Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings

FintanMcluskey · 12-05-2021 10:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume you are talking about Cillian de Gascun and his position as Director of NVRL. Of course this is a fully private venture in which he personally benefits and not an extension of the UCD school of medicine

I wasn’t suggesting any conflict of interest.

He obviously knows most about the benefits of PCR tests and we’re lucky he’s on the board that advise government

Whatsisname · 12-05-2021 11:00AM

Boggles wrote: »

Tried and pull in the UK.

Greater Manchester stops care home tests over accuracy fears

But of course 'da man on the da youtube' with all the easy answers won't tell you any of that.

Vitamin D, Rapid testing, be grand - here is 12 ways to donate.

Your article, which is 5 months old btw, says it was paused in Manchester, not pulled from the UK.

LFT are regularly used in the UK and in care homes. Government guidance here. All families were advised to use them if they had kids who went back to school. You can also order a pack of 7 a day from the government website. As far as I'm aware, if you test positive on a LFT, you're advised to go get a PCR test to confirm.

12-05-2021 11:00AM

TomSweeney wrote: »

Ans what more do we know about this virus to make ridiculous mask wearing go on and on ????

I am not very familiar with this forum. Are people really allowed to reject scientific evidence? That statement about "ridiculous mask wearing" is a nonsense.

The facts have evolved on masks. They are now thought to be pretty ineffective in the outdoors, where wearing a mask is fairly redundant. They are still crucial to preventing transmission when social distancing is not possible.

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 11:03AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Understanding the different elements that affect how the virus travels through a population in different parts of the world is not shifting the goalposts...it's science, I wouldn't expect the one size fits all merchants to understand that!

Yet you are an advocate of Gupta, Bhattacharya, and Kulldorff`s one fits all approach on naturally acquired herd immunity where there is not a single shred of evidence to support it.

The contrary in fact. Anywhere that attempted the natural herd immunity "science" approach realised very quickly from their own scientific data how wrong the baseless "science" was.
Even those from their own scientific data who believed they had achieved it learned even faster how wrong they were.

Boggles · 12-05-2021 11:05AM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Your article, which is 5 months old btw, says it was paused in Manchester, not pulled from the UK.

Yes, I purposely picked it because it was pre vaccines.

The steadfast claim was "countless" lives would have "saved" - pre vaccines.

Did Greater Manchester want to end countless lives?

Is that why they pulled it?

No of course not, that would be complete bollíx.

There is certainly a place for alternative testing going forward, amazingly this should be based on data and especially accuracy and not a supermarket trying to make money.

normanoffside · 12-05-2021 11:06AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Some of NPHET’s members prefer the accuracy of the PCR test processed in the lab they are involved with.

At the end of the day maybe they are correct about the limitations of the rapid antigen tests

Are they used in any other countries I wonder?

Yes but a daily Antigen test is better and cheaper than a fortnightly PCR test. Over the course of 2 weeks while waiting for their next PCR, how many care home staff would have developed and spread Covid to their residents?

Nobody was ever asking to scrap the fortnightly PCR: just to add the Antigen as an extra level of safety.

12-05-2021 11:07AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Couple of interesting articles in the paper this morning

- Cost of rent has doubled in the last few years. Not helped by allowing investment funds buy up large amounts of stock of course, but shutting down most construction for the last year wasn't exactly helpful either

- 376 people were on trolleys yesterday. Despite the extra billions thrown at the health service in the last 14/15 months, it seems none of this made it to addressing the underlying issues

... And so begins the reporting of the deeper costs of shutting down a country for a year for a virus that 99.7/9% of people were at no real risk from.

Expect to see a lot more of this as the media start looking to fill the pages and articles freed up by the diminishing coverage of the "crisis" and we find out just how much damage has been done in all those other areas that have been ignored as a result.

That this post elicited a bitter response from the usual suspects isn't the least bit surprising. The blinkers are finally off, even the media with the tongues wagging after Tony for the past year have come to realise the severe economic damage inflicted by unnecessary lockdowns. The bill is due, and our overpaid pals in government/NPHET aren't going to pick up the tab. Yes, you guessed it, Johnny taxpayer is tasked with repaying back tens of billions. Including those finally returning to work after being on the receiving end of said lockdowns.

Slapstick isn't the the half of it, why attend a circus when you have a clown show for free - latest schtick is discouraging people from purchasing home testing kits. Can't have the plebs taking any initiative, I must enforce my will on the people à la Kim Jong uimhir a haon. Isn't that right spanner Nolan. Handful of people in ICU out of five million, well...ah...uh...indoor hospitality is the grim reaper's playground. Nothing to do with pure contempt for a struggling sector on its knees, a cornerstore of Irish culture for many a generation. And watch him cut a scythe through those who congregate at concerts and sporting events. The only "superspreader" event is the pile of manure being spewed out by our esteemed leaders on a regular basis.

Boggles · 12-05-2021 11:08AM

normanoffside wrote: »

YHow many care home staff would have developed and spread Covid to their residents?

God knows. They were used in the White House though.

Did Donald hold 2 or 3 super spreader events?

12-05-2021 11:24AM

normanoffside wrote: »

Yes but a daily Antigen test is better and cheaper than a fortnightly PCR test. Over the course of 2 weeks while waiting for their next PCR, how many care home staff would have developed and spread Covid to their residents?

Nobody was ever asking to scrap the fortnightly PCR: just to add the Antigen as an extra level of safety.

Daily antigen tests in a controlled environment and picking up your test along with the rest of your barbecue supplies at lidl are two completely different beasts

niallo27 · 12-05-2021 11:26AM

Boggles wrote: »

Tried and pull in the UK.

Greater Manchester stops care home tests over accuracy fears

But of course 'da man on the da youtube' with all the easy answers won't tell you any of that.

Vitamin D, Rapid testing, be grand - here is 12 ways to donate.

The poster made his point, you came back with a perfectly acceptable response with a link, why the ****ty remark at the end, your coming across as a dick and nobody will debate anything with you.

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 11:53AM

normanoffside wrote: »

Yeah our Health system is just a mismanaged mess

It was also reported today that 15% of our total deaths (750) were in people who contracted Covid inside Hospitals. I'd say that's the majority of people who actually died with covid in Hospitals
That coupled with care homes means that over half our deaths actually caught it in healthcare settings

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1391879997829238788

Hindsight always gives 20/20 vision, but is there not a major flaw in your hindsight in that you have removed at least one set of goalposts. ?

The people most vulnerable to Covid-19 are those immunosuppressed.
Many patients in hospital would, for the very reasons they are there in the first place, be immunosuppressed and highly susceptible to Covid-19.
You, like some here complain about the lack of hospital treatment for conditions other than Covid-19 when there were high incidents of the virus.

Even with 20/20 hindsight vision how do you see you could have continual treatment of those immunosuppressed alongside Covid-19 patients and have less Covid-19 deaths rather than more ?

Covid-19 transmission in hospitals is not unique to Ireland no matter how much you seem to believe it is. It has happened world wide, and similar to Ireland during high incidents of this virus hospitals worldwide have (some still doing so) suspended, similar to Ireland, all but emergency procedures.

normanoffside · 12-05-2021 11:55AM

niallo27 wrote: »

your coming across as a dick and nobody will debate anything with you.

That’s because most of us have him on ignore

M_Murphy57 · 12-05-2021 11:56AM

normanoffside wrote: »

That’s because most of us have him on ignore

Preach!

Klonker · 12-05-2021 11:56AM

normanoffside wrote: »

Tony doesn’t know when he is beat. He is doubling down against Antigen testing even though Donnelly has already chastised Nolan for his tweets.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/holohan-expresses-concerns-about-antigen-testing-to-donnelly-1.4562441?fbclid=IwAR01QRfMLTJBXMqOzs58EiXKTBYG2shKgVzOnQjwG14W542N9zstpbJgAew

Donnelly and government really need to show a bit of backbone at this stage. They are terrified of going against NPHET. I'm actually very surprised that Donnelly was critical on Tony's comment.

Klonker · 12-05-2021 12:06PM

It's not a PCR versus antigen test argument, it's a use of antigen testing as part of our safety measures. Obviously if you have covid symptoms you should go for a PCR test.

When we go back to our offices later in the year, we are not all going going to go for seeking PCR tests weekly, there wouldn't be the capacity for it and they'd be too slow in getting results. Do people actually think that this antigen testing wouldn't be helpful? You go home if positive and go for a PCR test. The alternative is no test, which do you think is better?

Same for concerts or matches, an antigen test before hand, the alternative is nothing, which is better? I actually can't believe people's arguments that are against antigen testing. If NPHET said they were for them all these people woukd be for them too. They seem incapable to use their own minds for a bit of critical thinking.

normanoffside · 12-05-2021 12:09PM

Klonker wrote: »

It's not a PCR versus antigen test argument, it's a use of antigen testing as part of our safety measures. Obviously if you have covid symptoms you should go for a PCR test.

When we go back to our offices later in the year, we are not all going going to go for seeking PCR tests weekly, there wouldn't be the capacity for it and they'd be too slow in getting results. Do people actually think that this antigen testing wouldn't be helpful? You go home if positive and go for a PCR test. The alternative is no test, which do you think is better?

Same for concerts or matches, an antigen test before hand, the alternative is nothing, which is better? I actually can't believe people's arguments that are against antigen testing. If NPHET said they were for them all these people woukd be for them too. They seem incapable to use their own minds for a bit of critical thinking.

The thing is that Antigen tests are a toll to be used to get things opened.
NPHET don't want to get things opened.

Klonker · 12-05-2021 12:10PM

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I am not very familiar with this forum. Are people really allowed to reject scientific evidence? That statement about "ridiculous mask wearing" is a nonsense.

The facts have evolved on masks. They are now thought to be pretty ineffective in the outdoors, where wearing a mask is fairly redundant. They are still crucial to preventing transmission when social distancing is not possible.

The facts haven't evolved, masks always made sense if you really thought about it and didn't just listen to NPHET. Next big breaking facts, umbrellas help stop the rain from landing on you.

In a few weeks when antigen use is widespread across Ireland and the rest of the world for all of us that go to offices or for concerts and matches you'll be stating that the facts changed too when in fact it won't have, it'll just be that NPHET will have told you to have a different which you will.

Allinall · 12-05-2021 12:15PM

normanoffside wrote: »

The thing is that Antigen tests are a toll to be used to get things opened.
NPHET don't want to get things opened.

That's patently not true.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/01bbf-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-thursday-22-april/

"If we can maintain our current position there is hope that we can look forward to a real easing of measures, but it is as important as ever that we don’t put that progress at risk by letting our collective guard down too much, or too early."

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/56112-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-tuesday-11-may/

"The two primary targets as we try to exit the pandemic are vaccination and low transmission. If we can keep cases low and continue to vaccinate as many people as possible, we will find ourselves in a very different risk environment where we can see further easing of measures. Our task now is to keep the disease under control by following the basic measures and taking up our vaccine when it is offered to us."

Just two examples of where they are hopeful of opening up more.

FintanMcluskey · 12-05-2021 12:22PM

Allinall wrote: »

That's patently not true.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/01bbf-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-thursday-22-april/

"If we can maintain our current position there is hope that we can look forward to a real easing of measures, but it is as important as ever that we don’t put that progress at risk by letting our collective guard down too much, or too early."

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/56112-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-tuesday-11-may/

"The two primary targets as we try to exit the pandemic are vaccination and low transmission. If we can keep cases low and continue to vaccinate as many people as possible, we will find ourselves in a very different risk environment where we can see further easing of measures. Our task now is to keep the disease under control by following the basic measures and taking up our vaccine when it is offered to us."

Just two examples of where they are hopeful of opening up more.

I think you have inadvertently supported Norman’s argument as opposed to your own with the quotes you have posted.

France are reopening outdoor dining on Tuesday.

NPHET are talking rubbish about hopefully, maybe, behave, sometime we can reopen

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 12:22PM

Klonker wrote: »

It's not a PCR versus antigen test argument, it's a use of antigen testing as part of our safety measures. Obviously if you have covid symptoms you should go for a PCR test.

When we go back to our offices later in the year, we are not all going going to go for seeking PCR tests weekly, there wouldn't be the capacity for it and they'd be too slow in getting results. Do people actually think that this antigen testing wouldn't be helpful? You go home if positive and go for a PCR test. The alternative is no test, which do you think is better?

Same for concerts or matches, an antigen test before hand, the alternative is nothing, which is better? I actually can't believe people's arguments that are against antigen testing. If NPHET said they were for them all these people woukd be for them too. They seem incapable to use their own minds for a bit of critical thinking.

I`m no expert on antigen tests, but even if NPHET were in favour of them I would still have major doubts. From any data I have seen self administered antigen tests results are very hit and miss and there detection levels of low viral loads are poor.
For concerts and matches I would see vaccination as a much more dependable alternative.

12-05-2021 12:28PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I think you have inadvertently supported Norman’s argument as opposed to your own with the quotes you have posted.

France are reopening outdoor dining on Tuesday.

NPHET are talking rubbish about hopefully, maybe, behave, sometime we can reopen

"Hopeful of opening up more", did you ever hear such disingenuous preaching. I wish I was a wishing well. What is stopping them from acting today? Just do it already. Prolonging closures across a range of sectors only damaging the economy further.

normanoffside · 12-05-2021 12:29PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m no expert on antigen tests, but even if NPHET were in favour of them I would still have major doubts. From any data I have seen self administered antigen tests results are very hit and miss and there detection levels of low viral loads are poor.
For concerts and matches I would see vaccination as a much more dependable alternative.

Antigen tests are different to PCR.
PCR will detect very low levels of virus even dead virus long past when you are infectious.
Antigen tests are proven to be excellent at picking up cases when they are at their most infectious. That's when you are most likely to spread it to others.

You can be PCR positive for weeks and months but there is only a 4-8 day window when you are infectious and Antigen will pick it up in this window 90%+ of the time, almost 100% of the time when you test regularly..

Silentcorner · 12-05-2021 12:29PM

Boggles wrote: »

Tried and pull in the UK.

Greater Manchester stops care home tests over accuracy fears

But of course 'da man on the da youtube' with all the easy answers won't tell you any of that.

Vitamin D, Rapid testing, be grand - here is 12 ways to donate.

Are two of a number of weapons in the arsenal that should be widely encouraged....hard lock downs are not the only tool, although our lot haven't been able to come up with an alternative approach despite nearly 15 months of this!

The WHO does not encourage the use of lock downs, but sure, they are youtube grifters right?

Look, we know you have contempt for accepted science if it doesn't come straight from the mouth of Nphet or our media....you have demonstrated that for some time, but this is causing too much damage to our society to ignore, otherwise we will be going right back into level 5 lockdowns next flu season.

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 12:30PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I think you have inadvertently supported Norman’s argument as opposed to your own with the quotes you have posted.

France are reopening outdoor dining on Tuesday.

NPHET are talking rubbish about hopefully, maybe, behave, sometime we can reopen

Big deal.
We are doing the same as France 19 days later.
What are the curfew hours in France at the moment compared to here ?

Allinall · 12-05-2021 12:32PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Hopeful of opening up more", did you ever hear such disingenuous preaching. I wish I was a wishing well. What is stopping them from acting today? Just do it already. Prolonging closures across a range of sectors only damaging the economy further.

NPHET don’t extend closures.

The government do.

gozunda · 12-05-2021 12:33PM

Klonker wrote: »

It's not a PCR versus antigen test argument, it's a use of antigen testing as part of our safety measures. Obviously if you have covid symptoms you should go for a PCR test.

When we go back to our offices later in the year, we are not all going going to go for seeking PCR tests weekly, there wouldn't be the capacity for it and they'd be too slow in getting results. Do people actually think that this antigen testing wouldn't be helpful? You go home if positive and go for a PCR test. The alternative is no test, which do you think is better?

Same for concerts or matches, an antigen test before hand, the alternative is nothing, which is better? I actually can't believe people's arguments that are against antigen testing. If NPHET said they were for them all these people woukd be for them too. They seem incapable to use their own minds for a bit of critical thinking.

Only issue there is unlike PCR, the majority of antigen tests are known to be best used where someone is already symptomatic - they are not effective at identifying pre-symptomatic cases.

Klonker · 12-05-2021 12:37PM

gozunda wrote: »

Only issue there is unlike PCR, the majority of antigen tests are known to be best used where someone is already symptomatic - they are not effective at identifying pre-symptomatic cases.

The alternative is no test. Which would you prefer? Or we just never go back to the office.

12-05-2021 12:38PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Of course he is...the use of antigens tests in care home facilities would have saved countless lives...he has to believe that he is right!

Would it? Not great sensitivity vs good specitivity. Can you actually say this would have caused a net saving of lives?

Follow the science etc.

Cordially,
The_Dazzler

Klonker · 12-05-2021 12:41PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m no expert on antigen tests, but even if NPHET were in favour of them I would still have major doubts. From any data I have seen self administered antigen tests results are very hit and miss and there detection levels of low viral loads are poor.
For concerts and matches I would see vaccination as a much more dependable alternative.

We'll need antigen testing even after we are vaccinated though for the rest of the year I'd imagine anyway. You can't ensure all have had a vaccine, I'm not even sure it's legal and Ireland have stated they won't go down that route anyway. Again it's not one or the other, it's antigen or nothing. People being vaccinated is a different aspect, they'll have vaccines or not, has nothing to do if antigen tests are used or not.

Boggles · 12-05-2021 12:46PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

The WHO does not encourage the use of lock downs, but sure, they are youtube grifters right?

Nope.

WHO recognizes that at certain points, some countries have had no choice but to issue stay-at-home orders and other measures

And Nope.

The World Health Organisation’s executive director of emergency programmes, Dr Mike Ryan has warned that giving dates for reopening society will not “drive anything”, getting down the number of Covid cases was what was the most important measure.

Speaking on RTÉ radio’s News at One, Dr Ryan said that the Government did not have many options while the number of cases remained at current levels. There was not much point in exiting lockdown only to lurch back, he added. There had to be trade-offs

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings