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Covid vaccines safety - thread banned users in First Post

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    I've to put you firmly in the conspiracy theorists camp, sorry about that.
    Cool dodging points and questions then.

    Pretty typical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,369 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    No idea it's too early to tell what the risk is, I'd like to see a normal sick season with no restrictions before forming an opinion as to how good or bad they are when the mutations are in full flight.

    Well nobody has died seemingly according to official stats so that's the only figure can be used.

    Fine then. No indications so far that there is anything to be concerned about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    King Mob wrote: »
    Cool dodging points and questions then.

    Pretty typical.

    That's exactly what you've been doing, add in I'm making up the dead friend story and your right up there with Jim Corr. You've a conspiracy theory in your head, fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Fine then. No indications so far that there is anything to be concerned about.

    That's not what I said, I said I'd like to see as in here in Ireland, what I'm seeing happen in other areas is making me want to look more into some qualified opinions before dismissing them.
    We've got militant provaxxers and antivaxxers, I sit somewhere in the middle looking at both sides, I am seeing some concerns but nothing to make me start chanting for either side yet.
    Circle back to me in November and I'll have a more robust opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    That's exactly what you've been doing,
    Sorry, no. I've addressed your points directly.
    add in I'm making up the dead friend story and your right up there with Jim Corr. You've a conspiracy theory in your head, fact.
    Lol Yea. Someone on the internet is lying. Far out theory that one.

    I do also explain to you why your argument is a very poor one. One example is not a very good basis to use to determine if the vaccine is safe or not or if death is a likely side effect.
    Especially when you don't actually know if the vaccine is involved.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    King Mob wrote: »
    Sorry, no. I've addressed your points directly.


    Lol Yea. Someone on the internet is lying. Far out theory that one.

    I do also explain to you why your argument is a very poor one. One example is not a very good basis to use to determine if the vaccine is safe or not or if death is a likely side effect.
    Especially when you don't actually know if the vaccine is involved.

    You've made no real comment and done 0 research on the basis for the comments. It's an uneducated opinion is all i'm hearing. You refuse to even look at what we were taking about, if you came up with some details I'd have a look rather than jumping straight into it's a crank mode.

    Taking the vaccine, saying your feeling sick after it and dying all within a few hours of it is enough for me to form an opinion that it may be related as the person was healthy a few hours earlier and deemed good enough to take the jab by the local doctor that administered it.
    As I've stated it may not be related but it's highly coincidental. It's a reasonable opinion to form based on the timeframe.
    Who knows we may see that there was some vaccine related deaths like other countries yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,369 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    That's not what I said, I said I'd like to see as in here in Ireland, what I'm seeing happen in other areas is making me want to look more into some qualified opinions before dismissing them.
    We've got militant provaxxers and antivaxxers, I sit somewhere in the middle looking at both sides, I am seeing some concerns but nothing to make me start chanting for either side yet.
    Circle back to me in November and I'll have a more robust opinion.

    There's no "sides" to the science/data.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,369 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    Taking the vaccine, saying your feeling sick after it and dying all within a few hours of it is enough for me to form an opinion that it may be related as the person was healthy a few hours earlier and deemed good enough to take the jab by the local doctor that administered it.
    As I've stated it may not be related but it's highly coincidental. It's a reasonable opinion to form based on the timeframe.
    Who knows we may see that there was some vaccine related deaths like other countries yet.

    Every. single. anti-vaxx poster and "I'm just concerned about vaccines" type seems to know a healthy person who has just keeled over after a Covid jab

    And by some remarkable coincidence, they have a post history of "skepticism" about vaccines prior to this


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    There's no "sides" to the science/data.

    We're in the middle of a vaccine trial. Science/Data is far from concrete and constantly evolving. There as a host of different opinions. Just look at NPHET vs CDC vs WHO etc, all have their own opinions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    You've made no real comment and done 0 research on the basis for the comments.
    But have made comments and I do have a strong basis for the comments.
    It's an uneducated opinion is all i'm hearing. You refuse to even look at what we were taking about, if you came up with some details I'd have a look rather than jumping straight into it's a crank mode.
    Lol. You seem very confused. I didn't comment on the guy. I didn't want to discuss him as I wasn't interested in looking into him.
    You demanded my opinion on it and I explained as such and why I'm not interested in looking into him, ie, he's either a crank or is being misinterpreted by cranks.

    You've not really shown anything to indicate my hunch was incorrect.

    It seems to boil down to an argument from authority on your part.
    Taking the vaccine, saying your feeling sick after it and dying all within a few hours of it is enough for me to form an opinion that it may be related as the person was healthy a few hours earlier and deemed good enough to take the jab by the local doctor that administered it.
    As I've stated it may not be related but it's highly coincidental. It's a reasonable opinion to form based on the timeframe.
    Who knows we may see that there was some vaccine related deaths like other countries yet.
    No, sorry, that's not a reasonable conclusion to make at all.
    You have one case that you can't even show is connected to the vaccine other than a flimsy notion that cause one thing happened after another thing, the first thing was the cause.

    Again, I have many friends who've gotten the vaccine and have been fine.
    Is it now logical for me to conclude the vaccine is safe?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Every. single. anti-vaxx poster and "I'm just concerned about vaccines" type seems to know a healthy person who has just keeled over after a Covid jab

    And by some remarkable coincidence, they have a post history of "skepticism" about vaccines prior to this

    And a shocking number of them also seem to know someone who also got narcolepsy...


  • Registered Users Posts: 513 ✭✭✭ isha


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    We've never seen vaccination on this scale in this timeframe before. There have been a billion people vaccinated in four months.

    Are you suggesting that these vaccines are risky? if so, spit it out

    Yes. I am. I would have thought that was clear. Not just themselves. That is at least for the individual to make a choice. But mass vaccination at the height of a pandemic is, as it has always been known to immunologists, a risky exercise. And this is a risk at a demographic level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,369 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    isha wrote: »
    Yes. I am. I would have thought that was clear. Not just themselves. That is at least for the individual to make a choice. But mass vaccination at the height of a pandemic is, as it has always been known to immunologists, a risky exercise. And this is a risk at a demographic level.

    The individual can make a choice

    Risk is subjective, there is "risk" in drinking a glass of water.

    Are you against mass global vaccination against Covid right now? a simple yes or no should suffice


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    isha wrote: »
    Yes. I am. I would have thought that was clear. Not just themselves. That is at least for the individual to make a choice. But mass vaccination at the height of a pandemic is, as it has always been known to immunologists, a risky exercise. And this is a risk at a demographic level.
    Ok. How risky?

    You have falsely claimed that there were more adverse reaction reports for these vaccines compared to others.

    You failed to show this is the case.

    What other information do you have that the vaccines are more risky than other vaccines? Or indeed riskier than catching covid?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Every. single. anti-vaxx poster and "I'm just concerned about vaccines" type seems to know a healthy person who has just keeled over after a Covid jab

    So you think I'm lying as well, just another antivaxxer trying to bring a few more to the dark side so they can die. Yet i've had any necessary vaxes to date and will possibly take this one when I see how things play out, I've no foreign travel plans in a pandemic so no rush for a digital green certificate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    in the Seychelles 37% of new cases and 20% of hospitalisations are among people who were fully vaccinated.

    There's data that needs explaining, they're blaming everything from mixing vaccines, the weather is too warm, indian variant etc.

    If Bossche and Co are correct we may see another wave this time in the vaccinated as he's explained his opinion on what's happening there.
    It's no harm having a read of his comments as the current conversation isn't of any benefit to anyone interested in the current state of affairs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    in the Seychelles 37% of new cases and 20% of hospitalisations are among people who were fully vaccinated.

    There's data that needs explaining, they're blaming everything from mixing vaccines, the weather is too warm, indian variant etc.
    And no source for this...

    Probably because of all the awkward other facts surrounding the situation.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/14/africa/seychelles-covid-vaccination-infection-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

    Like:
    Almost none of the critical and severe cases requiring intensive care had been vaccinated, and no one who has been vaccinated has died of Covid-19.

    And this quote:
    (Sylvestre Radegonde, the minister for foreign affairs and tourism) said Thursday that only two people in the country are in intensive care.
    "The conclusion is that the vaccines are protecting the people. Those who have been vaccinated are not developing any complications," Radegonde said. "We remain confident that the vaccines -- both of them -- have helped the country. Things would have been worse."

    Also:
    To some, vaccinated people getting sick with Covid seems to suggest the vaccines aren't working. But local authorities, experts and the World Health Organization (WHO) say the Seychelles' experience is broadly in line with expectations.
    Although both vaccines have been approved by the WHO, neither vaccine is 100% effective against Covid-19 -- AstraZeneca claims a 76% efficacy against symptomatic coronavirus disease and 100% efficacy against severe or critical disease or hospitalization, while Sinopharm has an efficacy rate of 79% against symptomatic coronavirus or hospitalization, according to data from a large multi-country Phase 3 trial.
    Dr Richard Mihigo, program coordinator for vaccine preventable diseases, at WHO regional office for Africa, said Seychelles' data matched evidence Covid-19 vaccines are highly effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalization and deaths.

    You gave out to me eariler for "being uneducated" about the topic, yet you're telling me you didn't see these quotes? Did you not look for them?
    If Bossche and Co are correct we may see another wave this time in the vaccinated as he's explained his opinion on what's happening there.
    But why should we believe they are correct when they also don't produce evidence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,369 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    So you think I'm lying as well, just another antivaxxer trying to bring a few more to the dark side so they can die. Yet i've had any necessary vaxes to date and will possibly take this one when I see how things play out, I've no foreign travel plans in a pandemic so no rush for a digital green certificate.

    There's no need to play the victim card. Someone stating you are "uncertain" about Covid vaccines in a vaccines thread on the conspiracy forum is enough for me to remain skeptical about their agenda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    CNN hmmm, look it makes no odds neither of our sources explain what's happening.

    I've read though all the Bossche Q&A mainly trying to understand what he's trying to say about the Seychelles we both agree there's something happening there, our figures differ on who is or isn't in hospital.

    It's heavy going, and if your pro or anti vaxx you'll be left confused as what you should do.
    If i'm understanding him correctly, he's saying stop the mass vaccinations even though they are helping, it seems to get more complicated when you've high vaccinations rates as then the unvaccinated are at risk due to unchecked vaccinated spread, that position changed when the virus becomes vaccine resistant which he's using the Seychelles as evidence of.
    Then the unvaccinated are in a better position. They need to make sure and stay alive until the whole mutation scenario plays out which he doesn't seem to give much confidence in happening.
    As an Island nation we seem prime going by Bossche to accelerate the asymptomatic variant spread.

    Tbh after reading all that I think I'll pick up a cheap pub during the next lockdown and bolt myself up for the next year or so until it blows over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    CNN hmmm, look it makes no odds neither of our sources explain what's happening.
    No. That's a blatant dodge.

    I presented several quotes from the article that directly state what's happening.
    They took all of 2 seconds on google to find.

    Now, either you never looked into the situation past what you've been told from the conspiracy sites you're parroting from and didn't know about those quotes.

    Or...

    You did know about them, but didn't bring them up or provide a source for your figures because it would undermine your claim.

    Which is it?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    There's no need to play the victim card. Someone stating you are "uncertain" about Covid vaccines in a vaccines thread on the conspiracy forum is enough for me to remain skeptical about their agenda.

    Of course i'm uncertain, before I jump into the water I look to see there's no rocks, it's called due diligence. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions and it should be encouraged as the truth always comes out.

    I rarely post in the conspiracy forum, I just said I'd throw in the Nobel prize winner to see if it's considered a conspiracy, seems it is.

    You don't have to be spectipal and think there's a hidden agenda at play, well not with me anyway.
    You can't really discuss things like this in the vaccine forum, not sure this is the correct place either but it'll have to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    King Mob wrote: »
    And no source for this...

    Probably because of all the awkward other facts surrounding the situation.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/14/africa/seychelles-covid-vaccination-infection-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

    Like:


    And this quote:


    Also:


    You gave out to me eariler for "being uneducated" about the topic, yet you're telling me you didn't see these quotes? Did you not look for them?

    But why should we believe they are correct when they also don't produce evidence?

    Hate to break it to you but your source CNN is propaganda garbage as usual.

    Maybe try google some of the % I stated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,369 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    You can't really discuss things like this in the vaccine forum, not sure this is the correct place either but it'll have to do.

    There's a vaccine forum? if you mean thread, then it can be discussed. If someone has been banned from those threads it's a pretty big red flag.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Hate to break it to you but your source CNN is propaganda garbage as usual.
    Lol Bit hypocritical there. You're dismissing the link without looking at it.

    So what do you believe is wrong in the article?
    Did those people not make those quotes?
    Are the numbers for the effectiveness of the vaccines not accurate?

    How about these sources which say the same thing?
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/13/seychelles-most-vaccinated-nation-on-earth-but-covid-19-has-surged.html
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56992121
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-04/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge

    Are they propaganda also?
    If so, for who?

    You said that you weren't a conspiracy theorist, yet now, when you've been cornered in some untruths, you're falling back to conspiracy claims that media organisations are lying.
    Maybe try google some of the % I stated.
    I did. That's how I found that article you don't want to talk about and you're trying to run away from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    I'm not running but you've twisted something I said into a different narrative to avoid discussion.

    Again 37% of positive cases vaccinated, 20% of hospital admissions vaccinated.

    184630684-1740765216124602-3159945331397095911-n.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    I'm not running
    Yes you are. You avoided all the points in my last few posts.
    This is essentially running away. You are doing this because you cannot address the points.
    but you've twisted something I said into a different narrative to avoid discussion.

    Again 37% of positive cases vaccinated, 20% of hospital admissions vaccinated.

    Yes. Which according to the WHO and other experts, is in line with what is expected by the efficacy of the vaccines being used there.


    You are now linking to the same information that I provided and you previously, falsely claimed was "propaganda".

    Do you withdraw your false claim now that you seem to agree with the figures in the CNN article?
    Or did you not realise that because you didn't read the article before dismissing it?

    Could you also please explain what parts of the CNN article you believe are false, and explain who they are propagandising for?
    Could you also please clarify which other news sources I provided you believe are propaganda?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Your on the dodge all day, didn't bother reading anything anyone else posted now your upset all your left wing news wasn't reviewed.
    Yet you've managed to avoid discussing anything that might further the conversation to a consensus.

    So we've established your a conspiracy theorists with no faith in anything besides fake news. Expected more to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,207 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Your on the dodge all day,
    This is a lie. I've directly addressed your posts and questions. While you are not continually dodging mine.
    didn't bother reading anything anyone else posted now your upset all your left wing news wasn't reviewed.
    I'm not upset, I'm just highlighting your double standards.

    Also, lol. What does left wing have to do with anything?
    Yet you've managed to avoid discussing anything that might further the conversation to a consensus.
    Lol.
    Like for example, pointing out information that puts your claims into their proper context.
    You don't seem to want to discuss that.

    You could point out what parts of the CNN article were false.
    You could point out which of the other articles I linked to were also propaganda and false.
    You could explain the contradiction that's now arisen by you using facts and a statement that you claimed were "propaganda" in the CNN article.

    But nope, you don't want to discuss those either.
    So we've established your a conspiracy theorists with no faith in anything besides fake news. Expected more to be honest.
    Lol, what a silly claim.
    I amn't a conspiracy theorist because I'm not proposing a conspiracy theory.
    This is made even more ironic given how you then in the same sentence repeat your false claim of "fake news".


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    So anyways mister conspiracy theorist, I kept digging and stumbled across an article where Charlotte Allerton said vaccine resistant covid could develop, you don't need to look her up just trust me she's not a crank and knows what she's talking about. The company she works for hopes to have emergency use for an antiviral by the end of the year to stop covid.
    Now if a lady like her is hedging her bets that covid could become vaccine resistant it plays into the hypothesis I urged you to read earlier, the mutations will be created and spread by the vaccinated, it's the only way it can happen, the unvaccinated won't be responsible for vaccine resistance and will be the safest cohort to be in if/when it happens.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,078 ✭✭✭ Ha Long Bay


    So anyways mister conspiracy theorist, I kept digging and stumbled across an article where Charlotte Allerton said vaccine resistant covid could develop, you don't need to look her up just trust me she's not a crank and knows what she's talking about. The company she works for hopes to have emergency use for an antiviral by the end of the year to stop covid.
    Now if a lady like her is hedging her bets that covid could become vaccine resistant it plays into the hypothesis I urged you to read earlier, the mutations will be created and spread by the vaccinated, it's the only way it can happen, the unvaccinated won't be responsible for vaccine resistance and will be the safest cohort to be in if/when it happens.



    Can you provide a link to the article please?


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