Sex Tips from the Bishops for Teenagers

osarusan · 28-04-2021 8:16am

osarusan wrote: »

You can see it in detail here:

https://www.cpsma.ie/rse-primary-programme-flourish/

In most of those lesson plans, the first 90% is just the kind of thing you'd expect to see at primary level, and then in the last 10% there's a 'reflection' section where they shoehorn in a fairly ham-fisted reference to God.

As an example of that, the final lesson for 6th class students is called 'It's ok to say No' and uses typical examples of peer pressure (older kids offering a smoke, going into a shop when not allowed to). Then they discuss these situations and pressures, and roleplay saying no to them.

Even the reflection is fine until the last paragraph:

4th class lesson 3 is on puberty, and it seems ok. Another puberty lesson is 5th Class lesson 1, and it's fine also, has a little questionnaire they work on with an adult they feel comfortable talking to. Then at the end, there's the bit about how God is helping us all the time.

People can look through my posts and see what I think about the Catholic church in Irish education, but actually I think that (final part of the Reflection aside) the content here is basically fine.

Just to add to my own thoughts, I suppose that one possible issue for me is whether those children whose parents have asked that they not be involved in religion classes would miss out on this whole programme, or whether they would just miss the final part of the Reflection section.

Missing out on the whole thing would not be ideal.

KevRossi · 28-04-2021 8:18am

landofthetree wrote: »

How could the state afford to pay the billions to buy the schools?

The vast majority of schools built since the founding of the state, and the vast majority of national schools built since the Famine have been paid for by the State. At times the Church gave up to 15%, but this after a local community drive that they financed.

A typical situation was that a school was built, a board appointed by the State and at the first meeting, before a sod was turned, it was decided that the school would be Catholic.

So we don't owe them billions, they arguably owe us.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Everyone in this country has the option of not enrolling their children in schools which they don’t want to.

You’re putting the horse before the cart if you’re trying to suggest that religion should be removed from schools which have a religious ethos. They are established specifically for the purpose of providing a religious education, and would close down if people didn’t continue to support them by enrolling their children in schools which they claim they have no choice but to do so. Establish your own schools if not exposing children to religion is so important to you.
.

No, schools are established to provide an education of which religion and sex education is a part. It is not the basis of an education. You're thinking of a Madhhabad.

And if my tax money is paid to provide a national school then I'd expect something as basic as sex education to be without religous influence. What next? Dinosaurs didn't exist as God only created the earth 8,000 years ago?

Geuze wrote: »

So every school would be a State-owned VEC/ETB?

Geuze wrote: »

Maybe I am odd, but I have different aspirations.

I aspire that my kids get a Jesuit education.

I one taught VEC lads, Jaysus the apathy could be felt in the room.

I then taught Ursuline girls, completely different, a joy to teach.

Why would anybody want every school to be State owned / VEC / ETB?

Do we want all schools to be like UK comprehensives?

Why not look up, why not aspire to better?

Macron was taught by the Jesuits, so was Joyce.

Yet you want your kids to go to the tech?

No need to be a snob. Most lads I know who went to 'Techs' are doing quite well. There's always people crying out for apprenticeships, they used to do a good job of providing them.

Most schools run perfectly well without religous influence, and almost all are run by a State overseeing body anyway. Private, fee paying schools will remain so.

I went to a deeply Catholic school. A place that was supposed to say a Hail Mary and Glory Be before every single class. Bullying was rife from students, teachers and priests. Nasty place to go to school. Favouritism shown openly to those from a certain part of town and discrimmination to those from the 'wrong' side of town. A sex abusing teacher, now in prison, was protected for years by the priests that ran it and by some other teachers.

Not very Catholic.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 8:22am

Most parents I know are generally happy with sending their kids to the catholic schools in the area whether it be the local convent or cbs school or the fee paying catholic schools

And yeah sure I’m all for freedom of choice if parents want to send their kids to the educate together type set ups

Balmed Out · 28-04-2021 8:29am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Most parents I know are generally happy with sending their kids to the catholic schools in the area whether it be the local convent or cbs school or the fee paying catholic schools

And yeah sure I’m all for freedom of choice if parents want to send their kids to the educate together type set ups

I think most parents are reconciled to it rather than happy, they like the school but given the choice would prefer the school to not follow any religious doctrine.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 8:34am

Balmed Out wrote: »

I think most parents are reconciled to it rather than happy, they like the school but given the choice would prefer the school to not follow any religious doctrine.

From talking to family and friends and just general acquaintances most of them (90% +) are happy enough with the catholic schools and all that goes along with that.

Of course I support ppl in having choice to send their kids to techs or educate together or whatever also

Topgear on Dave · 28-04-2021 8:38am

Many folks in my home town driving straight past the local tech in the town to go to the religious school 15km away, buses running too. Going on 30+ years.

The tech is dying on its ass.

shtpEdthePlum · 28-04-2021 8:42am

Jim2007 wrote: »

You are entitled to demand whatever you like and believe whatever every you like. But if you want to live in a Republic you have to respect the democratic right of the people to decide the outcome and they don’t seem to agree with you. And it will remain so until you can persuade them to do otherwise.

Geuze wrote: »

If people didn't want churches to run schools, that would have been changed by now.

Politicians respond to voters demands.

There is no widespread demand to change the main patron of most schools.

I love the death knell of the church in the morning.

There are people who are taking up the challenge to change this system.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40249028.html

Just to note a huge amount of these church demands (baptism ban etc) have been thrown out since 2018:
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/education-next-battle-between-church-and-state-36960077.html

As for rich people wanting it so it must be the best, that is laughable. Religion is just a substitute for morality in those who have to justify the inequities that keep them comfortable while others suffer.

Balmed Out · 28-04-2021 8:48am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

From talking to family and friends and just general acquaintances most of them (90% +) are happy enough with the catholic schools and all that goes along with that.

Of course I support ppl in having choice to send their kids to techs or educate together or whatever also

Its not a choice at the moment so it isnt part of any hopthetical conversations. Ask them would they prefer the school to become secular and overwhelmingly they will say yes. Most areas dont have an educate together and many parents would prefer a more main stream school anyhow as whether by design or just who they are more likely to attract their reputation isnt always very positive.

28-04-2021 8:49am

When we had very limited sex education in my secondary school, parents had the option to have their children opt out, the only ones who did were the god botherers.

is the same opt out option available for this farce for parents who recognise it as for what it is?

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 8:49am

Balmed Out wrote: »

Its not a choice at the moment so it isnt part of any hopthetical conversations. Ask them would they prefer the school to become secular and overwhelmingly they will say yes. Most areas dont have an educate together and many parents would prefer a more main stream school anyhow as whether by design or just who they are more likely to attract their reputation isnt always very positive.

From my experience as I have said in the previous post I would estimate 90%+ of my friends, family and acquaintances are happy to send their kids to catholic schools with all that it entails.

I’ve asked them about secular options etc and they said they’d prefer the catholic school system.

eviltwin · 28-04-2021 8:50am

I've been lucky enough that my kid is in an ET school. I don't think we will be as lucky when he is due to go to secondary school next year. There are a few non Catholic schools but we are outside the catchment area and they have always been very over subscribed.

I have no issue with Catholic schools for those who want them but would love more choice for those who don't. Religious iconography is a major trigger for me due to past issues and I'm not sure I can stomach going to school events and seeing crosses etc around the place.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 8:53am

ET schools, like any other type of school whether it be catholic, or the local tech, have good and bad to them

The local educate together school to me has a fairly bad reputation.

Huge indiscipline and bullying problems and various teachers have bad reps. Diff things allegedly not dealt with well.

Now, there’s a tech school nearby that has a great rep. Good teaching staff and good academic record etc.

Nobody should make the mistake of saying for example all ET schools=good, all Tech schools=bad.

Hoboo · 28-04-2021 9:04am

KevRossi wrote: »

So many people in this country have no other option, especially those in rural areas.

How about getting the fcuking church out of schools for once and for all. Let people send their kids to Sunday School if religion is so important to them.

But the same people have baptisms, communions, confirmations and weddings and then moan about the school being run by the church. The same people moaning are the same people feeding the system in the first place.

And their reason? We have no choice. Except they do. And they choose to take part in these ceremonies to keep favour amongst their family and peers, and the fear of not getting a school place.

So how about people stop adding numbers to the cult and giving them a mandate to run the schools? If a village is 10% catholic and not 90% as per the register they don't have a mandate.

I have zero sympathy.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 9:05am

If ppl take part in baptisms communions confirmations etc voluntarily I would consider them catholic. Am I mad for saying that ?

eviltwin · 28-04-2021 9:08am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If ppl take part in baptisms communions confirmations etc voluntarily I would consider them catholic. Am I mad for saying that ?

I don't think that alone is enough. I was baptised and made my communion etc but haven't been in a church in 30 years and don't consider myself Catholic.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 9:11am

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't think that alone is enough. I was baptised and made my communion etc but haven't been in a church in 30 years and don't consider myself Catholic.

if you voluntarily consented and organised for your child to get baptised and first communion etc should you be considered a catholic?

Johnny Jukebox · 28-04-2021 9:12am

Strumms wrote: »

Taking advice on sex from the clergy would be like taking advice on running from a person born without legs.

Umm, Oscar Pistorius ?

listermint · 28-04-2021 9:14am

Geuze wrote: »

Maybe I am odd, but I have different aspirations.

I aspire that my kids get a Jesuit education.

I one taught VEC lads, Jaysus the apathy could be felt in the room.

I then taught Ursuline girls, completely different, a joy to teach.

Why would anybody want every school to be State owned / VEC / ETB?

Do we want all schools to be like UK comprehensives?

Why not look up, why not aspire to better?

Macron was taught by the Jesuits, so was Joyce.

Yet you want your kids to go to the tech?

I went to a tech. The local Brothers school was full of erm.. how to put it scumbags. The notion that there was a higher quality of education in there is gas. You are deluded btw. And obviously have strong skin in the game. I suspect you might also subscribe to the teachings of our good friend senator Mullen.

listermint · 28-04-2021 9:15am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

if you voluntarily consented and organised for your child to get baptised and first communion etc should you be considered a catholic?

He didn't voluntary consent to be baptised though he was a child .. what was the point of your comment

28-04-2021 9:15am

As an atheist, the religion I am most concerned about right now in our schools is the religion of COVID.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 9:18am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If ppl take part in baptisms communions confirmations etc voluntarily I would consider them catholic. Am I mad for saying that ?

Listermint this is my original comment which the poster replied to

My point is that if parents consent to their kids being baptized and have first communion etc I would consider them Catholics.

Am I wrong in that regard

Pandiculation · 28-04-2021 9:21am

Let’s face it, we aren’t going to solve this problem because there’s no political will to deal with the position of the religious orders in schools.

So you’ll continue to have most people arriving into the real world having spent their entire teen years in an extremely conservative bubble that doesn’t reflect anything beyond its own walls.

It also points to an urgent role for access to information online and in other contexts as we aren’t very likely to ever have the political will to deal with any of this church control of schools, so the likelihood of serious sex and relationships education not being through the prism of a church window is very slim for many students who go to the 96% of schools run by these organisations.

eviltwin · 28-04-2021 9:23am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

if you voluntarily consented and organised for your child to get baptised and first communion etc should you be considered a catholic?

Again depends. I know people who did all that with their kids who are not adults, they don't go to church and haven't since the kids were small. I wouldn't call them Catholics. To me a Catholic is someone who actually practises the faith, goes to church on a Sunday and - most importantly - believes in God.

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 9:23am

Most people I know are fine with their kids attending catholic schools

There’s no big movement away from catholic schools

That said I am all for people choosing which school their kids go to

KaneToad · 28-04-2021 9:25am

touts wrote: »

Had to do an Accord pre marriage course in order to get married in a church a few years ago. This was back in the time when the choice was basically get married in a church with 200 guests or get married in a registry office with 2 witnesses and the lads queuing for their driving licence. So off we trotted to Accord.

This trendy priest in sandles etc arrived in on the final night to tell us all about sex on our wedding night. After a few minutes of, I sh1t you not, details on how the mechanics would work. One lad stuck his hand up and said. Father, You do realize you're the only virgin in the room.

To this day I wish I thought of that line. The Church will never stop trying to drag us back to the 1950s but God help them it's just embarrassing now.

Why would you get married in a church if you've no interest in their stance/doctrine?

Why would you assume that every priest is a virgin?

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 9:26am

Yeah why did he assume the priest was a virgin

Ffs some people are pure thick

Pandiculation · 28-04-2021 9:26am

Many people were happy using Telecom Éireann when it was a monopoly too, at least according to Telecom Éireann.

96% of schools are religious and 90% are Catholic. We’ve an illusion of their being some kind of choice or market place.

The reality is there are very few choices other than a small number of Educate Together schools, which aren’t available to the majority of people unless they’re lucky enough to live near one.

mariaalice · 28-04-2021 9:28am

Pandiculation wrote: »

Let’s face it, we aren’t going to solve this problem because there’s no political will to deal with the position of the religious orders in schools.

So you’ll continue to have most people arriving into the real world having spent their entire teen years in an extremely conservative bubble that doesn’t reflect anything beyond its own walls.

It also points to an urgent role for access to information online and in other contexts as we aren’t very likely to ever have the political will to deal with any of this church control of schools, so the likelihood of serious sex and relationships education not being through the prism of a church window is very slim for many students who go to the 96% or schools run by these organisations.

An old-fashioned view of teenagers the vast majority are very savvy and parental values both conscious and unconscious are a far bigger influence on them than anything said in school. https://spunout.ie/ is where they are much more likely to go for information. https://spunout.ie/category/sex-relationships

Beechwoodspark · 28-04-2021 9:34am

Pandiculation wrote: »

Many people were happy using Telecom Éireann when it was a monopoly too, at least according to Telecom Éireann.

96% of schools are religious and 90% are Catholic. We’ve an illusion of their being some kind of choice or market place.

The reality is there are very few choices other than a small number of Educate Together schools, which aren’t available to the majority of people unless they’re lucky enough to live near one.

And to add to that some of the educate together schools are really badly run

Pandiculation · 28-04-2021 9:35am

mariaalice wrote: »

An old-fashioned view of teenagers the vast majority are very savvy and parental values both conscious and unconscious are a far bigger influence on them than anything said in school. https://spunout.ie/ is where they are much more likely to go for information. https://spunout.ie/category/sex-relationships

It’s strange that it seems to work well in other countries where access to quality information though schools has proven to be vital tool in terms of providing them with knowledge.

Some are very savvy. Others think they’re very savvy ans aren’t or have weird information absorbed from who knows where.

You’re in an era where you could be getting your views of sex and relationships from really bad sources online

Sex Tips from the Bishops for Teenagers

Comments