M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

KrisW1001 · 01-06-2021 4:06pm

Here's where that sign used to be:
https://goo.gl/maps/4L27SS5fW4rX42RS7

... looking at that, I have no idea how they ended up where they ended up, but luckily it seems there was no serious loss. It would appear that there was nobody in the passenger seat, and as the airbag didn’t deploy it wasn’t a fast impact either.

Isambard · 01-06-2021 4:45pm

hard to see how they hit that.

Limerick74 · 01-06-2021 4:46pm

The car hit that sign at pace. It took out the passive poles and the sign sheared through the windscreen and roof.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 01-06-2021 6:52pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

Collision on N20 at Waterloo Junction

The driver was seriously very lucky !

Sam Russell · 01-06-2021 7:44pm

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

The driver was seriously very lucky !

Or seriously unlucky. To be lucky, it would need to miss the vehicle altogether.

Chris_5339762 · 01-06-2021 9:24pm

My guess is that someone pulled out, they swerved to avoid T-boning them and ended up inside the sign like that. Hope they are ok.

Why is this junction so dangerous? It shouldn't be.

KrisW1001 · 02-06-2021 10:01am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

My guess is that someone pulled out, they swerved to avoid T-boning them and ended up inside the sign like that. Hope they are ok.

I’m sure they are okay by the look of the car - but they’ll be pretty shaken.

I don’t think it’s caused by joining traffic. There’s so little run-up to that sign that you literally have to aim for it to hit it, and if a car was joining from the right, the driver would have had plenty of time to see it and hit the brakes without needing to leave the road (and the joining car would have had a better view too). I think it was most likely due to late lane-changing.

There are three lanes here, one for left, one for straight on, one for turning right. The damaged car had to be in the left one, or it could never have got close enough to the sign. My guess is that the damaged car had already pulled left at the start of the slip-road, when another car in the straight-on lane ahead of it suddenly swerved into that left lane too, forcing the damaged car to steer sharply out of the way.

On this pair of junctions particularly, there’s a strong case for an 80 km/h speed limit. And enforcement cameras. It’ll be at 80 once the motorway is built anyway.

Sam Russell · 02-06-2021 10:04am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I’m sure they are okay by the look of the car - but they’ll be pretty shaken.

I don’t think it’s caused by joining traffic. There’s so little run-up to that sign that you literally have to aim for it to hit it, and if a car was joining from the right, the driver would have had plenty of time to see it and hit the brakes without needing to leave the road (and the joining car would have had a better view too). I think it was most likely due to late lane-changing.

There are three lanes here, one for left, one for straight on, one for turning right. The damaged car had to be in the left one, or it could never have got close enough to the sign. My guess is that the damaged car had already pulled left at the start of the slip-road, when another car in the straight-on lane ahead of it suddenly swerved into that left lane too, forcing the damaged car to steer sharply out of the way.

On this pair of junctions particularly, there’s a strong case for an 80 km/h speed limit. And enforcement cameras. It’ll be at 80 once the motorway is built anyway.

Or the damaged car had on oncoming vehicle pull out in front of them (on the wrong side of the road) because it was avoiding a car turning left that suddenly slowed down.

Or something else.

Isambard · 02-06-2021 10:05am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

It’ll be at 80 once the motorway is built anyway.

doesn't follow, Cork generally leave former N roads at 100 km/h and apply 120km/h to suitable non Motorway dual carriageways

betistuc · 02-06-2021 11:47am

It's hard to tell from those photos whether the passenger air bag deployed or not. If it did, it was probably shredded immediately by the sign slicing through the dash.
Do we know for sure that airbags are going to work? There's no way of testing them that I'm aware of. I know of three cases where they didn't deploy after quite heavy collisions and I'm one of them ( 07 Megane Cabrio). Apologies for going off topiic

KrisW1001 · 02-06-2021 12:04pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Or the damaged car had on oncoming vehicle pull out in front of them (on the wrong side of the road) because it was avoiding a car turning left that suddenly slowed down.

It’s very unlikely to have been an oncoming car: there's plastic-pole barriers down the centre-line for a few hundred metres around this junction.

They’ve tried their best to make this junction less dangerous, but without the space to build something bigger, there’s nothing more that can be done. I think staggered crossroad junctions like this one are actually more dangerous than straight ones.

Cookiemunster · 02-06-2021 12:15pm

It's also possible that this was a simple driver error issue, with no other vehicle involved. Distracted from the road by something, maybe looking at a phone or playing with the entertainment system and veered off the road.

major interest · 02-06-2021 12:59pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

It’s very unlikely to have been an oncoming car: there's plastic-pole barriers down the centre-line for a few hundred metres around this junction.

They’ve tried their best to make this junction less dangerous, but without the space to build something bigger, there’s nothing more that can be done. I think staggered crossroad junctions like this one are actually more dangerous than straight ones.

Am I right in saying that if the M20 is built and assuming the online option is chosen, these junctions will no longer exist and any traffic joining/leaving would do so at an enhanced junction at Blarney?

Chris_5339762 · 02-06-2021 1:31pm

The last set of plans had the N20 here becoming M20 online, with parallel roads for all the local junctions. I don't think there was a Waterloo junction planned, or anything close.

KrisW1001 · 02-06-2021 2:53pm

major interest wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if the M20 is built and assuming the online option is chosen, these junctions will no longer exist and any traffic joining/leaving would do so at an enhanced junction at Blarney?

Yes, this junction would be in the “online upgrade” part of the scheme if that option is chosen. I think the online option is the most likely, but you never know…

There is currently no direct junction planned for Waterloo on M20, so access will most likely be via a parallel local road (by upgrading of the existing Waterloo Rd perhaps) between the junctions to the North and South of the current one.

The Eastern arm of this junction leads straight to a level crossing on the Dublin-Cork rail line (just 200 m away), so that is very unlikely to be left as it is during the works.

Isambard · 02-06-2021 3:52pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Yes, this junction would be in the “online upgrade” part of the scheme if that option is chosen. I think the online option is the most likely, but you never know…

There is currently no direct junction planned for Waterloo on M20, so access will most likely be via a parallel local road (by upgrading of the existing Waterloo Rd perhaps) between the junctions to the North and South of the current one.

The Eastern arm of this junction leads straight to a level crossing on the Dublin-Cork rail line (just 200 m away), so that is very unlikely to be left as it is during the works.

I don't recall a level crossing there, the line is on a huge embankment with a tunnel for the road.

KrisW1001 · 02-06-2021 4:29pm

Isambard wrote: »

I don't recall a level crossing there, the line is on a huge embankment with a tunnel for the road.

Sorry, you’re right. I'm thinking of a completely different line!

blindsider · 06-06-2021 11:32pm

I listened to the Minister for CAB (Cabbage Lettuce & Bicycles) on RTE 1 at lunchtime. He ducked and dived, bobbed and weaved, and every other bloody move in the book, but he avoided the question "Is the M20 cancelled?"

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11313717

Starts at 0:33:30

You know how this will end...

If they cancel the M20, I will never vote Green, for any reason. Shocking naivete by them - not deserving of a seat anywhere - except in a car stuck in traffic jam on the Cork- Limerick rd!!

prunudo · 07-06-2021 8:15am

On this occasion, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. His ducking and diving might be so as not to offend more militant members of his party or core followers. He must know deep down that certain projects, such as the m20 are a necessity. Besides, as I have said before, you can't just not improve infrastructure, ev's and public transport needs these roads as much as anyone else.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 07-06-2021 8:32am

blindsider wrote: »

I listened to the Minister for CAB (Cabbage & Bicycles) on RTE 1 at lunchtime. He ducked and dived, bobbed and weaved, and every other bloody move in the book, but he avoided the question "Is the M20 cancelled?"

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11313717

Starts at 0:33:30

You know how this will end...

If they cancel the M20, I will never vote Green, for any reason. Shocking naivete by them - not deserving of a seat anywhere - escept in a car stuck in traffic jam on the Cork- Limerick rd!!

The green party lead buy Ryan who suggested bringing wolf's into the country side. Wanted people in a village. To share cars . Green party don't care about people only their green agenda.
A bunch of wasters in that party.
When Ryan of green party was forming a government he said M20 would not be built during his time in government.
So not surprised by any the green fairy party says with its fairy policies who most of green party are on cloud 9 .
After last time green party messed up this country people didn't learn . It's the younger generation that voted them in this time.
Green party idea if more trains and buses won't work between cork and Limerick.anyone with half a brain knows that except green party because they only care about there agenda and not people using n20 daily.

Eamon Ryan showed great example in beginning by driving to dail in his vw transporter van with its diesel engine and parking up before getting to dail and cycling in there rest of way pretending he cycles all the way . What a guy .

Cookiemunster · 07-06-2021 9:14am

Lads, Ryan or the Greens won't be cancelling the M20. You only have to look at what happened with the Coonagh to Knockalisheen Road in Limerick to see that at the end of the day he'll do as he's told by FF and FG.

cgcsb · 07-06-2021 10:12am

The m20 will happen. There's a safety and connectivity argument for it. Other schemes like widening the motorways around Dublin or building the Galway ring road are most likely canned at this stage though

Sam Russell · 07-06-2021 10:22am

I find it depressing listening to Eamonn Ryan - he is away with the fairies.

He cannot see the reality of the wood for all the trees he is hugging.

He is OK with the outside drinking with the patio heaters burning fossil fuels to heat the atmosphere, but not with the M20.

He is OK with trying to revive the long dead railway from a small town in the west through long abandoned countryside to connect with another small town [Tuam to Athenry], but not in favour of the proposed greenway that would use the same closed line while CIE wait for the return of the long departed emigrants to people the abandoned countryside in which they once lived.

He thinks it is OK to drive a new railway connection from Cork to Limerick over a new route (instead of upgrading the current Limerick to Limerick Junction line), but no way is he pushing the replacement of the dangerous N20 with the M20.

He is silent of the most Green project currently before the Gov - the Metrolink. He should be making weekly announcements on the progress of this. What is happening for the Green Line upgrade from Charlemont to Sandyford - silence.

I think he needs to realise that he has one chance to bring Green policies into reality, and time is passing quickly. Only three years left of this Government - with huge budget problems ahead.

He will not be part of the next Government - that is certain.

blindsider · 07-06-2021 11:54am

If you haven't listened to the clip in #7249, please do. I've just listened to it again and it's very concerning.

Ryan might be happy to delay it for another 5 yrs in the hope that it will continue to be long-fingered - or he will be able to say "I did my best to stop it!"

AugustusMinimus · 07-06-2021 12:05pm

The Green Party has become a mix of luddites and social justice warriors. As a collective hive they are toxic.

The Luddite side basically want to just about halt any development.

- If a road is planned the Green Party will object and suggest rail
- If rail is planned the Green Party will object and suggest cycling infrastructure.

It’s a never ending cycle to block development. In Cork they’re objecting to just about every high rise which makes no sense. They’re the party who should be most pro high rise development. It’s ridiculous.

Pete_Cavan · 07-06-2021 1:30pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

- If a road is planned the Green Party will object and suggest rail
- If rail is planned the Green Party will object and suggest cycling infrastructure.

And in the case of the WRC north of Athenry, when cycle infrastructure is suggested they object and suggest rail.

AugustusMinimus · 07-06-2021 1:47pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

And in the case of the WRC north of Athenry, when cycle infrastructure is suggested they object and suggest rail.

They always have an alternative which ends up stalling projects with nothing ever getting done. I’m not sure what their game is.

They are objecting already at the suggestion in Cork to run light rail along the old Blackrock Rail line.

Aontachtoir · 07-06-2021 3:59pm

I'm quite surprised by the strong defence being given to the M20 in this thread, given the opposition which many posters seem to have to the Galway bypass. The Greens strongly oppose both projects for the same, consistent reasons.

If building a proper bypass for Galway alongside heavy investment in PT is not part of a sustainable solution because it is "20th century thinking", will inevitably and only lead to urban sprawl and rapid, unsustainable traffic increases, and could be easily replaced with a couple of buses and bus lanes, why are the Greens wrong to say the M20 should be cancelled for the same reasons?

Scrapping the road would mean not investing well over one billion euro in our road network, which could be diverted elsewhere. I am surprised not to see more posts supporting the Greens' calls to put that money into more bus services between rural towns, faster trains between Cork and Limerick, and traffic calming measures in accident spots on the N20 to further reduce traffic capacity and disincentivise driving, given the support I have seen on this board for those options in Galway. Surely if an anti-car, pro-PT plan works in County Galway it should work in Cork and Limerick too?

biddyearley · 07-06-2021 4:01pm

A full motorway.

THat the second and third cities are not connected is a disgrace, especially when you consider a dump like Tuam has motorway access.

I always wondered-was the lack of a motorway some FF revenge against Cork for Jack Lynch and the Arms Trial?

munchkin_utd · 07-06-2021 4:19pm

biddyearley wrote: »

A full motorway.

THat the second and third cities are not connected is a disgrace, especially when you consider a dump like Tuam has motorway access.

I always wondered-was the lack of a motorway some FF revenge against Cork for Jack Lynch and the Arms Trial?

the M18/M17 does not connect Tuam to the outside world, it connects the south west of Ireland (including Cork) with the north west of Ireland

If you have ever done a long distance journey up the west coast you'd more than appreciate the road, and more than appreciate that what it replaced was a much much worse road, and in more need of replacement, than the N20.

The N20 is in need of improvement, but its far from the worst national primary road in the country

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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