Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

blanch152 · 04-05-2021 10:42AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

That of course is your opinion
It is mine that some here wish to have an innocent man tried and convicted of a crime that doesnt to our knowledge exist
The governments position is,they've moved on,content that there's no crime and closing the door to any Tom dick or paddy cosgrave disrupting the running of the country for a crime they believe not to exist
Proper order in my opinion

This is the completely farcical thing here. We still have no evidence to confirm a crime has been committed.

When someone is raped or assaulted or murdered, you can clearly see that a crime has been committed. In this case, we don't have that evidence, it is speculation that a crime is being committed.

FrancieBrady · 04-05-2021 10:45AM

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the completely farcical thing here. We still have no evidence to confirm a crime has been committed.

When someone is raped or assaulted or murdered, you can clearly see that a crime has been committed. In this case, we don't have that evidence, it is speculation that a crime is being committed.

Wow, just wow.

So are you saying it is wrong to investigate because it isn't clear a crime has been committed?

JeffKenna · 04-05-2021 10:52AM

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the completely farcical thing here. We still have no evidence to confirm a crime has been committed.

When someone is raped or assaulted or murdered, you can clearly see that a crime has been committed. In this case, we don't have that evidence, it is speculation that a crime is being committed.

If that's the case why do the majority of rape cases go unpunished?? Jesus Christ.

magicbastarder · 04-05-2021 10:54AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody has leaked any documents.

i hate the way the word 'leak' is being used about what's going on.

it's a leak if you give it to a journalist in the expectation that it will make it into the public domain.
what varadkar is accused of is better described as insider trading. this was *not* intended for public disclosure.

04-05-2021 11:05AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wow, just wow.

So are you saying it is wrong to investigate because it isn't clear a crime has been committed?

He did'nt say that and you know that
It is the governments position that such investigations are independent
They are so confident that the result will be no crime existed,that they've moved on
I'm not surprised,because governments have full control of the official secrets status of documents
Vradakar hate doesn't change that fact

blanch152 · 04-05-2021 11:10AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wow, just wow.

So are you saying it is wrong to investigate because it isn't clear a crime has been committed?

Disingenuous twist of my post.

Gardai are right to investigate whether a crime has been committed. The point is, we have no evidence to suggest that there has been a crime committed. Moving from that place to people stepping aside is ludicrous one-eyed politicking.

FrancieBrady · 04-05-2021 11:29AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Disingenuous twist of my post.

Gardai are right to investigate whether a crime has been committed. The point is, we have no evidence to suggest that there has been a crime committed. Moving from that place to people stepping aside is ludicrous one-eyed politicking.

We have the evidence of Leo's confession to what he did, after being exposed in the media. Something he was keeping hidden from the record, so much so, others in his government were not aware of what he did.

The DPP...not you, not me, not a Garda source will decide if that was a criminal act.
You have been handwaving this all away since the get go and as it went through the various stages, vowing that it would NOT proceed to the next one. Hardly an expert view or even an informed one.

blanch152 · 04-05-2021 11:31AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have the evidence of Leo's confession to what he did, after being exposed in the media. Something he was keeping hidden from the record, so much so, others in his government were not aware of what he did.

The DPP...not you, not me, not a Garda source will decide if that was a criminal act.
You have been handwaving this all away since the get go and as it went through the various stages, vowing that it would NOT proceed to the next one. Hardly an expert view or even an informed one.

You mean, we have Leo's explanation for what he did, and why it wasn't a crime?

jmcc · 04-05-2021 11:34AM

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the completely farcical thing here. We still have no evidence to confirm a crime has been committed.

In terms of evidence, there is the following:
1. There is the confession by Varadkar that he leaked the confidential document to his friend.

2. The WhatsApp conversations.

3. The mobile phones and their activity logs.

4. The e-mail conversation between Varadkar and his assistant where he proves that he knows the document is not in the public domain and has not been distributed to the IMO members.

Deciding what laws, if any, have been broken is up to the DPP but there have been mentions of the Official Secrets Act and the Corruption legislation.

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady · 04-05-2021 11:40AM

blanch152 wrote: »

You mean, we have Leo's explanation for what he did, and why it wasn't a crime?

You call it what you want.

The DPP will view it in the context of the two pieces of legislation they are investigating it under.

*and no, I do not want to hear your learned opinion of the legislation. As I said you have undermined that by handwaving this a way through every stage it has progressed through. We will leave that to the 'experts'.

jmcc · 04-05-2021 11:52AM

Suppose those with a legal background will now have the pleasure of learning what it was like to have so many database "experts" displaying their knowledge.

Hope they've stocked up on the popcorn.

Regards...jmcc

04-05-2021 11:59AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

*and no, I do not want to hear your learned opinion of the legislation. As I said you have undermined that by handwaving this a way through every stage it has progressed through. We will leave that to the 'experts'.

How is the viewpoint of innocent of a crime untill proven guilty handwaving?
Sure any tom dick or paddy cosgrave can instigate a crime investigation
In this case,the government are the ultimate authority on the status of the document
Ergo they've moved on, an indication of the facts in front of them
No amount of vradakar hate changes this

Necro · 04-05-2021 12:31PM

shatners bassoon wrote: »

...

The FineGaelBot3000 needs some fine tuning.

Edit: missed another one while I was putting it together!

Threadbanned

Necro · 04-05-2021 12:50PM

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

timmyntc · 04-05-2021 01:04PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

How is the viewpoint of innocent of a crime untill proven guilty handwaving?
Sure any tom dick or paddy cosgrave can instigate a crime investigation
In this case,the government are the ultimate authority on the status of the document
Ergo they've moved on, an indication of the facts in front of them
No amount of vradakar hate changes this

The whole point of a Garda investigation is to ascertain either:
1) was a crime committed
or
2) given that a crime was committed, who committed said crime

Given we know Varadkar is the man in question here, the investigation is of the the 1st type. At this stage whether its a crime or not a crime nobody here can categorically say - thats up to the courts. So obsessing over whether it definitely is or isnt is just semantics. Mad that after how many months we still have people arguing over this point - I feel like I'm in a time warp.

Also about the highlighted - no, only the Gardai can instigate a criminal investigation. Members of the public can go to the Gardai if they believe a crime has taken place, but the investigation is up to the Gardai whether to start a case or not.

And as for that phrase - :pac:

Marcos · 04-05-2021 01:08PM

jmcc wrote: »

Deciding what laws, if any, have been broken is up to the DPP but there have been mentions of the Official Secrets Act and the Corruption legislation.

Regards...jmcc

Conor Lenihan stated in an interview that on his first day as minister he was explicitly warned about his duties under and signed the Official Secrets Act.

A senior official from my Department made an appointment with me and produced a rather formal letter which, with an impressive solemnity, he insisted I sign there and then. On the day of my appointment the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern also assiduously underlined my obligations under the Official Secrets Act.

Paul Murphy stated that Varadkars actions could be in breach of the Corruption Act.

Also from Lenihans first interview

Ministers from two separate parties, in the last week, have pointedly brought my attention to Section 7 of the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act of 2018 which casts a wide definition of corruption to include “obtaining a gift, consideration or advantage” [emphasis added].

Even if Leo Varadkar did not see his leak to a medical-doctor friend as being wrong, once an advantage is passed to one or both, above and beyond competitors, then the Corruption Act is triggered.

I am not a fan of Lenihans by any means, but I believe him on this.

04-05-2021 01:10PM

timmyntc wrote: »

And as for that phrase - :pac:

Thanks

jmcc · 04-05-2021 01:13PM

Marcos wrote: »

Conor Lenihan stated in an interview that on his first day as minister he was explicitly warned about his duties under and signed the Official Secrets Act.

Paul Murphy stated that Varadkars actions could be in breach of the Corruption Act.

Also from Lenihans first interview

I am not a fan of Lenihans by any means, but I believe him on this.

I think that Paul Murphy is a lawyer so it is an interesting opinion. Conor Lenihan has a reputation for straight talking.

Regards...jmcc

04-05-2021 01:36PM

I suppose,since we are quoting a newspaper article and the village,I think it usefull to point out Vradakar has never said that he is immune from the official secrets act only that the document isn't coverrd by it
The government would know if this is the case
I've not heard yet of investigations into any other cabinet confidentiality question
Secondly we have the Sunday Times and Independent from a few weeks back telling us Garda sources haven't found any benefit from the document to vradakar

This is not surprising given the governments approach and that was to have the Dáil debate and move on

timmyntc · 04-05-2021 01:40PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Thanks

That was not an endorsement.

Marine Layer wrote: »

I suppose,since we are quoting a newspaper article and the village,I think it usefull to point out Vradakar has never said that he is immune from the official secrets act only that the document isn't coverrd by it
The government would know if this is the case
I've not heard yet of investigations into any other cabinet confidentiality question
Secondly we have the Sunday Times and Independent from a few weeks back telling us Garda sources haven't found any benefit from the document to vradakar

This is not surprising given the governments approach and that was to have the Dáil debate and move on

Varadkar stating that his own actions were lawful is hardly a surprise?
In investigations into misconduct of a member of the government, said government member is not to be used as any kind of authority into whether their actions were lawful.

FrancieBrady · 04-05-2021 01:48PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

How is the viewpoint of innocent of a crime untill proven guilty handwaving?
Sure any tom dick or paddy cosgrave can instigate a crime investigation
In this case,the government are the ultimate authority on the status of the document
Ergo they've moved on, an indication of the facts in front of them
No amount of vradakar hate changes this

Your insistence that 'the government has moved on', as something significant is the 'handwaving'.

The government are bystanders, just like you and me. It has no more influence on the course of events (we hope).

We await the outcome of what looks to be either a very thorough look at the evidence of a very complex one.

Either way, the 'government' have a senior minister who is the subject of a criminal investigation that they cannot 'move on' from. The government continues to function as it does, it even continued to function through a country closing pandemic.
Your handwaving means nothing in effect.

McMurphy · 04-05-2021 02:03PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

I suppose,since we are quoting a newspaper article and the village,I think it usefull to point out Vradakar has never said that he is immune from the official secrets act only that the document isn't coverrd by it
The government would know if this is the case
I've not heard yet of investigations into any other cabinet confidentiality question
Secondly we have the Sunday Times and Independent from a few weeks back telling us Garda sources haven't found any benefit from the document to vradakar

This is not surprising given the governments approach and that was to have the Dáil debate and move on

I don't remember any such opinion being given by the article in the Indo, this was discussed on this very thread the Sunday the story broke btw, I'd be surprised if you have forgotten that already, as I believe you and I discussed how when the times originally broke the story about the investigation being upgraded to a criminal one, it was dismissed by some in here as being a Tory rag, and when a different journalist penned an article stating an unnamed Garda source thought charges were unlikely, it became gospel.

As for the Indo that same day, I don't believe the author of that article stated any such opinion about charges other than the Gards would be sending a file to the DPP.

As detectives from NBCI have now spoken to both the Tánaiste and Dr Ó Tuathail — considered the key people in the probe — they will now begin their preparation of a file over the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

It is understood that gardaí intend to outline all the facts of the case to the DPP and it will be left up to the State prosecutor to make a decision on whether or not charges should be brought against Mr Varadkar.

Detectives can make a recommendation in any file submitted to the State prosecutor on whether criminal charges should be proffered. But in this instance, gardaí are expected to just outline the facts of the case, leaving the matter entirely up to the DPP to adjudicate on, which is also within the Garda remit.

Gardaí are examining whether the leak is a breach of the Official Secrets Act.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tanaiste-leo-varadkarquizzed-by-gardai-over-confidential-document-leak-40326324.html

04-05-2021 02:47PM

McMurphy wrote: »

As for the Indo that same day, I don't believe the author of that article stated any such opinion about charges other than the Gards would be sending a file to the DPP.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tanaiste-leo-varadkarquizzed-by-gardai-over-confidential-document-leak-40326324.html

Well they didn't just say that in the Sindo's case,they suggested the file would be going without recommendations
I think my views are well known at this stage,I won't repeat them at length as somebody upthread has already done a handy compilation
Other than to say,the government are the people who add or remove protected status and of course the Sunday time's garda source suggested no gain to vradakar

Necro · 04-05-2021 05:19PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

How is the viewpoint of innocent of a crime untill proven guilty handwaving?
Sure any tom dick or paddy cosgrave can instigate a crime investigation
In this case,the government are the ultimate authority on the status of the document
Ergo they've moved on, an indication of the facts in front of them
No amount of vradakar hate changes this

Mod: Can you please drop the use of this phrase, especially when you're repeating it ad nauseam. Once or twice was grand, but the repeated use of the same phrase would constitute trolling so let's leave it at that now.

FrancieBrady · 04-05-2021 05:27PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Well they didn't just say that in the Sindo's case,they suggested the file would be going without recommendations
I think my views are well known at this stage,I won't repeat them at length as somebody upthread has already done a handy compilation
Other than to say,the government are the people who add or remove protected status and of course the Sunday time's garda source suggested no gain to vradakar

Who 'removed' the status?
Surely there is a paper trail on this order? Or was it removed in the circling of the wagons

04-05-2021 06:00PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who 'removed' the status?
Surely there is a paper trail on this order?

Cabinet minutes would be subject to the official secrets act, so I cannot answer that for you

FrancieBrady · 04-05-2021 06:17PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

Cabinet minutes would be subject to the official secrets act, so I cannot answer that for you

So you don't now anything about this, but still proclaim you do?

04-05-2021 06:36PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you don't now anything about this, but still proclaim you do?

All I said was the government were confident,,having access to those details and have moved on
Thats certainly a fact

McMurphy · 04-05-2021 06:42PM

Marine Layer wrote: »

All I said was the government were confident,,having access to those details and have moved on
Thats certainly a fact

The government don't have any choice but to "move on" they're awaiting the DPP decision, I don't think anyone expects them to do anything else until that happens, they've no control over what happens next, it's well out of their hands, all eyes will be on the DPP and what they decide to do. I believe they have to give a reason if they decide no prosecution is warranted, but there's a lot of people looking at this, they'll want to have all their ts crossed and I's dotted I would imagine.

Repeating "they've moved on" over and over again like it's some kind of revelation is silly.

thomas 123 · 04-05-2021 06:43PM

Marine you are wrong - the government is accountable to the houses and the houses are accountable to the people. They have rules( agreed over the last 100 years by the dail and senate) if they were broken they should be held accountable.

Mind you being accountable and getting caught are two different things.

Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

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