M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster · 06-05-2021 10:00am

Limerick74 wrote: »

The alternative cork limerick routes just keep getting rehashed. I thought this argument was put to bed last year. The examiner seems to have something against the project for some reason. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40282028.html

They just seem to have an anti road agenda. They were very noticeable in publicising the nonsense from the M28 Steering Group too.

JamesBond2010 · 06-05-2021 11:37am

Limerick74 wrote: »

The alternative cork limerick routes just keep getting rehashed. I thought this argument was put to bed last year. The examiner seems to have something against the project for some reason. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40282028.html

most of them papers now are only trash. they are all mostly owned by nearly the same person/group. so u see a lot of that type of stuff in them now. Paper never refuses ink type reporting or complaining. Not the local paper anymore.

Sam Russell · 06-05-2021 1:35pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They just seem to have an anti road agenda. They were very noticeable in publicising the nonsense from the M28 Steering Group too.

Don't forget the Cork Irish Examiner has a local readership for things Cork.

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-05-2021 4:42pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Don't forget the Cork Irish Examiner has a local readership for things Cork.

That's what makes it all the worse, they should be advocating to make Cork a better place, instead if being opposed to everything that sets out to achieve just that.

Sam Russell · 06-05-2021 6:53pm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

That's what makes it all the worse, they should be advocating to make Cork a better place, instead if being opposed to everything that sets out to achieve just that.

It is just a different slant on NYMBISM. Their readers are local Cork, with local Cork views.

Reputable Rog · 06-05-2021 7:49pm

Bring everyone into Dunkettle and into the tunnel. What could possibly go wrong?
Another fine piece of writing from Corks most in-depth reporter.
De Papur might as well fold up the tent if either he or Tommy Barker retire.

07-05-2021 2:05am

I drove to cork the other day from Limerick to do a delivery. Anyone who's against the M20 obviously never drove on it. The traffic jams in charleville are horrible. Plus to top it off I was held up near o Rourke's cross by a farmer bringing his cattle across the road..

Limerick74 · 07-05-2021 7:28am

Discussion on Newstalk yesterday on Cork Limerick Check out this podcast M20 Motorway from Limerick to Cork - Is it needed? by The Hard Shoulder Highlights on GoLoud. https://www.goloudnow.com/pod-278837?station_app=newstalk

prunudo · 07-05-2021 8:26am

Not necessarily just related to the M20 but I fear for the pace of progress with planning future road infrastructure over the next few years.
Between the environmentalists, nimbys and people jumping on the pandemic 'sure everyone can work from home' bandwagon its going to be a tough time trying to get these important projects brought through to fruition.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 07-05-2021 8:31am

Limerick74 wrote: »

Discussion on Newstalk yesterday on Cork Limerick Check out this podcast M20 Motorway from Limerick to Cork - Is it needed? by The Hard Shoulder Highlights on GoLoud. https://www.goloudnow.com/pod-278837?station_app=newstalk

I listened to this alliance group and they talk crap.how is it better to drive up m8 to cahir then cross over to Limerick then do a loop into Limerick. I know all these areas. You be driving towards Dublin then get off Cahir over tipp and come in long way into Limerick by ballysimon road in Limerick which is one of busiest road coming into limerick.are they mad.
The crap they come up with to avoid a direct motorway between the second and third biggest city's is unreal.

Drivers will still use n20 if government use another route is built.Drivers aren't going to waste fuel driving up m8 to cross over by cahir. Anyone with some brains knows this.
The M24 only helps traffic in tipp and Waterford. Does not help traffic currently on n20. I use n20 few times a week driving between cork and Limerick .it's not just bottle necks in charlesville and other towns on n20. It's the tractors on the road. It the show moving traffic. It's the weather.

The alliance group talk crap with other route. N20 upgrade to motorway is only option for many reasons ,time and safety.

If you drive on m8 from dunkettle roundabout to cahir exit off m8 .it's 44 mins or if you drive from Blackpool cork to same cahir exit off m8 it's over 54 mins depending how busy traffic is .then you take the new M24 if built towards Limerick it will work out almost same drive time it's currently on n20. No saving .all you be doing a a a loop around cork to tipp to Limerick to come into busiest road in Limerick city.i have driven these routes for over 40 years. This alliance group suggestion is brainless idea .

The best link is straight link between the two city's is straight line in other words a direct motorway between the two city's.alliance need to go back to school to learn again.

Limerick74 · 07-05-2021 9:18am

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

I listened to this alliance group and they talk crap.how is it better to drive up m8 to cahir then cross over to Limerick then do a loop into Limerick. I know all these areas. You be driving towards Dublin then get off Cahir over tipp and come in long way into Limerick by ballysimon road in Limerick which is one of busiest road coming into limerick.are they mad.
The crap they come up with to avoid a direct motorway between the second and third biggest city's is unreal.

Drivers will still use n20 if government use another route is built.Drivers aren't going to waste fuel driving up m8 to cross over by cahir. Anyone with some brains knows this.
The M24 only helps traffic in tipp and Waterford. Does not help traffic currently on n20. I use n20 few times a week driving between cork and Limerick .it's not just bottle necks in charlesville and other towns on n20. It's the tractors on the road. It the show moving traffic. It's the weather.

The alliance group talk crap with other route. N20 upgrade to motorway is only option for many reasons ,time and safety.

If you drive on m8 from dunkettle roundabout to cahir exit off m8 .it's 44 mins or if you drive from Blackpool cork to same cahir exit off m8 it's over 54 mins depending how busy traffic is .then you take the new M24 if built towards Limerick it will work out almost same drive time it's currently on n20. No saving .all you be doing a a a loop around cork to tipp to Limerick to come into busiest road in Limerick city.i have driven these routes for over 40 years. This alliance group suggestion is brainless idea .

The best link is straight link between the two city's is straight line in other words a direct motorway between the two city's.alliance need to go back to school to learn again.

The CLAG “alliance” group is effectively one landowner from Mallow that was directly impacted by the 2010 M20. It is pure and simple NIMBYism, that is never called out in the media.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 07-05-2021 9:32am

Limerick74 wrote: »

The CLAG “alliance” group is effectively one landowner from Mallow that was directly impacted by the 2010 M20. It is pure and simple NIMBYism, that is never called out in the media.

Was thinking it was land owners and others who don't give a crap only putting out a suggestion that a brainless idea .
Said on podcast only 3k vehicles per day use n20. During normal times post covid19 be alot more than that.
My brother drives for fuel company with artic rig and every day drives a round trip of 2 to 4 times a day. He will continue to use n20 or M20 because he has too .
The amount of artics on that road during busy times is unreal .so a motorway is needed on n20.
Same crap happened when building the m8 and m7 . Will always be others who will not want it.
They talk about trains . That won't work as tickets for train trip is expensive to go anywhere. So people will drive or use bus so again motorway needed .

Bass Reeves · 07-05-2021 9:48am

The reason this North Cork business alliance is against the motorway is that they consider that less people will stop if it's a faster route. As well where we motorways replaced older roads we have seen business that were profitable disappear. However that's just the nature of development it moves business elsewhere.

However you have to factor in the impact of what a decent roadway will do for everyone else. Like many I do not buy the idea that all Limerick to Cork traffic and visa versa will move to the. Even if it did it would only reduce route traffic by 30% but more likely 15%. Straighting and realignment will not solve the M20 add in by passes and you are looking at 40-50% of motorway costs with none of the benefits.

Neither am I buying that landing a load of extra traffic at Dunkettle suddenly solves the Blackpool issue. TBH I consider Blackpool to only be an issue at peak times 8.30-9.30am and 5-6pm most if the rest of the time it's manageable. It a lot harder to access the CC from Dunkettle than from Blackpool.

While Mitchelstown might be an option I think it as expensive from an engineering standpoint. As well there is no traffic or town to justify the building of it so there is no added benefit to it. However again you arrive in Dunkettle which has its disadvantages. Over time the South ring road woul become a car park at rush hour.

Mitchelstown also has the disadvantage in that it would throw development into an area which has no services and this will add cost into the equation as well.....that unless as the road leaves Mitchelstown until you reach to within 10-15km if Limerick you put in no exits access

KrisW1001 · 07-05-2021 10:01am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The reason this North Cork business alliance is against the motorway is that they consider that less people will stop if it's a faster route.

Send these people on a bus-trip to Naas. This argument has been proven wrong over and over again.

Cork-Limerick is such a grind that I want the journey to be over as soon as possible. I never, ever want to stop somewhere, because it lengthens the pain. And anyway, what attraction is there to having your coffee and sandwich while heavy-goods vehicles rumble along the main street a few metres in front of you?

With a motorway bypass making them quieter and less covered in diesel soot, I'd actually consider dropping in to places like Buttevant or Charleville for something to eat. A lot of locals would spend longer in the towns too.

The big objection isn't from businesses, it's from a couple of land-owners along the route who see their dreams of residential zoning going up in smoke.

rightmove · 07-05-2021 10:11am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Cork-Limerick is such a grind that I want the journey to be over as soon as possible. I never, ever want to stop somewhere, because it lengthens the pain. ......, I'd actually consider dropping in to places like Buttevant or Charleville for something to eat. A lot of locals would spend longer in the towns too.

I stop in Gort on the longer runs as i get off the motorway and have a reasonable chance of getting back on the road. i would never stop in charleville unless there was a motorway along side it.

07-05-2021 10:56am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Send these people on a bus-trip to Naas. This argument has been proven wrong over and over again.

Cork-Limerick is such a grind that I want the journey to be over as soon as possible. I never, ever want to stop somewhere, because it lengthens the pain. And anyway, what attraction is there to having your coffee and sandwich while heavy-goods vehicles rumble along the main street a few metres in front of you?

With a motorway bypass making them quieter and less covered in diesel soot, I'd actually consider dropping in to places like Buttevant or Charleville for something to eat. A lot of locals would spend longer in the towns too.

The big objection isn't from businesses, it's from a couple of land-owners along the route who see their dreams of residential zoning going up in smoke.

I remember Nenagh and Roscrea before the m7. Absolute disaster's just like Charleville. Now they're a pleasure to drive into. Anyone who's in those towns is there for a reason, not just to pass through. I remember as a young lad just how filthy Nenagh was from all the trucks. Lovely town now.

Isambard · 07-05-2021 10:59am

Buttevant and Charleville both have decent cafes to stop for breakfast right on the main street with parking outside (not currently of course), Having said that on such a short motorway journey, there's be little need to stop.

hans aus dtschl · 07-05-2021 12:19pm

Yeah people have a weird blind spot for "traffic = money".
People consistently think that cars clogging up their streets means their shops are making more money.
The opposite has been proven true over and over and over.

Bass Reeves · 07-05-2021 5:37pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yeah people have a weird blind spot for "traffic = money".
People consistently think that cars clogging up their streets means their shops are making more money.
The opposite has been proven true over and over and over.

While that is true for many business's it is not true for conveince shops, petrol stations, cafe's and some other business's located on the road. These pass by business's can literarly have there footfall disappear over night. The Dunkerron Inn is a case in point. I could name 10-12 business's that will struggle when a motorway opens.

padjocollins · 08-05-2021 6:42am

I'm listening to The Hard Shoulder Highlights | M20 Motorway from Limerick to Cork - Is it needed? on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-wvrqv-e334679

a good discussion on the merits of where to put the cork/limerick route

Cookiemunster · 08-05-2021 9:17am

padjocollins wrote: »

I'm listening to The Hard Shoulder Highlights | M20 Motorway from Limerick to Cork - Is it needed? on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-wvrqv-e334679

a good discussion on the merits of where to put the cork/limerick route

Theres no discussion. It needs to and it has already been decided that it will run along the route of the N20.

BelfastVanMan · 08-05-2021 9:31am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Theres no discussion. It needs to and it has already been decided that it will run along the route of the N20.

Anyone else seen Groundhog Day?

veryangryman · 08-05-2021 2:07pm

Very cheap of newstalk to do these debates. They have a guy who clearly is im alright jack with his business and wants the road on his doorstep and never once did the host pull him up on it. Waste of airtime

alias no.9 · 08-05-2021 2:36pm

I think these shows who give this self important mouthpiece airtime need to be bombarded with the same simple message....

There is not a single public record of the so called cork limerick alliance group outside of public opposition to a vital piece of national infrastructure. How many members do they represent and who are they? It seems like little more than an important sounding name to try and give a veneer of legitimacy to an argument with little substance beyond NIMBY.

hans aus dtschl · 10-05-2021 3:33pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

While that is true for many business's it is not true for conveince shops, petrol stations, cafe's and some other business's located on the road. These pass by business's can literarly have there footfall disappear over night. The Dunkerron Inn is a case in point. I could name 10-12 business's that will struggle when a motorway opens.

I'm sure you can name 10-12 businesses that will struggle when a motorway opens. I probably can too. But it's much harder to name the very many which will be able to open thanks to the motorway.

However cafe's and convenience shops etc tend to fare much much better without bumper-to-bumper traffic. So many towns on the old Cork-Dublin alignment are finally recovering now and are returning to becoming proper market towns thanks to the M8. Fermoy and Rathcormac are actually nice places to be once again.

Traffic congestion absolutely kills towns. It kills productivity. The emissions also literally kill, but that's another topic entirely.

I understand what you're saying "some people won't benefit" and that is true. But for instance car dealerships don't benefit from good public transport. Some people will always profit from the negatives of a current situation.

But the current general overall consensus is that congestion is not good for towns.

Bass Reeves · 10-05-2021 4:27pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'm sure you can name 10-12 businesses that will struggle when a motorway opens. I probably can too. But it's much harder to name the very many which will be able to open thanks to the motorway.

However cafe's and convenience shops etc tend to fare much much better without bumper-to-bumper traffic. So many towns on the old Cork-Dublin alignment are finally recovering now and are returning to becoming proper market towns thanks to the M8. Fermoy and Rathcormac are actually nice places to be once again.

Traffic congestion absolutely kills towns. It kills productivity. The emissions also literally kill, but that's another topic entirely.

I understand what you're saying "some people won't benefit" and that is true. But for instance car dealerships don't benefit from good public transport. Some people will always profit from the negatives of a current situation.

But the current general overall consensus is that congestion is not good for towns.

I agree entirely with your points, however people and business owners are more likely to organize against some that will effect them negatively that organize for something that may be in there interest longterm.

I would not totally agree about cafe's and connvience shops. Those in town centers will benefit longterm those at town edge's supplying the the lad stopping for to fill up of fuel and buy a coffee and bun lose or the cafe that is along the road taht truckers pull into lose out to the motorway service points.

I am all for this motorway but I can see where some business opposition comes from I do not agree with them or there analysis but I can see where they lose out

Isambard · 10-05-2021 4:46pm

Let it not be forgotten that Buttevant campaigned successfully against a bypass led by it's businesses.

Chris_5339762 · 10-05-2021 9:19pm

And then they demanded a junction on the 2010 motorway plans.

hans aus dtschl · 11-05-2021 11:00am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I agree entirely with your points, however people and business owners are more likely to organize against some that will effect them negatively that organize for something that may be in there interest longterm.

I would not totally agree about cafe's and connvience shops. Those in town centers will benefit longterm those at town edge's supplying the the lad stopping for to fill up of fuel and buy a coffee and bun lose or the cafe that is along the road taht truckers pull into lose out to the motorway service points.

I am all for this motorway but I can see where some business opposition comes from I do not agree with them or there analysis but I can see where they lose out

Yes I think you're absolutely right.
The car-based businesses on the periphery or just outside of the towns are the ones who will likely lose out. The businesses in the middle of the town itself will gain. Things like groceries, restaurants, retail and professional services in the town will gain.

And I think where we differ is that some cafes will gain too, just not the "button press for instant coffee" type of cafe, rather the "sit down and chat" or "sit and work" kind of cafe. It quite possibly will be a net negative for the owner of the local "PetrolBurgerCoffee" on the edge of town.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 12-05-2021 11:27am

Traffic is getting busy on n20 This week .not like post covid19 but in another 6 months will show more on this route
Where this so called alliance group get the number that only 3,000 vehicles on this n20 daily.
The amount of heavy vehicles with charlesville and buttevant getting more busy . doesn't take much on twisted road areas to build up traffic .
Roll on M20 . enough talk .get it done.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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