the funeral? I still have the card they filled in at the gp when I got my vaccines.

    Vaccine or not, nobody is going to say anything to you for going to your sisters funeral. Very sorry for your loss.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #5471
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,241 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Graham wrote: »
    I guess you could pretend risk-management is a new thing if you really wanted to.

    It is pretty ridiculous to claim 'risk management' when looking at the tiny risks associated with to outdoor dining and the fact it is only now allowed.


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  • #5472
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    JRant wrote: »
    Self explanatory how?

    The risk was deemed acceptable by the government who agree that it makes sense economically. That's all good by me. But don't try and hide that decision behind basing all decisions on science.

    The number of residents in a hotel are a know and dining times for breakfast and dinner are at specific times. General indoor dining our outdoor dining will not be.


  • #5473
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Blocking very safe activities is not following science, it close to doing the opposite. It is like having an problem with road traffic deaths and banning all cars and claiming vindication and 'following science' because traffic deaths lowered. Can you please elaborate on this, as it doesn't seem to help your case at all? The Irish windy climate should make dining out even safer than many places on earth, I believe Irish businesses would be a lot stricter in following guidance than many other places, Ireland has quite young demographics with a dispersed population, and health resources don't really come into it when there is no evidence of outdoor dining spreading it. To not see the political reasons you'd have to have your head in the sand. Did you miss the demands to open wet pubs because food serving establishments opened last year? Do you really expect that if outdoor dining was allowed for the last 3 months there wouldn't have been consistent pressure before now for indoor dining to open?
    Again, have you not been paying attention? Ireland was one of the last developed countries, who wasn't run by an idiot, to move towards mask wearing, they refuse to accept antigen testing, and they are moving at a snails pace to allow free movement of vaccinated travelers. Sure, all countries face these dilemmas but the Irish advisors have moved at a snails pace from their original thinking. Leaving this until last but I don't know why you keep mentioning Florida and Texas. You clearly need to read my posts again, I never claimed those states as being ones to follow, I specifically pointed to them as being poor examples due to manipulating data.
    This discussion isn't about the extremes of Irish extreme lockdown and the Florida free for all, there is a very large area in between - implying the choice is only between them shows a weak argument.

    OK you've gone way off base with a lot of that and therefore going to ignore a large proportion. The simplistic analogy re. banning cars etc really doesn't make any sense. So not going there either there as such discussion inevitably descends into why the selected analogy is / isn't comparable and so on ad infinitum.

    But to be honest I've no idea why you've continued to drag up outdoor dining into what was a discussion regarding another posters comparison here to the US specifically Florida and Texas. The fact that you are now arguing for something which is now taking place makes any such discussion completely retrospective and I'm not particularly interested in rehashing old tired arguments about Ireland pandemic response being the worsest / slowest and we should do what everyone else is doing regardless of the fact that we have successfully managed to maintain one of the lowest case and death rate compared to nearest European neighbours.

    But no I'm not suggesting a choice of only extremes - which if you read my last comment correctly should be abundantly clear. But no matter.


  • #5474
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    charlie14 wrote: »
    The number of residents in a hotel are a know and dining times for breakfast and dinner are at specific times. General indoor dining our outdoor dining will not be.

    I suppose its all being transferred on bits of paper to the mainframe?


  • #5475
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    It is pretty ridiculous to claim 'risk management' when looking at the tiny risks associated with to outdoor dining and the fact it is only now allowed.

    It might shock you to learn outdoor dining does not happen in isolation.

    Tens of thousands of directly and indirectly connected employees working indoors are required to support the activity.


  • #5476
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    charlie14 wrote: »
    The number of residents in a hotel are a know and dining times for breakfast and dinner are at specific times. General indoor dining our outdoor dining will not be.

    It's okay to admit this decision was made with economic interest at heart, nothing wrong with that at all.

    As an aside, the same argument can be made for indoor and outdoor dining elsewhere. People still need to book in so the numbers are well controlled and each table gets a specific timeframe.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #5477
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    Graham wrote: »
    It might shock you to learn outdoor dining does not happen in isolation.

    Tens of thousands of directly and indirectly connected employees working indoors are required to support the activity.

    A bit like supermarkets? Remind us of the clusters there please?


  • #5478
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JRant wrote: »
    Self explanatory how?

    The risk was deemed acceptable by the government who agree that it makes sense economically. That's all good by me. But don't try and hide that decision behind basing all decisions on science.

    I find it very strange how 15 months in people still can’t get a very basic concept. It is not and never has been about the risk associated with individual measure. It’s about identifying the level of reduction in contacts in society as a whole required to achieve the desired outcome and then based on the risk and priority of various activities implement measures to achieve the desired outcome. So high risk low priority activities are first to go and low risk high priority activities last. However some high risk high priority activities cannot be restricted. The single most effective measure to reduce spread would have been to shut the hospitals. But that can’t be done, so you mitigate where possible and to somewhat balance the overall risk, low risk low priority activities sometimes get sacrificed.

    So permitting hotel stays received a slightly higher priority. The consequence of this was hotel restaurants became a higher priority than non hotel as guests needed to eat. Not a lower risk, a higher priority. The argument to be had is on the priorities and the overall pace of reduction in restrictions. That you can eat in a hotel restaurant and not in a regular restaurant is not down to the risk of eating in one versus the other.


  • #5479
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    I suppose its all being transferred on bits of paper to the mainframe?

    It doesn't need to be. If or where there's contract tracing carried - then that information should be available.


  • #5480
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    gozunda wrote: »
    It doesn't need to be. If or where there's contract tracing carried - then that information should be available.

    Thats been the case in Ireland?


  • #5481
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Graham wrote: »
    It might shock you to learn outdoor dining does not happen in isolation.

    Tens of thousands of directly and indirectly connected employees working indoors are required to support the activity.

    Tens of thousands that were out of work for the last 6 months. Have these people no say in how their lives are being put on hold? Shouldn't people be given the option to pursue meaningful work for a wage if they so choose?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • #5482
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I find it very strange how 15 months in people still can’t get a very basic concept. It is not and never has been about the risk associated with individual measure. It’s about identifying the level of reduction in contacts in society as a whole required to achieve the desired outcome and then based on the risk and priority of various activities implement measures to achieve the desired outcome. So high risk low priority activities are first to go and low risk high priority activities last. However some high risk high priority activities cannot be restricted. The single most effective measure to reduce spread would have been to shut the hospitals. But that can’t be done, so you mitigate where possible and to somewhat balance the overall risk, low risk low priority activities sometimes get sacrificed.

    So permitting hotel stays received a slightly higher priority. The consequence of this was hotel restaurants became a higher priority than non hotel as guests needed to eat. Not a lower risk, a higher priority. The argument to be had is on the priorities and the overall pace of reduction in restrictions. That you can eat in a hotel restaurant and not in a regular restaurant is not down to the risk of eating in one versus the other.

    Why is it some people can't grasp the idea that just because someone disagrees with their veiws on certain issues doesn't automatically mean they can't understand basic concepts?

    What you've described makes sense in a purely academic environment. However, who decides what is high risk and low priority? If you've been out of work this past 6 months it is absolutely a high priority for you to get back. If, on the other hand, your job hasn't been and will never be affected by any of the measures you propose then you will have a completely different outlook on the entire scenario.

    It is nowhere near as straight forward as you are making out here.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #5483
    Dickie10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    when do people think the green light might be given for nightclubs? miss a night clubbing


  • #5484
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    when do people think the green light might be given for nightclubs? miss a night clubbing

    Honestly, next year at some stage would be my guess.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #5485
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    when do people think the green light might be given for nightclubs? miss a night clubbing

    'Enjoyed' one last weekend in a country where the authorities were considering slowing rollbacks of 'restrictions' due to surging cases in some other country. There's probably a link that said I was never there, as they are closed :rolleyes:

    I'm not sure that there will be a club open in Ireland for months and months.


  • #5486
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    Thats been the case in Ireland?

    Process is broadly outlined here

    https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/testing/source-investigation-for-covid-19.html

    It doesn't call out specific contact lists per se but does detail that:
    We may contact people who were in the same place or at the same event as the person with COVID-19.

    Obviously a restaurant with reservations or a hotel with bookings will have contact details of all customers.


  • #5487
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    gozunda wrote: »
    Process is broadly outlined here

    https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/testing/source-investigation-for-covid-19.html

    It doesn't call out specific contact lists per se but does detail that:



    Obviously a restaurant with reservations or a hotel with bookings will have contact details of all customers.

    And did it happen?


  • #5488
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    do people still have to quarantine arriving from the UK? I have a journey scheduled from the UK this week but I have no covid certificate. Will this deny me entry?


  • #5489
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    And did it happen?

    You mean does it happen? Ie contract tracers identifying contacts in settings with outbreaks etc.

    It would appear so.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40058144.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-infections-from-funeral-led-to-a-third-of-one-restaurant-s-staff-self-isolating-1.4369704


  • #5490
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    A bit like supermarkets? Remind us of the clusters there please?

    Sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to there Sobit.


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  • #5491
    franciscanpunk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭franciscanpunk


    JRant wrote: »
    Self explanatory how?

    The risk was deemed acceptable by the government who agree that it makes sense economically. That's all good by me. But don't try and hide that decision behind basing all decisions on science.

    I think Leo actually this decision, hotels indoor hospitality, was operational rather than scientific.

    Harsh on other businesses, but can see the logic


This discussion has been closed.
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