What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 10:08AM

fly_agaric wrote: »

One thing that's interesting is people on the thread claiming the giant volumes that SII produce and have been put to use in India and exported as a great global success for "AstraZeneca". I know it is the same vaccine under a different name and they have UK/Oxford to thank for the IP and being allowed to produce it, but how deep is the connection between SII and AstraZeneca/what is the relationship there?

That's an important point... in India are we really talking about Oxford-Astrazeneca or Oxford-SII or Oxford-AZ-SII.
The manufacturing \ contracts \ supply side seem to be SII with very little AZ.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 10:27AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Alternatively uk just created an experimental Petri dish for more virulent “British” variants to breed in again, time will tell, but one thing is a constant everything Tories touch turns to ****

If this is going to happen with AZ it will likely be a concern with all non-mRNA vaccines. Relying entirely on mRNA vaccines is not a luxury we have in 2021, and it would have been wrong to attempt that strategy by relying entirely on a new vaccine technology.

It's not valid as a criticism of AZ or non-mRNA vaccines, unless your main focus is point scoring in some UK party political thing.

robinph · 30-04-2021 10:38AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Relying on mRNA is what Europe and the world has to do as AZ are struggling to produce a fraction of what they promised

All while all the other issues from this vaccine are causing hesitation

One thing worse than no vaccine is a bad vaccine

Explain the "bad vaccine" definition and how this would apply to Astra Zeneca.

Is it causing more deaths than covid? Is it causing more transmission of covid than for unvaccinated people? Is it causing more illness than covid?

The Oxford/ Astra Zeneca vaccine is clearly a far, far better option than being unvaccinated.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 10:39AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Relying on mRNA is what Europe and the world has to do as AZ are struggling to produce a fraction of what they promised
All while all the other issues from this vaccine are causing hesitation
One thing worse than no vaccine is a bad vaccine

Yes AZ are struggling to produce the quantities promised.
But with the quantities we have received it is saving lives.
We'd be better off with NO vaccines such as the Sanofi or GSK vaccines which never got through development???
Instead of a vaccine which is protecting millions across the globe???
The triple question marks illustrate the utter incredulity most people will register on reading that.

If AZ is a bad vaccine, what does that say about Moderna which we've had far far less of?
Or J&J which we have zero of and they just messed up 15 million doses?
Or Sputnik which is tainted?
AZ is not a bad vaccine, anyone saying that has left the realm of science and is playing out some UK party political game.

J&J, Sputnik, Sinopharm, Sinovac are not mRNA vaccines.
You seem to have conflated AZ into a category on its own versus mRNA vaccines.
If you are going to criticse AZ for flaws that likely affect all non-mRNA vaccines, at least acknowledge this or your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Will mRNA vaccines be suitable for mass rollout in developing countries?

I repeat in 2021 relying entirely on nMRA vaccines is fantasy unless you are prepared to wait a very long time before vaccinating your vulnerable and opening up your society without risk.

30-04-2021 10:47AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It’s causing hesitation in Ireland, Europe and Africa, see threads in this forum and articles posted earlier.

This could grow into vaccine scepticism against all vaccines

That’s dangerous, maybe the German waver idea should be adopted for those who want take risks

People taking to the internet to spout absolute bollocks with nothing to back it up probably doesn’t help either.

robinph · 30-04-2021 10:49AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It’s causing hesitation in Ireland, Europe and Africa, see threads in this forum and articles posted earlier.

This could grow into vaccine scepticism against all vaccines

That’s dangerous, maybe the German waver idea should be adopted for those who want take risks

Is the vaccine causing hesitancy, or people not understanding risks and politicians around Europe making contradictory statements?

Other than yourself, I'm not seeing many people elsewhere on boards, or other social media groups I frequent, particularly bothered about which version of a vaccine they might be offered when their turns comes up. They are more concerned about how many paracetamol they need to stock up on in advance, how sore their arms will be and how it will temporarily effect other medical issues they have. It's mostly a case of "give me the jab, any jab, asap". Certainly no sign of any fear of vaccines in general, and no real extra fears over the Astra Zeneca one.

irelandrover · 30-04-2021 10:51AM

Aegir wrote: »

AZ didn’t run the trials.

THis really should be split in 2

Oxford developed the vaccine and ran the trials, both of these were successful.

AZ reported on the trials, produce the vaccine, and communicate with the customers. All of these have been a disaster.

So my conclusion is Oxford did a very good job and AZ did a terrible job.

Id still take the AZ in the morning if i was offered it. Id prefer the Pfizer but thats only due to the shorter time between shots.

irelandrover · 30-04-2021 10:51AM

Aegir wrote: »

AZ didn’t run the trials.

THis really should be split in 2

Oxford developed the vaccine and ran the trials, both of these were successful.

AZ reported on the trials, produce the vaccine, and communicate with the customers. All of these have been a disaster.

So my conclusion is Oxford did a very good job and AZ did a terrible job.

Id still take the AZ in the morning if i was offered it. Id prefer the Pfizer but thats only due to the shorter time between shots.

30-04-2021 10:54AM

irelandrover wrote: »

THis really should be split in 2

Oxford developed the vaccine and ran the trials, both of these were successful.

AZ reported on the trials, produce the vaccine, and communicate with the customers. All of these have been a disaster.

So my conclusion is Oxford did a very good job and AZ did a terrible job.

Id still take the AZ in the morning if i was offered it. Id prefer the Pfizer but thats only due to the shorter time between shots.

From 10 May, indoor private home visiting can be permitted (without masks or social distancing) in the following cases:

fully vaccinated people can meet indoors with other fully vaccinated people as long as there are no more than 3 households present
fully vaccinated people can meet indoors with unvaccinated people from a single household, provided that they are not at risk of severe illness
This applies to:

persons who have received AstraZeneca (Vaxzevria) – 4 weeks after dose 1
persons who have received Janssen/Johnson & Johnson – 2 weeks after dose 1 (only dose)
persons who have received Pfizer – 1 weeks after dose 2
persons who have received Moderna – 2 weeks after dose 2
persons who have had a confirmed Covid-19 infection in the previous 6 months

.

robinph · 30-04-2021 10:56AM

It's so rubbish in the UK at the moment I think I might go to the pub for a couple of pints this weekend.

irelandrover · 30-04-2021 10:57AM

Deleted User wrote: »

.

What does that have to do with what I said? Thats isn't the time between shots.

robinph · 30-04-2021 10:59AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Yes I’m the one causing millions of Africans not take AZ and resulting in dozes going bad /s

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/world/vaccine-hesitancy-africa.html

You've already posted that story, but you clearly still haven't actually read it.

It is about general vaccine hesitancy within Africa, not anything directly related to Astra Zeneca.

30-04-2021 11:01AM

irelandrover wrote: »

What does that have to do with what I said? Thats isn't the time between shots.

Its very relevant. The 2nd dose of mRNA is needed to achieve the final level of protection. That is achieved with the first dose of AZ. The 2nd dose just maintains that, but after 4 weeks, you have the full effect

irelandrover · 30-04-2021 11:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Its very relevant. The 2nd dose of mRNA is needed to achieve the final level of protection. That is achieved with the first dose of AZ. The 2nd dose just maintains that, but after 4 weeks, you have the full effect

The vaccine passports will highly likely require both shots to be considered fully vaccinated. the extra 2 months between shots is the difference between travelling this summer or not.

robinph · 30-04-2021 11:11AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Which is my point AZ is dangerous as it’s leading to all other vaccines being avoided

There is a pre existing hesitancy to vaccines in Africa. Nothing to do with the manufacturer of them or even what condition they are to protect the person from.

robinph · 30-04-2021 11:12AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Do do that but don’t forget that pile of bones that is a result of stuff being opened too early in 2020 in UK as Tories declared victory too early

What has that got to do with the Astra Zeneca vaccine?

robinph · 30-04-2021 11:28AM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

One thing that genuinely puzzles me is the dearth of publicity and good news stories about the vaccines and the number of people getting them here.
My friends in the UK tell me there's almost like a VE days spirit around the many vaccination centres and social media is rammed with pictures and stories of people getting their jabs - I'm sure this has fed into the high level of acceptance of the jabs over there.
Here it's almost like they're being delivered by stealth.
I wish there was more positivity.

Whilst it wasn't exactly a party when I went in early March, you could sense that everyone in the queue had big grins under their masks. The vaccination volunteers all seemed delighted to be there, everyone queuing up was delighted to be queuing. Social media posts of vaccination cards and people wearing their vaccination stickers are quickly liked by all your friends. The moment I'd noticed I could book and had posted about that category being opened up all my social media acquaintances in the same group were jumping straight on the booking system. From then being parked outside the vaccination centre again a couple of weeks ago for the wife to get jabbed, and a bunch of other friends then having booked similar time slots once we'd noticed the system go live again the queue was again still full of delighted people. Then watching people emerge from the building and removing their masks as they got back into the cars with big grins on their faces. Lots of people changing their profile pictures as they get done still.

Also seeing similar from my USA social media contacts with massive delight as they get vaccinated.

Not seeing the same from my Irish and EU contacts.

robinph · 30-04-2021 11:31AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There is a clear history of lies, mistakes and a death count to reflect these feckups, from which no lessons were learned. Just like Brexit vaccinations have ended up being about “feelings” and not facts as displayed higher up in thread.

Everyone should go to the pub this weekend in uk, it be a good experiment I say. Good luck!

So nothing to do with the vaccination then, OK.

As for everyone going out tonight, they are in Liverpool.

BBC News - Covid: UK clubbers set to return to Liverpool for trial night
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-56943652

is_that_so · 30-04-2021 11:31AM

robinph wrote: »

Whilst it wasn't exactly a party when I went in early March, you could sense that everyone in the queue had big grins under their masks. The vaccination volunteers all seemed delighted to be there, everyone queuing up was delighted to be queuing. Social media posts of vaccination cards and people wearing their vaccination stickers are quickly liked by all your friends. The moment I'd noticed I could book and had posted about that category being opened up all my social media acquaintances in the same group were jumping straight on the booking system. From then being parked outside the vaccination centre again a couple of weeks ago for the wife to get jabbed, and a bunch of other friends then having booked similar time slots once we'd noticed the system go live again the queue was again still full of delighted people. Then watching people emerge from the building and removing their masks as they got back into the cars with big grins on their faces. Lots of people changing their profile pictures as they get done still.

Also seeing similar from my USA social media contacts with massive delight as they get vaccinated.

Not seeing the same from my Irish and EU contacts.

Still very low numbers vaccinated here, we'll see in about 6 weeks or so.

deeperlearning · 30-04-2021 11:50AM

robinph wrote: »

Whilst it wasn't exactly a party when I went in early March, you could sense that everyone in the queue had big grins under their masks. The vaccination volunteers all seemed delighted to be there, everyone queuing up was delighted to be queuing. Social media posts of vaccination cards and people wearing their vaccination stickers are quickly liked by all your friends. The moment I'd noticed I could book and had posted about that category being opened up all my social media acquaintances in the same group were jumping straight on the booking system. From then being parked outside the vaccination centre again a couple of weeks ago for the wife to get jabbed, and a bunch of other friends then having booked similar time slots once we'd noticed the system go live again the queue was again still full of delighted people. Then watching people emerge from the building and removing their masks as they got back into the cars with big grins on their faces. Lots of people changing their profile pictures as they get done still.

Also seeing similar from my USA social media contacts with massive delight as they get vaccinated.

Not seeing the same from my Irish and EU contacts.

Social media 'friends'. Yeah, right.

Must be true so!

brickster69 · 30-04-2021 11:53AM

AZ news

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N2MN0BL

robinph · 30-04-2021 11:54AM

deeperlearning wrote: »

Social media 'friends'. Yeah, right.

Must be true so!

What must be true?

Are you doubting these people exist?
Are you doubting they post on social media?
Are you doubting they have been vaccinated?

fly_agaric · 30-04-2021 11:56AM

robinph wrote: »

Not seeing the same from my Irish and EU contacts.

As you know, it has been a lot slower here. We (in Ireland) are very hooked into the US/UK + their media who've been somewhat gloating about their wonderful vaccination programmes for months and castigating our relative "failures" in the EU. That's the surface headline of it anyway, putting aside all the details and wrinkles behind that which have been discussed over course of the thread.

So what's been achieved here won't tend to make joe public jump for joy due to an unfavourable + imo unfair comparison.

The media environment really does have an effect on such things imo, suppose that's why so much is still spent on owning and running newspapers, tv channels, radio stations etc and buying advertising everywhere.

30-04-2021 12:08PM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember the Irish media gloating about how much better Ireland was doing than the UK.
Until January when Ireland suddenly had the highest infection rate in the world.
Comparisons went very quiet then ...

If only we had been more like the UK. Another 4,000 people could now be dead

I swear sometimes its a bit like a combination of the Daily Mail editorial room and Tory press office in here

quokula · 30-04-2021 12:22PM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember the Irish media gloating about how much better Ireland was doing than the UK.
Until January when Ireland suddenly had the highest infection rate in the world.
Comparisons went very quiet then ...

Ireland never had the highest infection rate in the world, there was an anomaly for about two days when the IT system was catching up on previously reported cases so we had an unrepresentative spike.

Our response to the pandemic has been vastly superior to the UK's throughout, with the one exception being the fallout of AZ reneging on their EU contract commitments, which unfortunately coincided with us being hit the Kent variant that the UK had nurtured into existence by acting as one of the world's biggest petri dishes throughout 2020.

Sure, they're back in the pubs a few weeks earlier than us, but I'm happier to know I'm not going to the pub to toast lost loved ones like so many millions in the UK have had to.

fly_agaric · 30-04-2021 12:25PM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember the Irish media gloating about how much better Ireland was doing than the UK.
Until January when Ireland suddenly had the highest infection rate in the world.
Comparisons went very quiet then ...

I don't remember gloating (from the media). Incredulity + maybe some fear about what was happening in the UK particularly with the way govt. there + Boris Johnson approached Covid in the early days last year.
Gloating about death is kind of nasty.
Gloating about a good job on vaccinations is more acceptable naturally.

30-04-2021 12:26PM

quokula wrote: »

Ireland never had the highest infection rate in the world, there was an anomaly for about two days when the IT system was catching up on previously reported cases so we had an unrepresentative spike.

Our response to the pandemic has been vastly superior to the UK's throughout, with the one exception being the fallout of AZ reneging on their EU contract commitments, which unfortunately coincided with us being hit the Kent variant that the UK had nurtured into existence by acting as one of the world's biggest petri dishes throughout 2020.

Sure, they're back in the pubs a few weeks earlier than us, but I'm happier to know I'm not going to the pub to toast lost loved ones like so many millions in the UK have had to.

If by response you mean “close everything down and pray” then I’d say Ireland was lucky more than anything else.

It is daft to compare countries.

revelman · 30-04-2021 12:32PM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

Well if Ireland was more like the UK in terms of population density and being a global transport hub then the results would be different.
There are many other countries with a higher population totals and density than Ireland which have lower fatality figures.
It's why having a Covid Death League is about as useful as a European Super League.

There is more to it than that. I was in Northern Ireland last June. The difference was huge. There was more respect for social distancing measures south of the border. Masks were few and far between in the North yet everyone was wearing them in the South. If Britain was anything like NI, then this attitude didn’t help.

brickster69 · 30-04-2021 12:37PM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

Well if Ireland was more like the UK in terms of population density and being a global transport hub then the results would be different.
There are many other countries with a higher population totals and density than Ireland which have lower fatality figures.
It's why having a Covid Death League is about as useful as a European Super League.

woops

brickster69 · 30-04-2021 12:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If only we had been more like the UK. Another 4,000 people could now be dead

I swear sometimes its a bit like a combination of the Daily Mail editorial room and Tory press office in here

Why not add the 12 European countries with a worse death rate / population to give it some context.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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