Do people dislike the teaching profession because they think it's virtue signalling?

shtpEdthePlum · 14-05-2021 9:12am #1

The ultimate virtue signal is to focus your career on helping other people's tiny drunks.

The underdeveloped frontal lobe in children is the reason they're so tricky to work with (to educate, or even raise a child) and teaching requires a lot of in-depth knowledge about neurology, psychology and socioeconomic factors which are outside the understanding of those who might be parents or others involved in a child's life.

Is this inadequacy a factor in why teacher bashing is a national pastime?

14-05-2021 9:15am

No, no, that’s not right, no and no.

Wanderer78 · 14-05-2021 9:15am

id say its more the fact, people seem to think they have a harder working life than many teachers, less pay, crappier conditions, crappier pension, less time off etc etc etc

namloc1980 · 14-05-2021 9:20am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The ultimate virtue signal is to focus your career on helping other people's tiny drunks.

What are you talking about??

14-05-2021 9:30am

As above, people dislike teachers because they feel they have it harder than them in their own working lives. It's part of the human condition to thing you have it hardest yourself and it makes people feel better to be able to look at others, compare and say, 'sure, they have it easy'. There is also a resentment over the holidays.

This of course doesn't take into account that anyone can become a teacher and that most people are not willing to spend either 4 or six years on their education and end up in a job that is not well paid when you compare to what one can earn with a similar level of education.

And then there is the fact that people seem to believe that teachers are lazy and didn't want to work during the pandemic. The fact that teachers managed to come out of the pandemic, when they were one of a tiny minority who worked through it, is down to terrible leadership and poor representation from unions. I don't know a single teacher who wasn't very happy to be in work throughout the time.

14-05-2021 9:34am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id say its more the fact, people seem to think they have a harder working life than many teachers, less pay, crappier conditions, crappier pension, less time off etc etc etc

That's jealousy, if folk want the pay, conditions, pensions and time off of a teacher then they need to go get them.

Wanderer78 · 14-05-2021 9:37am

Augeo wrote: »

That's jealousy, if folk want the pay, conditions, pensions and time off of a teacher then they need to go get them.

....once again, real life isnt this simple, sometimes its just not possible to change career, particularly when normal life responsibilities exist, i.e. partner, kids, mortgage etc etc. people are just angry, this is mainly why these feelings exist

Smee_Again · 14-05-2021 9:37am

No, it's jealousy plain and simple.

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 9:37am

Deleted User wrote: »

As above, people dislike teachers because they feel they have it harder than them in their own working lives. It's part of the human condition to thing you have it hardest yourself and it makes people feel better to be able to look at others, compare and say, 'sure, they have it easy'. There is also a resentment over the holidays.

This of course doesn't take into account that anyone can become a teacher and that most people are not willing to spend either 4 or six years on their education and end up in a job that is not well paid when you compare to what one can earn with a similar level of education.

And then there is the fact that people seem to believe that teachers are lazy and didn't want to work during the pandemic. The fact that teachers managed to come out of the pandemic, when they were one of a tiny minority who worked through it, is down to terrible leadership and poor representation from unions. I don't know a single teacher who wasn't very happy to be in work throughout the time.

All good points, but there's one thing that people just can't see past IMO, and that is that three months' summer holiday is crazy, when they also get at least as much leave as everyone else the rest of the year.

Most countries have between 6 and 9 weeks' summer leave, and even at that UK child specialists worry that 6 weeks is too long to be good for children, especially the most deprived.

Long summer holidays date back to when children were needed to work on the family farm. Now it's just a complication for parents and an unfair advantage for teachers compared to the rest of the working population.

Wanderer78 · 14-05-2021 9:40am

Smee_Again wrote: »

No, it's jealousy plain and simple.

...this is far from plain and simple, its clearly obvious, most people, particularly in the private sector are working under considerably increased precariousness, than some in the public sector, but these issues are not just confined to the private sector

14-05-2021 9:42am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

........... people are just angry.........

People need to manage their emotions. There will always be people better paid than you.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

..real life isnt this simple, sometimes its just not possible to change career, .......particularly when normal life responsibilities exist, i.e. partner, kids, mortgage etc etc.......

The usual "can't do" attitude, springboard etc offer great courses, 90% state funded and loads of evening options.

Real life isn't simple but endeavour is usually rewarded, the ole can't do but b1tch and moan isn't a great strategy....... although it gets many the ole free house and scratch for life so it works for some.

Smee_Again · 14-05-2021 9:44am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...this is far from plain and simple, its clearly obvious, most people, particularly in the private sector are working under considerably increased precariousness, than some in the public sector, but these issues are not just confined to the private sector

All you're doing is explaining away the jealousy, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that people's dislike of teachers is driven by jealousy.

People think teachers have it easy, for some of the reasons you've listed, and they are jealous of that.

It is that simple.

And I'm not a teacher.

Wanderer78 · 14-05-2021 9:44am

Augeo wrote: »

People need to manage their emotions. There will always be people better paid than you.

The usual "can't do" attitude, springboard etc offer great courses, 90% state funded and loads of evening options.

Real life isn't simple but endeavour is usually rewarded, the ole can't do but b1tch and moan isn't a great strategy....... although it gets many the ole free house and scratch for life so it works for some.

...once again, changing careers isnt as simple as financing alone, if you have a couple of young kids, knee deep in mortgage debt, high stressed job with long working hours, etc etc, you may forget about going back to retrain....

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 9:45am

Smee_Again wrote: »

No, it's jealousy plain and simple.

There's a difference between jealousy and saying that something is unfair and wrong.

It's known to be bad for children to be out of school for three months, so if teachers are clinging onto their three months' holiday, it's natural for others to be suspicious about how much they really care about children's welfare in other areas too.

It's a very bad look for people whose profession is supposedly about children's wellbeing. I don't think it's just "jealousy" to point out that contradiction.

Wanderer78 · 14-05-2021 9:46am

Smee_Again wrote: »

All you're doing is explaining away the jealousy, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that people's dislike of teachers is driven by jealousy.

People think teachers have it easy, for some of the reasons you've listed, and they are jealous of that.

It is that simple.

And I'm not a teacher.

...yes some probably are jealous, but more than likely, people are just pi$$ed off and angry, as it seems like some professions such as teaching, are having an easier ride, which i dont believe at all

14-05-2021 9:47am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...once again, changing careers isnt as simple as financing alone, if you have a couple of young kids, knee deep in mortgage debt, high stressed job with long working hours, etc etc, you may forget about going back to retrain....

If you've a high stressed job you are likely paid more than teachers.
Such folk don't b1tch and moan about teachers.

Give an actual example of a job you are describing and the associated salary please.

Wanderer78 · 14-05-2021 9:48am

Augeo wrote: »

If you've a high stressed job you are likely paid more than teachers.
Such folk don't b1tch and moan about teachers.

Give an actual example of a job you are describing and the associated salary please.

really? which planet is this again?

14-05-2021 9:49am

Augeo wrote: »

If you've a high stressed job you are likely paid more than teachers.
Such folk don't b1tch and moan about teachers.

Give an actual example of a job you are describing and the associated salary please.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

really? which planet is this again?

Example please.

MrBumBum · 14-05-2021 9:51am

I'd say most people dislike teachers because they don't know how good they have it.
Work short hours for only half the year, no manual labour, inside in the winter, well paid.
But yet they are constantly looking for reasons to threaten strike action.
Voted a decade ago for new entrants to come in on a lower salary, then when they have nothing else to moan about for a while they decide they will strike because new entrants are on a lower salary.
Their behaviour during the last year has been disgraceful, whingeing at every turn when it was obvious for children's wellbeing that they needed to be in school.
Whingeing about not being high enough up the vaccine list.
Whingeing when they weren't prioritised when the vacci e rollout was amended.
Whinge whinge whinge

Smee_Again · 14-05-2021 9:52am

volchitsa wrote: »

There's a difference between jealousy and saying that something is unfair and wrong.

It's known to be bad for children to be out of school for three months, so if teachers are clinging onto their three months' holiday, it's natural for others to be suspicious about how much they really care about children's welfare in other areas too.

It's a very bad look for people whose profession is supposedly about children's wellbeing. I don't think it's just "jealousy" to point out that contradiction.

Bad how? For their education or general well being?

Hoboo · 14-05-2021 9:54am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The ultimate virtue signal is to focus your career on helping other people's tiny drunks.

The underdeveloped frontal lobe in children is the reason they're so tricky to work with (to educate, or even raise a child) and teaching requires a lot of in-depth knowledge about neurology, psychology and socioeconomic factors which are outside the understanding of those who might be parents or others involved in a child's life.

Is this inadequacy a factor in why teacher bashing is a national pastime?

This has got to be the greatest load of ****e waffle ever produced as an OP on boards. Bravo. Talk about underdeveloped frontal lobes.

Adelman of Beamfleot · 14-05-2021 9:55am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....once again, real life isnt this simple, sometimes its just not possible to change career, particularly when normal life responsibilities exist, i.e. partner, kids, mortgage etc etc. people are just angry, this is mainly why these feelings exist

it is not a new phenomenon that many regard teaching as a relatively easy number, in fact this opinion held more water in the past than it does now, so why did such angry people not become teachers in the first place?

Triangle · 14-05-2021 9:57am

Some teachers don't deserve the title.

We were told by my eldest 3rd year science teacher in the third term P/T meeting that he hadn't one experiment written up and this was a good % of his exam result. This was the first we or him had heard about it!! She hadn't checked once over the three years she was his 'teacher'.

He also had an English teacher who not only brought his grades up, but also helped mature him for the three years he had him. One of the best influences in his life.

So when people talk about teacher bashing, I don't get it. It's the lazy, self entitled ones that people usually have issues with. The gems in the system have huge respect from the people that interact with them.

Then there's the unions........ Don't think I need to say why people have no time for them.

14-05-2021 10:00am

Adelman of Beamfleot wrote: »

it is not a new phenomenon that many regard teaching as a relatively easy number, in fact this opinion held more water in the past than it does now, so why did such angry people not become teachers in the first place?

Easier to go on the housing list and get the free house in 10/15 years and live near the "ma"

Sleepy · 14-05-2021 10:02am

It's two-fold I reckon - jealousy over the amount of annual leave and perceived short working week combined with a fairly natural response to the ****e spouted by the professions union reps.

It's practically a monthly event to have the reps on the radio waves whining about "poor pay", falsely equivalating teachers to Software Engineers (while on paper they may have similar levels of education, anyone who thinks a B.A. or B.Comm is genuinely equivalent to a B.Eng is delusional imho and the difference in working hours/days would be enormous), denying that they themselves are a large part of the reason for the disparity in pay within the profession, etc. They've given the entire profession the reputation of being whingers.

Is teaching a stressful job? I'm sure it is. Is it well paid? For the hours worked and family-friendly nature of the schedule it's pretty much unbeatable. As much as they like to complain you could probably cut teachers salaries by 20% without losing too many of them to alternate careers and the difficulty young teachers face in securing permanent positions is a pretty good indicator of this: supply is higher than demand at the current level of remuneration.

I'm not teacher bashing at all here, I have many friends and family in the profession (including two that left careers that paid twice as much as they're now on for improvements to their work-life balance). I'd support an argument for an equivalent of the UK's "London bonus" for teachers working in urban schools and could certainly see the argument for some differentiation on teachers salaries based on the subjects they teach (i.e. for the payscales to recognise the higher competition in the labour market for those qualified to teach STEM subjects) but in general, I think a lot of the teacher bashing we do get is a product of their own making.

KaneToad · 14-05-2021 10:02am

I could have been a teacher. I knew their pay & conditions. I don't like the idea of standing in front of disinterested teenagers on a daily basis. I chose something else.

14-05-2021 10:04am

Sleepy wrote: »

It's two-fold I reckon - jealousy over the amount of annual leave and perceived short working week combined with a fairly natural response to the ****e spouted by the professions union reps.

It's practically a monthly event to have the reps on the radio waves whining about "poor pay", falsely equivalating teachers to Software Engineers (while on paper they may have similar levels of education, anyone who thinks a B.A. or B.Comm is genuinely equivalent to a B.Eng is delusional imho and the difference in working hours/days would be enormous), denying that they themselves are a large part of the reason for the disparity in pay within the profession, etc. They've given the entire profession the reputation of being whingers.

Is teaching a stressful job? I'm sure it is. Is it well paid? For the hours worked and family-friendly nature of the schedule it's pretty much unbeatable. As much as they like to complain you could probably cut teachers salaries by 20% without losing too many of them to alternate careers and the difficulty young teachers face in securing permanent positions is a pretty good indicator of this: supply is higher than demand at the current level of remuneration.

I'm not teacher bashing at all here, I have many friends and family in the profession (including two that left careers that paid twice as much as they're now on for improvements to their work-life balance). I'd support an argument for an equivalent of the UK's "London bonus" for teachers working in urban schools and could certainly see the argument for some differentiation on teachers salaries based on the subjects they teach (i.e. for the payscales to recognise the higher competition in the labour market for those qualified to teach STEM subjects) but in general, I think a lot of the teacher bashing we do get is a product of their own making.

Comp Sci can be a BA, or BS. Rarely a B Eng.

Normal One · 14-05-2021 10:04am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The ultimate virtue signal is to focus your career on helping other people's tiny drunks.

How dare you, they are merely tipsy!

Valhallapt · 14-05-2021 10:05am

It’s not jealousy, I wouldn’t become a teacher for all the tea in China, it’s not an easy job. It’s just that the teaching profession has a higher percentage of over paid, under worked self entitled winge bags than any other profession.

Everyone has a few people in work that are needlessly difficult, it feels like there is a concentration of them in the staff rooms.

Op is a case in point, winging why people don’t think they are awesome.

People have respect for nurses, when the COVID chips were down they got on with it, opposite is true for teachers, who invented facts to justify the prolonged closure of schools, not to paint them all with the same brush, but their threat of strikes during a pandemic shows their true colours. Totally disconnected from reality.

14-05-2021 10:25am

I don’t think the op is a teacher.

14-05-2021 10:36am

volchitsa wrote: »

All good points, but there's one thing that people just can't see past IMO, and that is that three months' summer holiday is crazy, when they also get at least as much leave as everyone else the rest of the year.

Most countries have between 6 and 9 weeks' summer leave, and even at that UK child specialists worry that 6 weeks is too long to be good for children, especially the most deprived.

Long summer holidays date back to when children were needed to work on the family farm. Now it's just a complication for parents and an unfair advantage for teachers compared to the rest of the working population.

Teachers don't get paid for summer holidays. They get paid for 9-10 months over a 12-month period.

I can't comment on secondary, but primary school children get eight weeks here for the summer and are totally done by the end of June and need the break. Trust me, if you work as teacher you would know this. It just gets to a time when they are done. All the breaks are set up for them.

People try to dress it up like the school year and holidays are designed for teachers when that's simply not true.

Making it out likes it's unfair doesn't seem realistic when everyone has the opportunity to be a teacher. It's just the way it is, and people may be fed up with their own situations but it's hardly teachers' faults.

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 10:42am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Bad how? For their education or general well being?

Both. They lose out in education, sometimes forgetting almost everything they've learned over the school year, but these days they also lose out in fitness, since they tend to be glued to their phones rather than outside as we used to be.

https://www.ecnmy.org/engage/kids-lose-long-summer-holidays-new-research-shows/

https://www.economist.com/international/2018/08/09/long-summer-holidays-are-bad-for-children-especially-the-poor

https://www.expresspharmacy.co.uk/blog/posts/are-the-summer-holidays-bad-for-your-children-s-health

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4684542/How-summer-holidays-bad-child-s-health.html

And those are mostly UK studies, based on 6 week holidays, rather than the much longer Irish ones.

If you're not a teacher, it's fair enough that you wouldn't know this, but teachers do, or should. It's their job, after all. That you haven't even heard about it shows how little interest there is in children's well-being in the Irish edcational system. That's a massive indictment of teachers.

14-05-2021 10:51am

Triangle wrote: »

Some teachers don't deserve the title.

We were told by my eldest 3rd year science teacher in the third term P/T meeting that he hadn't one experiment written up and this was a good % of his exam result. This was the first we or him had heard about it!! She hadn't checked once over the three years she was his 'teacher'.

He also had an English teacher who not only brought his grades up, but also helped mature him for the three years he had him. One of the best influences in his life.

So when people talk about teacher bashing, I don't get it. It's the lazy, self entitled ones that people usually have issues with. The gems in the system have huge respect from the people that interact with them.

Then there's the unions........ Don't think I need to say why people have no time for them.

There are lazy self entitled people in every profession. It's human nature.

suicide_circus · 14-05-2021 10:54am

Teachers complain a lot

14-05-2021 10:55am

volchitsa wrote: »

Both. They lose out in education, sometimes forgetting almost everything they've learned over the school year, but these days they also lose out in fitness, since they tend to be glued to their phones rather than outside as we used to be.

https://www.ecnmy.org/engage/kids-lose-long-summer-holidays-new-research-shows/

https://www.economist.com/international/2018/08/09/long-summer-holidays-are-bad-for-children-especially-the-poor

https://www.expresspharmacy.co.uk/blog/posts/are-the-summer-holidays-bad-for-your-children-s-health

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4684542/How-summer-holidays-bad-child-s-health.html

And those are mostly UK studies, based on 6 week holidays, rather than the much longer Irish ones.

If you're not a teacher, it's fair enough that you wouldn't know this, but teachers do, or should. It's their job, after all. That you haven't even heard about it shows how little interest there is in children's well-being in the Irish edcational system. That's a massive indictment of teachers.

Show me a study where they have drastically reduced holidays and it has had a beneficial impact on their health and education and then you have a great point.

The reality is that you can't just keep pushing kids without breaks. It doesn't work. Kids pick up after a break very quickly.

14-05-2021 10:56am

suicide_circus wrote: »

Teachers complain a lot

Unions do. What the unions say rarely reflects the opinions of teachers.

14-05-2021 10:58am

MrBumBum wrote: »

I'd say most people dislike teachers because they don't know how good they have it.
Work short hours for only half the year, no manual labour, inside in the winter, well paid.
But yet they are constantly looking for reasons to threaten strike action.
Voted a decade ago for new entrants to come in on a lower salary, then when they have nothing else to moan about for a while they decide they will strike because new entrants are on a lower salary.
Their behaviour during the last year has been disgraceful, whingeing at every turn when it was obvious for children's wellbeing that they needed to be in school.
Whingeing about not being high enough up the vaccine list.
Whingeing when they weren't prioritised when the vacci e rollout was amended.
Whinge whinge whinge

You should be a teacher then. You'd get to sit on your backside for half the year whinging all you like.

jester77 · 14-05-2021 10:58am

Half my family are teachers and I have a lot of respect for what they do. And they are poorly paid when I compare their salary to other professions given their importance to the future of our children. What gets people going is the constant moaning and complaining. You introduce a small change and they threaten to strike. In other industries change is constant and you get on with it without moaning.

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 11:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

Teachers don't get paid for summer holidays. They get paid for 9-10 months over a 12-month period.

I can't comment on secondary, but primary school children get eight weeks here for the summer and are totally done by the end of June and need the break.

Trust me, if you work as teacher you would know this. It just gets to a time when they are done. All the breaks are set up for them.

People (and kids) get used to whatever the situation is, and find change difficult. English kids manage to go on until past mid July. When I was a kid (in Northern Ireland), the secondary schools used to have school on Saturday mornings. Nobody thought anything of it.

Deleted User wrote: »

People try to dress it up like the school year and holidays are designed for teachers when that's simply not true.

No, I explained who they were designed for - to make education obligatory, it had to made possible for poorer families who would otherwise taken their children for the summer and harvest months, to help on the farm. It wasn't done for children or teachers, it was purely economic.

Why it still continues is a different question.

Deleted User wrote: »

Making it out likes it's unfair doesn't seem realistic when everyone has the opportunity to be a teacher. It's just the way it is, and people may be fed up with their own situations but it's hardly teachers' faults.

That's such a poor excuse for not changing something that's known to increase inequality in education and harm the more deprived children. If someone is a teacher and insists that schools can't possibly make a change that is in the children's interests, but is in their own interests, it's fair enough to wonder about their commitment to children's well being.

Children used to get hit, that's just the way it was. female teachers used to have to leave work when they married, that's just the way it was. FFS

iffandonlyif · 14-05-2021 11:03am

Like the Guards, there are conspicuously many mediocre teachers.

Smee_Again · 14-05-2021 11:07am

volchitsa wrote: »

Both. They lose out in education, sometimes forgetting almost everything they've learned over the school year, but these days they also lose out in fitness, since they tend to be glued to their phones rather than outside as we used to be.

https://www.ecnmy.org/engage/kids-lose-long-summer-holidays-new-research-shows/

https://www.economist.com/international/2018/08/09/long-summer-holidays-are-bad-for-children-especially-the-poor

https://www.expresspharmacy.co.uk/blog/posts/are-the-summer-holidays-bad-for-your-children-s-health

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4684542/How-summer-holidays-bad-child-s-health.html

And those are mostly UK studies, based on 6 week holidays, rather than the much longer Irish ones.

If you're not a teacher, it's fair enough that you wouldn't know this, but teachers do, or should. It's their job, after all. That you haven't even heard about it shows how little interest there is in children's well-being in the Irish edcational system. That's a massive indictment of teachers.

TBH reading those I don't blame teachers for not wanting to shorten their holidays, it seems most of the issues are economical rather than educational but it's easier to pin the blame on teachers instead of the state.

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 11:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

Show me a study where they have drastically reduced holidays and it has had a beneficial impact on their health and education and then you have a great point.

The reality is that you can't just keep pushing kids without breaks. It doesn't work. Kids pick up after a break very quickly.

LOL I'm not to go around the internet searching for figures for you. I've shown you studies that show that even at 6 weeks, harm is done to the poorer children especially.

Horse, water, drink. If you don't like the evidence, that's ok by me.

But that's the sort of attitude that gets teachers a bad reputation - you're not interested in the study and how to improve outcomes for kids, you just want to find a way to dismiss its findings because they don't suit you.

shtpEdthePlum · 14-05-2021 11:09am

MrBumBum wrote: »

I'd say most people dislike teachers because they don't know how good they have it.
Work short hours for only half the year, no manual labour, inside in the winter, well paid.
But yet they are constantly looking for reasons to threaten strike action.
Voted a decade ago for new entrants to come in on a lower salary, then when they have nothing else to moan about for a while they decide they will strike because new entrants are on a lower salary.
Their behaviour during the last year has been disgraceful, whingeing at every turn when it was obvious for children's wellbeing that they needed to be in school.

Having been a teacher, I left during the pandemic to switch to a 9 to 6 job with 30 days AL.

I can safely say that my workload, work life balance and mental health has markedly improved.

Don't laud it till you've tried it. Teaching is nightmarishly hard and takes a massive toll, holidays notwithstanding.

And the pay is shyte for the first decade!

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 11:11am

Smee_Again wrote: »

TBH reading those I don't blame teachers for not wanting to shorten their holidays, it seems most of the issues are economical rather than educational but it's easier to pin the blame on teachers instead of the state.

That's 6 weeks, not 3 months.

If Irish teachers cared about children's well being, they'd be looking to see how to mitigate the loss of educational levels that are seen after 8 weeks in primary and 12 weeks in secondary. No wonder kids are exhausted when they have to catch up on all the lost time at the start of every school year.

Thelonious Monk · 14-05-2021 11:11am

Imagine the responsibility and stress of dealing with children's educations every day? Your usual moaning idiots give out about teachers, who just want everyone else to be as miserable as they are.

14-05-2021 11:13am

volchitsa wrote: »

People (and kids) get used to whatever the situation is, and find change difficult. English kids manage to go on until past mid July. When I was a kid (in Northern Ireland), the secondary schools used to have school on Saturday mornings. Nobody thought anything of it.

No, I explained who they were designed for - to make education obligatory, it had to made possible for poorer families who would otherwise taken their children for the summer and harvest months, to help on the farm. It wasn't done for children or teachers, it was purely economic.

Why it still continues is a different question.

That's such a poor excuse for not changing something that's known to increase inequality in education and harm the more deprived children. If someone is a teacher and insists that schools can't possibly make a change that is in the children's interests, but is in their own interests, it's fair enough to wonder about their commitment to children's well being.

Children used to get hit, that's just the way it was. female teachers used to have to leave work when they married, that's just the way it was. FFS

Sounds like you know best. You've quoted one study, a blog and a Daily Mail article.

Primary kids have two extra weeks' holidays here compared to the UK. If there was a sufficient body of evidence to prove the point you are making, I'd happily cut the holidays. And I'd get paid more too which would be great!!!

In DEIS schools there are loads of programmes for disadvantaged kids in the summer - July provision and a programme for the last two weeks of August for kids in danger of falling behind. There are loads of supports in place.

blanch152 · 14-05-2021 11:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Teachers don't get paid for summer holidays. They get paid for 9-10 months over a 12-month period.

I can't comment on secondary, but primary school children get eight weeks here for the summer and are totally done by the end of June and need the break. Trust me, if you work as teacher you would know this. It just gets to a time when they are done. All the breaks are set up for them.

People try to dress it up like the school year and holidays are designed for teachers when that's simply not true.

Making it out likes it's unfair doesn't seem realistic when everyone has the opportunity to be a teacher. It's just the way it is, and people may be fed up with their own situations but it's hardly teachers' faults.

Teachers get paid a 12-month salary, nonsense to suggest they don't get paid for the summer.

If the school year was designed for children, it would be a four day week for a longer period of the year.

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 11:18am

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers get paid a 12-month salary, nonsense to suggest they don't get paid for the summer.

If the school year was designed for children, it would be a four day week for a longer period of the year.

Good points. I agree completely about the 4 day week.

There's a simple way to ascertain whether they are really paid a 9 month salary spread over 12 months: if so, then those on short term contracts aren't eligible for unemployment benefit until the beginning of the following school year. I don't know if that's the case or not, but maybe a teacher here could tell us.

14-05-2021 11:20am

volchitsa wrote: »

LOL I'm not to go around the internet searching for figures for you. I've shown you studies that show that even at 6 weeks, harm is done to the poorer children especially.

Horse, water, drink. If you don't like the evidence, that's ok by me.

But that's the sort of attitude that gets teachers a bad reputation - you're not interested in the study and how to improve outcomes for kids, you just want to find a way to dismiss its findings because they don't suit you.

I'll bow out here. Thanks for engaging.

Smee_Again · 14-05-2021 11:27am

volchitsa wrote: »

That's 6 weeks, not 3 months.

If Irish teachers cared about children's well being, they'd be looking to see how to mitigate the loss of educational levels that are seen after 8 weeks in primary and 12 weeks in secondary. No wonder kids are exhausted when they have to catch up on all the lost time at the start of every school year.

Nah, you can't make that claim because its too much of a leap. It's not a binary situation where only teachers who favour shortening the holidays care about the welfare of their students.

Teachers are employed to do a job and for the most part do that job very well. This argument of if they cared for students' well being they'd do XYZ is a load of nonsense. You highlighted that students lose physical fitness over the summer break, but there's nothing stopping parents taking the kids for a walk/run etc.

After all, if they cared about their children's welbeing...

I guess the point I'm making is that these issues aren't of the teachers making so why should they be the ones to shoulder the burden of fixing them.

And, yeah, if they cared about the children's welbeing...

14-05-2021 11:36am

Sleepy wrote: »

It's two-fold I reckon - jealousy over the amount of annual leave and perceived short working week combined with a fairly natural response to the ****e spouted by the professions union reps.

It's practically a monthly event to have the reps on the radio waves whining about "poor pay", falsely equivalating teachers to Software Engineers (while on paper they may have similar levels of education, anyone who thinks a B.A. or B.Comm is genuinely equivalent to a B.Eng is delusional imho and the difference in working hours/days would be enormous), denying that they themselves are a large part of the reason for the disparity in pay within the profession, etc. They've given the entire profession the reputation of being whingers.

Is teaching a stressful job? I'm sure it is. Is it well paid? For the hours worked and family-friendly nature of the schedule it's pretty much unbeatable. As much as they like to complain you could probably cut teachers salaries by 20% without losing too many of them to alternate careers and the difficulty young teachers face in securing permanent positions is a pretty good indicator of this: supply is higher than demand at the current level of remuneration.

I'm not teacher bashing at all here, I have many friends and family in the profession (including two that left careers that paid twice as much as they're now on for improvements to their work-life balance). I'd support an argument for an equivalent of the UK's "London bonus" for teachers working in urban schools and could certainly see the argument for some differentiation on teachers salaries based on the subjects they teach (i.e. for the payscales to recognise the higher competition in the labour market for those qualified to teach STEM subjects) but in general, I think a lot of the teacher bashing we do get is a product of their own making.

Pretty much this.

The moaning is pretty much incessant. Not just from reps but teachers I know moan about superintending exams or correcting. Having chosen to done it. When I hear the moaning I realise "Oh yeah, primary school is the last time you had less than 3 months summer holidays". They don't seem to understand (or at least concede) how amazing it is to always have a week off coming up soon. Let alone planning your ~15 days of holidays you have left after using up some to have proper time off over Christmas.

There's a glut of teachers. A majority of people I knew as a kid who had teachers for parents went into teaching. Even a few who had a choice of "better" career options. There's probably a reason for that.

Do people dislike the teaching profession because they think it's virtue signalling?

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