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Were the early 90's the last "real" Ireland

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    #122
    Hamachi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Before arriving in Ireland 15 years ago I used to think my country was very americanized. Ireland was long gone and unfortunately many other countries are becoming similar losing their language and culture.

    Not sure I agree with this. I spend a lot of time in the US with work. Ireland and Irish people are distinctly different. Sure, there is a common language and consumerism. However, unique cultural elements like the GAA and Irish dancing are in rude good health.

    The language is a different story. Personally, I’d love to see Ireland as a truly bi-lingual society with people equally proficient in English and Irish. The gaelscoil movement has gained traction, churning out thousands of kids every year with decent levels of Irish. I hope this movement continues to gain ground and revitalize the language.

    I think you’ve mentioned before that you’re Brazilian? Despite the fact that you guys speak Portuguese, I’ve always felt that Brazilians are far closer personality-wise to Americans than Irish people. Hope you don’t mind me saying this, but my experience of Brazilians is that they are open, talkative, but quite superficial. This is pretty close to the personality type of many Americans.


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    #123
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,297 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Hamachi wrote: »
    Not sure I agree with this. I spend a lot of time in the US with work. Ireland and Irish people are distinctly different. Sure, there is a common language and consumerism. However, unique cultural elements like the GAA and Irish dancing are in rude good health.
    .

    Irish dancing has become more like the US child beauty pageants rather than an actual test of skill like when I was young. When you see girls wearing make up and wigs it is a real turn off. My daughter won't be going near it.


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    #124
    Hamachi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Irish dancing has become more like the US child beauty pageants rather than an actual test of skill like when I was young. When you see girls wearing make up and wigs it is a real turn off. My daughter won't be going near it.

    That’s your decision. Many parents do not agree.

    If my daughter has any interest, I’ll certainly encourage her to participate. It’s also great to see young boys and men getting involved. The all male group ‘Cairde’ have been going down a treat on social media and with international audiences.

    Great to see the continued appreciation for a unique aspect of Irish culture.


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    #125
    Gradius
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Gradius


    It's possible to objectively compare different time periods, it doesn't have to be rose-tinted. I can appreciate things from time periods I never experienced.

    Someone mentioned "hopeful", and that's something that seems sorely lacking these days. It seemed as though opportunity was ahead of the country in the 90's, despite all the drawbacks. Possibilities. Not related to age at all, just an overall feeling of upward trajectory across the board.

    Now there appears to be a deep negative vibe about the place as to the future and where we're heading, whether you're talking to a teenager or an old fart.

    Oh well!


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    #126
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    I've seen 5 decades,
    70s happened, I was a child ,didnt really notice
    80s happened, I was a teenager, lots of bad stuff, Thatcher, Falklands, Hunger strikes ,Chernobyl, mass unemployment and emigration,
    90s happened, I was in my twenties, had job, car ,money in my pocket, lot less misery in the country,
    00-10s happened , I'm old, lots of good stuff at the start, 08-12 ,very bad times, worst times I'd ever had, been better since but suspect things are going to go downwards in the next few years


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    #127
    Purple is a Fruit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 202 ✭✭Purple is a Fruit


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    What culture?
    The living in thatched cottages and riding a donkey to Mass culture? Because nobody wants to do that anymore, the country isn't a theme park for tourists.

    The GAA are doing better than most sporting organisations and the language is being propped up artificially because nobody wants to speak that either. And you can't cajole or force people to speak Irish if they have no use for it.
    That's a heck of a lot of putting words in their mouth - seems to be a thing on this thread.

    Now now, don't be dishonest - numerous people do want to speak Irish, but nobody suggested anything about cajoling or forcing people to. ;)


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    #128
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,783 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Purple is a Fruit wrote: »
    That's a heck of a lot of putting words in their mouth - seems to be a thing on this thread.

    Now now, don't be dishonest - numerous people do want to speak Irish, but nobody suggested anything about cajoling or forcing people to. ;)

    Ah shur I'd love to speak it but *insert excuse here*


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    #129
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,297 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Hamachi wrote: »
    That’s your decision. Many parents do not agree.

    If my daughter has any interest, I’ll certainly encourage her to participate. It’s also great to see young boys and men getting involved. The all male group ‘Cairde’ have been going down a treat on social media and with international audiences.

    Great to see the continued appreciation for a unique aspect of Irish culture.

    When you are being beaten because your opponent is wearing a wig and make up rather than because they are a better dancer then that it not for my family. I am not into sexualising my children.
    If they got rid of the pageant element I would have no problem getting into it. I did it when I was young.

    Just because many parents do not agree does not make it right. Many US parents put their children into beauty pageants. I wouldn't. I personally think it should be illegal to sexualise young girls like that.


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    #130
    crooked cockney villain
    Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    I find it a bit strange that we have sort of frozen in time. As in, if you were to walk around Dublin in 1975 vs 1995 the changes would be staggering. Hairstyles, cars designs, clothes, the city had to my knowledge a bit of a tired, run down vibe to it.

    Yet if you were to walk around Dublin in 2000 vs now, 21 years later, would it really look much different? Clothes are pretty much the same (albeit more people wearing high end brands, nobody in 2000 would dream of dropping 700 quid on a stupid Canada Goose body warmer), young lads today have different hairstyles might be another, but it ends there really. Aside from smartphones in people's hands, could you really see the difference? I was watching the X Files there the other week, from 1991 or so, and aside from the fact it wasn't high definition there's not much in it that you wouldn't think it was filmed last week, aside from the oversized mobile phones. Compare that to watching, say Only Fools and Horses from the 80's, the clothes, cars, the decor etc it really seems like a different era.


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    #131
    Purple is a Fruit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 202 ✭✭Purple is a Fruit


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Ah shur I'd love to speak it but *insert excuse here*
    Yep, there are those folk too! :)
    crooked cockney villain wrote: »
    I find it a bit strange that we have sort of frozen in time. As in, if you were to walk around Dublin in 1975 vs 1995 the changes would be staggering. Hairstyles, cars designs, clothes, the city had to my knowledge a bit of a tired, run down vibe to it.

    Yet if you were to walk around Dublin in 2000 vs now, 21 years later, would it really look much different? Clothes are pretty much the same (albeit more people wearing high end brands, nobody in 2000 would dream of dropping 700 quid on a stupid Canada Goose body warmer), young lads today have different hairstyles might be another, but it ends there really. Aside from smartphones in people's hands, could you really see the difference? I was watching the X Files there the other week, from 1991 or so, and aside from the fact it wasn't high definition there's not much in it that you wouldn't think it was filmed last week, aside from the oversized mobile phones. Compare that to watching, say Only Fools and Horses from the 80's, the clothes, cars, the decor etc it really seems like a different era.
    Totally. There have been drastic changes in technology obviously, political outlooks and quality of life... but when it comes to what you see and hear (clothes, design, music/musical subcultures) there's not much distinction. Like, different car designs used to be so distinctive - some iconic - now they're fairly uniform.


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    #132
    crooked cockney villain
    Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    Purple is a Fruit wrote: »
    when it comes to what you see and hear (clothes, design, music/musical subcultures) .

    Actually that is one that is different now. You don't see half as many goths/ rocker types as you did at the turn of the century. That subculture really seems to have disappeared.


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    #133
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    crooked cockney villain wrote: »
    ...
    Yet if you were to walk around Dublin in 2000 vs now, 21 years later, would it really look much different? Clothes are pretty much the same (albeit more people wearing high end brands, .....

    Looks far more similar to other European cities now than it did back in 2000. Cafe culture, far more multicultural. More people on bikes, Far more image conscious, both in fashion but also fitness etc. The city itself has changed a lot, lots of different buildings.


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    #134
    Hamachi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    Looks far more similar to other European cities now than it did back in 2000. Cafe culture, far more multicultural. More people on bikes, Far more image conscious, both in fashion but also fitness etc. The city itself has changed a lot, lots of different buildings.

    Yes. There’s little enough to distinguish Dublin city center from peer cities in the UK and on the continent these days. I enjoyed the more rough-and-ready city back in the early 00s. Everybody seemed a lot more carefree and out to have fun.

    These days, the city is populated by a substantial amount of poseurs droning on about coffee and wondering where to get the best avocado on toast. A pretty tedious, homogenized urban tribe.


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    #135
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Hamachi wrote: »
    Yes. There’s little enough to distinguish Dublin city center from peer cities in the UK and on the continent these days. I enjoyed the more rough-and-ready city back in the early 00s. Everybody seemed a lot more carefree and out to have fun.

    These days, the city is populated by a substantial amount of poseurs droning on about coffee and wondering where to get the best avocado on toast. A pretty tedious, homogenized urban tribe.

    Haven't been to city centre Dublin since 2018, was full of skangers off their faces holding empty coffee cups


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    #136
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,295 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Summer 1990 was good in fairness, great time to be alive.


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    #137
    Hamachi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Haven't been to city centre Dublin since 2018, was full of skangers off their faces holding empty coffee cups

    Yeah, it’s pretty clear you know nothing about the place.


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    #138
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Hamachi wrote: »
    I think you’ve mentioned before that you’re Brazilian? Despite the fact that you guys speak Portuguese, I’ve always felt that Brazilians are far closer personality-wise to Americans than Irish people. Hope you don’t mind me saying this, but my experience of Brazilians is that they are open, talkative, but quite superficial. This is pretty close to the personality type of many Americans.

    Nearly nothing in common as we are Southern Europeans culturally. One example for that is that so many men are in jail for killing the wives after discovering an adultery, while in the USA this is more acceptable. Worse thing in Brazil is being called a "corno" (or "cornuto" in Italian) that mean a cuckold. All rest of Latin America have this kind of thing. But again, country got very americanized recently, but still less than Ireland.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo


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    #139
    shockframe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭shockframe


    Early 90s was a bit grim.

    Things improved big time in the mid 90s. Better TV/Music. GAA on the TV more. Better English Football and Champions League would soar. The 3D Era of gaming taking off with the Playstation. Internet not quite there but a welcome addition.

    Wouldn't go down the 'better in my day' route. Pretty sure every teenager would say the same about their era.

    Still great and not so great things about now. Same as it ever was.


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    #140
    Hamachi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Nearly nothing in common as we are Southern Europeans culturally. One example for that is that so many men are in jail for killing the wives after discovering an adultery, while in the USA this is more acceptable. Worse thing in Brazil is being called a "corno" (or "cornuto" in Italian) that mean a cuckold. All rest of Latin America have this kind of thing. But again, country got very americanized recently, but still less than Ireland.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo

    Fair enough. I’ll take your word for it.

    I’m not sure the reaction to adultery is a great example of cultural differentiation though. It’s not exactly celebrated or deemed acceptable, regardless if you’re North American, Irish or from anywhere else.


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    #141
    Purple is a Fruit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 202 ✭✭Purple is a Fruit


    Hamachi wrote: »
    Yeah, it’s pretty clear you know nothing about the place.
    I lived in Dublin in the mid 2000s. Loved it. My perception of it now though is that it's much rougher.


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    #142
    Purple is a Fruit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 202 ✭✭Purple is a Fruit


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Nearly nothing in common as we are Southern Europeans culturally. One example for that is that so many men are in jail for killing the wives after discovering an adultery, while in the USA this is more acceptable. Worse thing in Brazil is being called a "corno" (or "cornuto" in Italian) that mean a cuckold.
    Ah here...


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    #143
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Purple is a Fruit wrote: »
    I lived in Dublin in the mid 2000s. Loved it. My perception of it now though is that it's much rougher.

    The Luas at least is a freak show. O'Connell Street and similar are line the seedier parts of some European cities. But with a lot less cops.


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    #144
    jj880
    Registered Users Posts: 4,298 ✭✭✭jj880


    Late 90s for me. Turned 15 in 1996. First time in a night club after junior cert. The start of about 10 great years before social media and the "my house has gone up x amount in 6 months" tosser club was established.


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    #145
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    crooked cockney villain wrote: »
    Actually that is one that is different now. You don't see half as many goths/ rocker types as you did at the turn of the century. That subculture really seems to have disappeared.

    Good point.
    I think youth subcultures have disappeared really.

    I've spoken to people not that old that were mods/punks. Then you had grunge/rave. Skaterkids, goths, emos


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    #146
    crooked cockney villain
    Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Good point.
    I think youth subcultures have disappeared really.

    I've spoken to people not that old that were mods/punks. Then you had grunge/rave. Skaterkids, goths, emos

    I've watched that documentary on RTE My Tribe and the subcultures from days gone by strike you as oddballs.

    I'm 36 and the only subculture I knew of was goths and rockers really. Were ravers really a subculture as such? From my experience most working class youth, myself included, were ravers to varying degrees of interest- subculture sort of implies outside the mainstream.

    Funny thing I noticed in England was ravers are from every socioeconomic background. In Ireland, while there might be a handful from richer areas, the bulk were working class.


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    #147
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Ireland is a more diverse modern country since the 90s,
    Since the 90s the power of the Church has faded away apart from the fact most schools are still owned by the church
    Diverse means people from many country's are living here
    Media has changed people have acess to hundreds of TV channels sky TV and the Internet
    We don't seem to have Irish pop stars anymore
    The 90s had Enya the corrs etc I think every one over 30 tends to think music, TV etc was better when I was 18 or 20
    The 90s was the time of PlayStation or Xbox consoles becoming popular
    Games started to have more realistic characters and 3d graphics
    Games were longer and more complex with interesting story's
    Ireland was a big market for ps2 eg no of consoles sold per 1000 population
    I think the 90s was maybe the last decade before computers took over music
    Eg most music is now made on pcs using software


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    #148
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Good point.
    I think youth subcultures have disappeared really.

    I've spoken to people not that old that were mods/punks. Then you had grunge/rave. Skaterkids, goths, emos

    What do depressed kids do these days? Is there any outlet for them?


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    #149
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Good point.
    I think youth subcultures have disappeared really.

    I've spoken to people not that old that were mods/punks. Then you had grunge/rave. Skaterkids, goths, emos

    Sub cultures these days are things like fitness & sports, DJ music, Rap, Gaming, social media influencers, vlogging, media creation, skating, etc.

    Its hard to recognize them as the same, as its a different generation.


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    #150
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There is a lot of music creation, you just don't see it as its done through social media, not through the mainstream.


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    #151
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    crooked cockney villain wrote: »
    I've watched that documentary on RTE My Tribe and the subcultures from days gone by strike you as oddballs.

    I'm 36 and the only subculture I knew of was goths and rockers really. Were ravers really a subculture as such? From my experience most working class youth, myself included, were ravers to varying degrees of interest- subculture sort of implies outside the mainstream.

    Funny thing I noticed in England was ravers are from every socioeconomic background. In Ireland, while there might be a handful from richer areas, the bulk were working class.

    I'm not sure exactly what defines a subculture but Ravers had their own type of music, clothes, hairstlyes, accessories, lifestyle. You could recognize them on the street.

    If you think about the subcultures of the 2nd half of 20th century. You had mods, rockers, hippies, punks, teddy boys, new romantics, punks, stoners. ravers, goths, grunge, emos.
    I'm sure Im missing some.

    Emos seems to be the last one.

    It's definitely disappeared or else isnt recognizable anymore.

    Someone said to me on college campuses everyone looks the same now, whereas before you could recognize different "tribes".

    As regards the "real Ireland", we're definitely much more cosmopolitan now, we're influenced by many cultures of many countries.

    I'm in my 30s and growing up I knew people in Kerry who ate potatoes with every meal.
    Some people ate bacon and cabbage almost every day.
    The only sport they watched was GAA.
    The only wine I saw was "Blue Nun', the only coffee was instant like Nescafe.
    They never travelled outside Ireland.
    Clergy and the Church in general were held in high reference, like they really were God's representative on earth.

    Dublins extremely multicultural now, every coffee shop is staffed by Brazilians, Pakistanis, Eastern Europeans etc
    An african taxi driver told me he arrived maybe around 99 or 2000 and if he saw another black guy on the street hed wave at him cos they were so rare.

    People didnt care too much about material goods. Fashion wasnt really a thing. I think lots of people lived very simple lives. Lots of bangers on the roads.
    I used to see a guy bringing milk to the creamery on a donkey and cart. Im not kidding.

    The cities may have been different but rural Ireland was very insular and parochial.

    I think like with everything there was good and bad. Drugs didnt exist outside cities, now theyre in every village in Ireland.

    I think people are much more broadminded, educated, well travelled now.

    Young people in general now strike me as much more mature these days. Teenagers nowdays can converse about sexism, misogyny, and various other social issues whereas I was just into drinking and smoking hash. Twitter and social medias are great platforms for discussing social issues, obviously they have downsides too.
    Also we have access to much more media. in bed on my phone I can read articles from every country in the world but as a kid we drove to the village to pick up the paper
    Teenagers are the children of the generation which benefitted from free education, cheap travel etc, so its not a surprise theyre more worldy.


    I think community and belonging is very important for the wellbeing of society, so maybe we've lost a little bit of that, but in general I think thats one area Ireland is very strong.
    These are important human needs and can be undervalued as their worth isnt quantifiable.

    The inflexion point is sometime in the mid to late 90s when all the various forces came into effect at the same time:
    free 3rd level education, strong economy, internet, mobile phones, less emigration, more immigration, influence of church dissipates, cheap travel, satellite tv.

    There's another inflexion point in the late 00's where social media and smartphones came at the same time but obvously not as impactful.

    Free 3rd level education came in '96, unemployment was 10% in '97, 7% in '98, Nokia 3210 came in '99. Ryanair website launched in 2000. Bank of Ireland launched online banking in '97.
    You could just say a nice even 2000 was the inflexion point. The difference between 1990 and 2000 was humongous. Whereas difference between 2021 and 2000 isnt so big.

    but yeah, I agree with the original post, early 90s was last "real Ireland", for better or worse.


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