M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

KrisW1001

Single carriageway probably won’t cut it for N24 east of the M8. The traffic counters west and east of Clonmel were already at 12,000 AADT in 2019, which is the lower limit for recommending a 2+2. (2020/2021 data is a write-off due to effects of Covid)

As far as I’ve read, this eastern section will be 2+2 for the entire length: it has consistently higher traffic than the segment west of M8.

cantalach

L1011 wrote: »

There is zero chance of any form of 2+1 being built again. Doesn't save enough money and the merge sections are lethal due to poor driver behaviour.

I agree that 2+1 merges feel lethal but is there any hard evidence that they actually are lethal? This road type is very common in Sweden, and they seem to know what they're doing up there when it comes to road safety. They have the lowest fatality rate in the EU by a huge margin over the second lowest.

Limerick74

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Protected road have the same rules as motorway. No Tractors, mopeds, cyclists or L drivers.. These drivers are supposed to use the old road network. As well you are much less likely to have slow drivers on them for a number of reasons. Most slower drivers are older people. Generally they are completing shorter journeys to access nearby towns or villages they tend not to be makeing journeys that necessitate them accessing these types of roads. As well many will avoid these roads and stay on the older road network even if travelling the equivalent of a section or two of it.

Limerick- Waterford would require dual carriageway for first 15-20 km from Limerick, then high class single carrigeway to beyond Carrick-on-Suir and Dual carrigeway for last 10-15 KM into Waterford

Protected roads do not have the same restrictions as a motorway. They prevent direct access but do not automatically restrict tractors, learner drivers or even cyclists. The minister needs to issue regulations to restrict any class or type of vehicle from a protected road. There hasn’t been a protected road built here yet, just a few going through planning process. Still a work in progress but a good option for non motorway new roads.

cgcsb

KrisW1001 wrote: »

There’s zero justification for any further motorway sections after N20 is built.

Well there are port access motorways, the M28, M11 etc and the M40 North, sincethe M20 traffic will need to have access to the rest of the country's motorway network when it gets to the southern end. Otherwise you're just dumping a load of trucks into Cork City that have no intention of going to Cork City. But of course these are very short sections of road.

KrisW1001

cantalach wrote: »

I agree that 2+1 merges feel lethal but is there any hard evidence that they actually are lethal? This road type is very common in Sweden, and they seem to know what they're doing up there when it comes to road safety. They have the lowest fatality rate in the EU by a huge margin over the second lowest.

NRA (as was) did a study on the Mallow section of N20, with cameras and an incident line.

They found a high increase in traffic incidents at the 2-into-1 merge points, and more speeding at the end of these sections as drivers tried to "get ahead" before the single section arrived.

Leaving aside different attitudes to law between the two countries, there's a difference in application. These roads are used in Sweden on long isolated stretches with hardly any junctions - when you consider that one of the benefits cited was that the central barrier prevents animals (particularly moose) forming a crossing point over the road you’ll get an idea of the sort of traffic levels. They were built to improve the safety of rural roads, rather than add capacity. Just look at the sample image on Wikipedia:

In Ireland, 2+1 was used for busier road sections both as a way of adding capacity to existing single-carriageway roads on the cheap and for safety. Both sections chosen had traffic counts that were already at the upper end of a single carriageway.

It would be good to see the 2+1 return purely on safety grounds on some of the newer single-carriageway schemes, but I think opinion has turned against it here, even though the type is still a current design standard and could theoretically be used for new builds.

Isambard

KrisW1001 wrote: »

NRA (as was) did a study on the Mallow section of N20, with cameras and an incident line.

They found a high increase in traffic incidents at the 2-into-1 merge points, and more speeding at the end of these sections as drivers tried to "get ahead" before the single section arrived.

Leaving aside different attitudes to law between the two countries, there's a difference in application. These roads are used in Sweden on long isolated stretches with hardly any junctions - when you consider that one of the benefits cited was that the central barrier prevents animals (particularly moose) forming a crossing point over the road you’ll get an idea of the sort of traffic levels. They were built to improve the safety of rural roads, rather than add capacity. Just look at the sample image on Wikipedia:

In Ireland, 2+1 was used for busier road sections both as a way of adding capacity to existing single-carriageway roads on the cheap and for safety. Both sections chosen had traffic counts that were already at the upper end of a single carriageway.

It would be good to see the 2+1 return purely on safety grounds on some of the newer single-carriageway schemes, but I think opinion has turned against it here, even though the type is still a current design standard and could theoretically be used for new builds.

They made no sense at all, on the very same stretch of road near Mallow there are ordinary roads with passing lanes which do the exact same job, and some of the 2 lane sections of 2+1 are downhill which is really daft
The Mallow 2+1 was entirely rebuilt a couple of years ago with all new barriers, with just a little more cost, it could have been made 2+2 at that stage.

Chris_5339762

I remember hearing on here somewhere that 2+2 was only 10% more expensive than 2+1. In that case we should be building many, many kilometers of 2+2.

Of course M20 (and M40 north), M11 section of Oilgate - Rosslare and M28 should be motorway. Most other stuff can be 2+2.

AugustusMinimus

N20 2+1 section is the most annoying section of road I can think of

- 2 lane sections are much too short
- People will drive at 80kph on the single lane section and will suddenly jump to 110kph on the 2 lane sections. Just crazy driving behaviour.
- people attempting to stop you overtaking them just before the road goes back to 1 lane

This class of road should in no way be used on sections with such high traffic.


On the protected roads. What is the point of these if there is zero compliance to keep tractors and the like off them. It’s crazy the amount of agricultural machinery, cyclists and even pedestrians that I’ve seen on motorways in this country.

blanch152

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

N20 2+1 section is the most annoying section of road I can think of

- 2 lane sections are much too short
- People will drive at 80kph on the single lane section and will suddenly jump to 110kph on the 2 lane sections. Just crazy driving behaviour.
- people attempting to stop you overtaking them just before the road goes back to 1 lane

This class of road should in no way be used on sections with such high traffic.


On the protected roads. What is the point of these if there is zero compliance to keep tractors and the like off them. It’s crazy the amount of agricultural machinery, cyclists and even pedestrians that I’ve seen on motorways in this country.

I don't know about the bit in bold. I see more often situations of people overtaking dangerously just before the road goes back to 1 lane.

Cookiemunster

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't know about the bit in bold. I see more often situations of people overtaking dangerously just before the road goes back to 1 lane.

I see this fairly regularly on normal dual carriageways/motorways. You close in on a car you're traveling at least 10kmph faster than, but when you overtake you find that they're suddenly traveling at the same speed as you. You accelerate to finally get past them, then drop back to the speed you were traveling and they then drop away into the distance. Some people just have a strange aversion to being overtaken.

KrisW1001

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

On the protected roads. What is the point of these if there is zero compliance to keep tractors and the like off them. It’s crazy the amount of agricultural machinery, cyclists and even pedestrians that I’ve seen on motorways in this country.

Despite a persistent urban myth to the contrary, tractors are permitted on motorways, and always have been, so long as they meet the requirements that apply to all vehicles using a motorway (i.e., capable of maintaining a speed of 50 km/h).

Here is the earliest statement of what kind of vehicles may use a motorway:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1977/si/396/made/en/print - Note there is no mention of agricultural machinery in it.

AugustusMinimus

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Despite a persistent urban myth to the contrary, tractors are permitted on motorways, and always have been, so long as they meet the requirements that apply to all vehicles using a motorway (i.e., capable of maintaining a speed of 50 km/h).

Here is the earliest statement of what kind of vehicles may use a motorway:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1977/si/396/made/en/print - Note there is no mention of agricultural machinery in it.

I’m familiar with the rules. A lot of tractors and the likes of harvesters are not capable of 50kph.

AugustusMinimus

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't know about the bit in bold. I see more often situations of people overtaking dangerously just before the road goes back to 1 lane.

As Cookiemunster has said, I’ve often encountered people doing 90kph who will speed up in an attempt to stop you overtaking them. Very rarely encounter this in the UK.

L1011

Extremely common here, as are people doing about that speed who will continue to do it (possibly overtaking people who they will then delay) through 50/60 zones.

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Despite a persistent urban myth to the contrary, tractors are permitted on motorways, and always have been, so long as they meet the requirements that apply to all vehicles using a motorway (i.e., capable of maintaining a speed of 50 km/h).

Here is the earliest statement of what kind of vehicles may use a motorway:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1977/si/396/made/en/print - Note there is no mention of agricultural machinery in it.

You can't use agridiesel at those speeds legally. I seriously doubt most tractors on motorways are on road diesel.

Isambard

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't know about the bit in bold. I see more often situations of people overtaking dangerously just before the road goes back to 1 lane.

i'd be 100% in agreement with AugustusMinimus. Not at all rare beaviour.

cantalach

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Leaving aside different attitudes to law between the two countries, there's a difference in application. These roads are used in Sweden on long isolated stretches with hardly any junctions [...]

Sure, no quibble with that. And to be honest, while I wasn't aware of the difference in application in Sweden, I used to live in Australia where some states use 2+1 in low traffic stretches. There is always a limit to the usefulness of comparisons between countries.

cantalach

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I see this fairly regularly on normal dual carriageways/motorways. You close in on a car you're traveling at least 10kmph faster than, but when you overtake you find that they're suddenly traveling at the same speed as you.

Yeah, it's especially obvious when you're on cruise control because you know you haven't changed your speed. Drives me nuts.


I've also had the baffling experience a few times on the quieter sections of the M8 of passing somebody without them accelerating, only for them to come blazing past me a few km up the road, and then me pass them again after another few km. All the while, I'm going at a constant speed. I've often wondered if their dramatic speed variation is due to distraction by phone calls or messages. Or perhaps 'Thunderstruck' comes on the radio.

cgcsb

Even on a motorway I've often been stuck behind 2 cars travelling side by side for many kilometres without either one having any intention of changing speed.

hans aus dtschl

cantalach wrote: »

Yeah, it's especially obvious when you're on cruise control because you know you haven't changed your speed. Drives me nuts.


I've also had the baffling experience a few times on the quieter sections of the M8 of passing somebody without them accelerating, only for them to come blazing past me a few km up the road, and then me pass them again after another few km. All the while, I'm going at a constant speed. I've often wondered if their dramatic speed variation is due to distraction by phone calls or messages. Or perhaps 'Thunderstruck' comes on the radio.

Eating. I've seen people slow down to eat and speed up again.
I also once saw a fella at around Cashel reading the newspaper, which was spread right across his steering wheel and dash, early in the morning. He came past me (him >120kmh) a short while later. Slowed down to read the news, then accelerated to pass the plebs who obey the law.

Sam Russell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Eating. I've seen people slow down to eat and speed up again.
I also once saw a fella at around Cashel reading the newspaper, which was spread right across his steering wheel and dash, early in the morning. He came past me (him >120kmh) a short while later. Slowed down to read the news, then accelerated to pass the plebs who obey the law.

Well, as long as he was reading the news from a newspaper rather than a mobile phone then that's alright then.

AugustusMinimus

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, as long as he was reading the news from a newspaper rather than a mobile phone then that's alright then.

Depends who’s holding the mobile?

Chris_5339762

Spare a thought for the man who I saw walking his dog around the Dunkettle interchange roundabout the other day and you'll see what we are dealing with.

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0705/1233133-limerick-road-action/

Cookiemunster

Huff, puff and loud noises. Nobody knows the chosen route yet and nobody know which 40m wide strip of the 300m wide chosen corridor will then be chosen for the final route.

And the most likely option South of Mallow is an online upgrade as per the previous plans

markodaly

The project team hopes to reveal its preferred option - which could involve a rail project - by October.

After this, detailed plans will be submitted to An Bord Pleanála. An oral hearing will take place at some point in the future but, ultimately, the issue is likely to be decided in the courts

Like many infrastructure projects nowadays, the courts decide it..... unfortunately

markodaly

So it appears there is a Facebook group who is against the M20 here.
https://www.facebook.com/No-to-M20-Navy-Route-104006191554724

Are they going to be taking their tips from the M28 steering group?

Bass Reeves

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And the most likely option South of Mallow is an online upgrade as per the previous plans

Unlikely it will be on-line. If it is it can only be DC. You have to leave an alternative to motorway especially if you want to toll it.

AugustusMinimus

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Unlikely it will be on-line. If it is it can only be DC. You have to leave an alternative to motorway especially if you want to toll it.

The original plan was an online build between Blarney and Rathduff with auxiliary roads being for local access. North of Rathduff to Mallow was a completely new build.

KrisW1001

I think it’ll be an online upgrade here, anyway, not the navy route. It would be very hard to justify a scheme that ends up with two high-capacity roads in such close proximity to each other, even without the Green party involved in government.

Really, the big political problem I see with Navy is what would then happen to the former N20: this is a very expensive road, built to a very high standard, and effectively giving it to Cork County Council for free to use as another massive collector/distributor isn’t just against current transport policy, it would be against most voters’ idea of fairness. (Cork already does very well from tapping the national roads budget for what is actually the city’s own infrastructure needs as it is)

Even voters in Cork might consider it a bad idea with a bit of thinking ahead. After all, Cork being handed something so expensive would also damage the chances of getting the N40 North Ring Road funded.

Also, who says the road is going to be a motorway south of Mallow at all? After all, the eastern (N25) and western (N22) approaches to Cork city look for all the world like motorways with their wide carriageways and grade-separated junctions and 120km/h limits, but they are still a regular roads in law, so no need for an alternative route.

I think the most likely is an Type 1 DC (looks like a motorway), but under a new “Expressway” legislation that is expected to be used for future 2+2s, rather than the full motorway restrictions.

Chris_5339762

His objection to the acquisition of properties through compulsory purchase is the lack of choice or options afforded to the land owners involved.

"There is nothing democratic about CPOs," he said. "You have unelected people come to your house and say: go, move, shift - and that's basically it."

He describes as "soul destroying" the stress of waiting to know if his family home will be acquired through CPO for the second time.

I feel desperately sorry for that man in the article, who may face the CPO of his home for the second time in his life. But that is the definition of a CPO, its a compulsory purchase, no choice for the owner.