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Cheap accountant

  • 17-04-2021 5:51am
    #1
    CPTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭


    I have a very simple business account with about 40 invoices, 10 expense receipts, and 1 large wage drawdown per year. Does anyone know a cheap enough crowd who could do the year-end accounts for me at a good rate? I'm currently paying over 2500 to someone, spread across the year, which feels a bit much.


Comments

  • #2
    Irishphotodesk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Are you operating as self employed or a company? Is the accountant doing bookkeeping and income tax returns?
    Can you explain what you mean by saying your accountant does invoices ?
    What sector are you in ?

    The accountant usually charges reflective on the amount of work needed, I'm self employed (sole trader) and my accountant calculates my vat monthly and income tax annually (give my accountant bank statements and receipts, and I outline any out of the ordinary income/receipts) I could have 20different sources of income in a given year and they store my documents for 7yrs.... For this my accountant charges under €1k .

    Where in Ireland are you based ? Maybe try goto another accountant and ask how much they would charge, then decide if you want to change accountant ...or ask your accountant if they are willing to lower their fees.


  • #3
    Xander10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Sounds a bit expensive, I presume we are talking a Limited co, that has to file accounts?


  • #4
    CPTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭CPTM


    Xander10 wrote: »
    Sounds a bit expensive, I presume we are talking a Limited co, that has to file accounts?

    Yes, thanks. It's a Ltd company with one single employee. There is a single client crediting the business account and a single employee receiving wages from it. It feels like a lot of money for something which could probably be done in an afternoon. In fairness, my current accountant is processing payroll and VAT on a monthly basis. But if it reduced costs I would do the VAT myself (if I'm allowed) and just take one or two salary payments in a given year.


  • #5
    CPTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭CPTM


    Irishphotodesk wrote: »
    Are you operating as self employed or a company? Is the accountant doing bookkeeping and income tax returns?
    Can you explain what you mean by saying your accountant does invoices ?
    What sector are you in ?

    The accountant usually charges reflective on the amount of work needed, I'm self employed (sole trader) and my accountant calculates my vat monthly and income tax annually (give my accountant bank statements and receipts, and I outline any out of the ordinary income/receipts) I could have 20different sources of income in a given year and they store my documents for 7yrs.... For this my accountant charges under €1k .

    Where in Ireland are you based ? Maybe try goto another accountant and ask how much they would charge, then decide if you want to change accountant ...or ask your accountant if they are willing to lower their fees.

    Sorry I didn't see this. I'm an IT contractor who invoices a single client under my ltd company. I invoice the client about 40 times in a year (some weeks are lumped together if I forgot to invoice) and I hand all those invoices to my accountant, and presumably he calculates VAT on the back of that. Based in Dublin.

    How do you manage your payroll? Do you drawdown your wages from your account and calculate income tax etc yourself? Edit: I know the accountant calculates it yearly but I suppose you need to know how much income tax is to be paid to ensure enough is left in the account to pay to revenue at year-end?


  • #6
    davindub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    CPTM wrote: »
    Sorry I didn't see this. I'm an IT contractor who invoices a single client under my ltd company. I invoice the client about 40 times in a year (some weeks are lumped together if I forgot to invoice) and I hand all those invoices to my accountant, and presumably he calculates VAT on the back of that. Based in Dublin.

    How do you manage your payroll? Do you drawdown your wages from your account and calculate income tax etc yourself? Edit: I know the accountant calculates it yearly but I suppose you need to know how much income tax is to be paid to ensure enough is left in the account to pay to revenue at year-end?

    Wages are handled differently for a sole trader, being drawings rather than salary.

    A Ltd company is a lot more work than a sole trader and 2500 sounds about reasonable in Dublin for VAT, payroll, Ltd company accounts, filings and income tax/ CT tax return for a small operation.


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  • #7
    DmanDmythDledge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 885 ✭✭✭DmanDmythDledge


    I'd be wary of anyone charging less than 2/2.5k


  • #8
    CPTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭CPTM


    And is this feedback the same if I just received one payroll payment per year? I'm obviously vastly underestimating the amount of work which needs to happen aside from payroll? I'll admit I don't know much about accounting.


  • #9
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    CPTM wrote: »
    I have a very simple business account with about 40 invoices, 10 expense receipts, and 1 large wage drawdown per year. Does anyone know a cheap enough crowd who could do the year-end accounts for me at a good rate? I'm currently paying over 2500 to someone, spread across the year, which feels a bit much.


    Total Rip off.


    1. Signup online to payroll software simplepay for 1 employer @ 50 euro per year.

    2. Get FREE, VT Cash Book accounting software (PC windows) to record your expenses/purchases with auto vat return calculator

    3. Hire accountant to teach you how to file income tax return etc end of year for 500e once off
    If everything organize over the year it takes 20 min to file.


    Need more help PM me or click Thanks button : )


  • #10
    Immy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Immy


    markmoto wrote: »
    Total Rip off.


    1. Signup online to payroll software simplepay for 1 employer @ 50 euro per year.

    2. Get FREE, VT Cash Book accounting software (PC windows) to record your expenses/purchases with automatic vat return calculator

    3. Hire accountant to teach you how to file income tax return etc end of year for 500e once off
    If everything organize over the year it takes 20 min to file.


    Need more help PM me or click Thanks button : )

    They are a limited company, they need more than just a form 11. They need abridged accounts for the CRO , CT return and B1 filing


  • #11
    Immy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Immy


    I’m an accountant, I work from home part time around my kids. All my clients are small companies like yourself. You can PM me if you want.


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  • #12
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Immy wrote: »
    They are a limited company, they need more than just a form 11. They need abridged accounts for the CRO , CT return and B1 filing




    I am sure he could find accountant who teach him all that for 500e once off
    No rocket science or some scary forms (CT, B1) everything pretty simple once someone explains.


  • #13
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Immy wrote: »
    I’m an accountant, I work from home part time around my kids. All my clients are small companies like yourself. You can PM me if you want.




    When you start new business and limited finances, lots of bills you have no choice but to learn your self. In other hand if everything nice and easy I am sure accountant would give me peace of mind & more time with the family.


  • #14
    Immy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Immy


    markmoto wrote: »
    I am sure he could find accountant who teach him all that for 500e once off
    No rocket science or some scary forms (CT, B1) everything pretty simple once someone explains.

    I’m sure he wouldn’t.


  • #15
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Immy wrote: »
    I’m sure he wouldn’t.


    I have made today simple spreadsheet to calculate payroll figures for each week/month.
    Anyone interested in free payroll calculator let me know.


  • #16
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Op, are you the single employee? I'm assuming you are

    Anyway. I don't work in practice but it sounds like you want an accountant who wants your once-a-year business. Which is a yearly tax return calc taking into account your company's income, your salary and B1 annual return. No idea of the cost but not 2500.

    Tell him you used the other accountant to get set up but you'll be taking on vat yourself and don't intend to do a monthly payroll. (folks, that's allowed isn't it?) withdraw a monthly income similar to a salary and do your income tax at year end


  • #17
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    antix80 wrote: »
    intend to do a monthly payroll. (folks, that's allowed isn't it?) withdraw a monthly income similar to a salary and do your income tax at year end




    Correct as company director you can assign weekly/monthly salary to your self.


  • #18
    davindub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    antix80 wrote: »
    Op, are you the single employee? I'm assuming you are

    Anyway. I don't work in practice but it sounds like you want an accountant who wants your once-a-year business. Which is a yearly tax return calc taking into account your company's income, your salary and B1 annual return. No idea of the cost but not 2500.

    Tell him you used the other accountant to get set up but you'll be taking on vat yourself and don't intend to do a monthly payroll. (folks, that's allowed isn't it?) withdraw a monthly income similar to a salary and do your income tax at year end

    You can't withdraw a salary without making the correct deductions/ returns anymore (paye modernisation has tightened up the scrutiny)

    The directors loan account rules are also subject to restrictions, they apply at any point during the year.

    Op talk to your own accountant if you want to take on the VAT yourself & get other quotes, but be aware the consequences of non compliance are aolied to the directors, pick the firm you use carefully.


  • #19
    davindub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    markmoto wrote: »
    Correct as company director you can assign weekly/monthly salary to your self.

    You can but make the correct returns and deductions. I think I know the answer to this already, but have you factored in the RPN information on your calculator?


  • #20
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    davindub wrote: »
    You can't withdraw a salary without making the correct deductions/ returns anymore (paye modernisation has tightened up the scrutiny)


    As director you pay your self salary, running payroll each week/ month.
    PRSI Class S

    davindub wrote: »
    Op talk to your own accountant if you want to take on the VAT yourself & get other quotes, but be aware the consequences of non compliance are aolied to the directors, pick the firm you use carefully.


    Why would you have to scare people off with all this stuff.
    Perhaps helping and showing some knowledge give them more confidence before they hire you.


  • #21
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    davindub wrote: »
    You can but make the correct returns and deductions. I think I know the answer to this already, but have you factored in the RPN information on your calculator?


    If you read previous post I suggest using simplepay online payroll software.
    With automatic payroll submission and RPN retrieval.

    for 1 employer 50e yearly more empl. less to pay.

    In relation to spreadsheet, you have to enter RPN info manually and submit payroll via ROS website.


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  • #22
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    davindub wrote: »
    You can't withdraw a salary without making the correct deductions/ returns anymore (paye modernisation has tightened up the scrutiny).

    Ah, that's what I was asking. I guess it complicates things somewhat for payroll .. While op's circumstances likely won't change, government can easy monkey with tax rates throughout the year. An even if op can do own payroll, the accountant still needs to pull everything together at year end. So likely op will be paying for payroll.

    I'd say to the op, just work with your accountant.

    markmoto you remind me of an IT project manager I work with. Everything's so simple, everything can be done on a spreadsheet. I dont trust project managers to find solutions


  • #23
    Sharpyshoot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 452 ✭✭Sharpyshoot


    Op can you take some payment by Johnny cash to retune your business?


  • #24
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    antix80 wrote: »

    markmoto you remind me of an IT project manager I work with. Everything's so simple, everything can be done on a spreadsheet. I dont trust project managers to find solutions


    I am giving hope :)


  • #25
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    It would be an incredibly foolish accountant who would attempt to "teach" someone to do their own returns. I wonder what sort of fall back on their PII there'd be after the inevitable mistake and revenue audit?

    €2500 doesn't sound all that bad for accounts, abridged accounts, B1, form 11, monthly payroll, and VAT. You get what you pay for.

    Ofc it's your business and you could take the chance of doing it yourself based on some spreadsheet that some randomer on the internet gave you. Sort of thing often ends up being an expensive mistake when the end of year accountant has to decipher poor books & records and correct mistakes and ends taking more time and money to do so.


  • #26
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

    Ofc it's your business and you could take the chance of doing it yourself based on some spreadsheet that some randomer on the internet gave you. Sort of thing often ends up being an expensive mistake when the end of year accountant has to decipher poor books & records and correct mistakes and ends taking more time and money to do so.


    OP they are not willing to help that's for sure :)


  • #27
    davindub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    markmoto wrote: »
    As director you pay your self salary, running payroll each week/ month.
    PRSI Class S





    Why would you have to scare people off with all this stuff.
    Perhaps helping and showing some knowledge give them more confidence before they hire you.

    Mark, I don't think anyone doubted that a director can pay themselves salary after making the required deductions and returns.

    Look nice that you are taking a interest but you will end up doing more harm than good if you are not 100% correct for the circumstances. In this regard, you are acting like a fool.


  • #28
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    davindub wrote: »
    Mark, I don't think anyone doubted that a director can pay themselves salary after making the required deductions and returns.

    Look nice that you are taking a interest but you will end up doing more harm than good if you are not 100% correct for the circumstances. In this regard, you are acting like a fool.

    If people make enough money no doubt they would hire accountant full time.
    When asking for help because they cant afford to pay 2k per year on a smallish business you should help instead of scaring them off.


  • #29
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Cheap accountant? Give me a break, The whole accounting industry involved in rip off behavior.
    Good thing to have professional on board however unnecessary greediness, profit purpose force startups and small business to take that into their own hands.


  • #30
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    A cheap accountant? Are you for real?

    They are more expensive than Solicitors.

    It's about time both professions were tackled for their charging practices.


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  • #31
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    A cheap accountant? Are you for real?

    They are more expensive than Solicitors.

    It's about time both professions were tackled for their charging practices.


    Totally agree !


  • #32
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    markmoto wrote: »
    If people make enough money no doubt they would hire accountant full time.
    When asking for help because they cant afford to pay 2k per year on a smallish business you should help instead of scaring them off.

    The OP didn't say they couldn't afford it.

    There's advantages to having a limited company (if you're doing fairly well). Assuming they are, you can use tax law to your advantage but part of the drawbacks of a limited company is the more onerous accounts and CRO requirements than a sole trade has. And ultimately you have to pay for that if you want it done right.

    Any accountant in practice can give you loads of horror stories about clients going off half cocked thinking they can manage it themselves. Some can but others can't and it doesn't end well when Revenue find out they haven't been able to manage it themselves.


  • #33
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    I will never forget the bill I got as a 20 year old orphan from an unnamed medium sized accountancy practice 20 +years ago, shortly after my father suddenly passed away. They had already got alot of business from my father, who was not a wealthy man, but was surrounded by hangers-on like these accountants. The bill It was £10,000 for work they said the undertook only a few months after he passed. The work was not overly complicated. They charged £3,000 alone for a very simple tax return, which was full of tip-exed corrections. Then two of the senior partners rang me one night bullying me into paying up when I disputed the fee. I was very vulnerable and grieving. They were sharks dressed up in suits. I had to grow up fast I can tell you. I heard one of them lost a fortune in property during boom. I wasn't surprised as in hindsight money was his god.

    At the time I discovered, unlike Solicitors, Accountants could charge what they wished.


  • #34
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    The OP didn't say they couldn't afford it.

    Any accountant in practice can give you loads of horror stories about clients going off half cocked thinking they can manage it themselves. Some can but others can't and it doesn't end well when Revenue find out they haven't been able to manage it themselves.


    He said that, read between the lines, few invoice here and there and 2.5k to pay, how can I save some money?


    Instead of helping, you are keep giving horror stories.

    Shame on the mess.


  • #35
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    I will never forget the bill I got as a 20 year old orphan from an unnamed medium sized accountancy practice 20 +years ago, shortly after my father suddenly passed away. They had already got alot of business from my father, who was not a wealthy man, but was surrounded by hangers-on like these accountants. The bill It was £10,000 for work they said the undertook only a few months after he passed. The work was not overly complicated. They charged £3,000 alone for a very simple tax return, which was full of tip-exed corrections. Then two of the senior partners rang me one night bullying me into paying up when I disputed the fee. I was very vulnerable and grieving. They were sharks dressed up in suits. I had to grow up fast I can tell you. I heard one of them lost a fortune in property during boom. I wasn't surprised as in hindsight money was his god.

    At the time I discovered, unlike Solicitors, Accountants could charge what they wished.


    If I pay accountant what they want, I will be working for them full time and sleep in the car :)


  • #36
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    markmoto wrote: »
    If I pay accountant what they want, I will be working for them full time and sleep in the car :)

    I made a mistake of not agreeing a price beforehand.

    Solicitors are known to agree a price beforehand and then sneak in an exclusion clause.


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  • #37
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    I made a mistake of not agreeing a price beforehand.

    Solicitors are known to agree a price beforehand and then sneak in an exclusion clause.


    My mate used to pay accountant 700 euro on sole trader income tax return.
    Until he figured out it takes 15 minutes to do that him self via ROS website.


  • #38
    CPTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭CPTM


    It's not really about affordability in this case. It's more value for money, especially since he began sending auto-generated emails which just reduces the personal touch a bit.

    I suppose I thought I could have an excel spreadsheet into which I could type my monthly earnings/expenses and it would just tell me how much VAT I need to pay to Revenue. And then in December I would hand the bank statement over to an accountant along with a couple of expense receipts and ask them to calculate how much wages I can drawdown for that year, and either verify whatever forms I need to fill out, or fill the forms out for a bit extra.


  • #39
    Immy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Immy


    As an accountant I always encourage clients to do their own VAT and payroll. Some want to do it themselves, some just want to hand everything over to me.

    I think there is value for money out there, but you won’t find it in one of the bigger practices . But what you’ll get there is a wealth of expertise.

    Most of my clients know with me they get the basics and they are happy with that


  • #40
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Immy wrote: »
    As an accountant I always encourage clients to do their own VAT and payroll. Some want to do it themselves, some just want to hand everything over to me.

    I think there is value for money out there, but you won’t find it in one of the bigger practices . But what you’ll get there is a wealth of expertise.

    Most of my clients know with me they get the basics and they are happy with that

    Out of interest, given what the op requires and assuming he does his own vat and payroll and his setup with his "employer" really is that simple . What would be a fair charge ex vat?

    To me it's all year-end work: tax return, personal income tax, B1, and just crossing the Ts on payroll (guidance on what needs to be paid as salary/closed company surcharge /directors loan acct compliance/etc)


  • #41
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    markmoto wrote: »
    My mate used to pay accountant 700 euro on sole trader income tax return.
    Until he figured out it takes 15 minutes to do that him self via ROS website.

    I doubt many accountants would put their name to a tax return for less than 500+vat.

    And the op is not a sole trader, his setup is much more complex so that's irrelevant.

    Mark, i know you mean well but you're really in the wrong place. Why not go over to the dentist forum and give people advice on pulling a loose tooth with a pliers to save the €100 extraction cost?


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  • #42
    The_Chap
    Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭The_Chap


    I have a number of simple sole trader clients, most pay a set monthly amount for me to take care of their returns whatever frequency that may be.
    They know also if they have any ad hoc queries during the year they have someone on the end of the phone.
    Typically cost is between 750-2000 per year depending on services required


  • #43
    ulster
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭ulster


    I'm in the same boat as the OP, but I figured the tax advice from the accountant, and him keeping me abreast of Revenue tax changes would be well worth the 2400 I have to pay.


  • #44
    CPTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭CPTM


    ulster wrote: »
    I'm in the same boat as the OP, but I figured the tax advice from the accountant, and him keeping me abreast of Revenue tax changes would be well worth the 2400 I have to pay.

    I mean if people in the know here are saying that it's not possible to get an accountant to do what I'm hoping for less than 1000 euro it might not be worth my while moving after tax really. The guy I have has lost a personal touch with the auto generated emails but he is always prompt to respond to any queries or ideas so maybe I should sit tight and let him do the monthly payroll and everything else that he does.


  • #45
    markmoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭markmoto


    CPTM wrote: »
    I mean if people in the know here are saying that it's not possible to get an accountant to do what I'm hoping for less than 1000 euro it might not be worth my while moving after tax really. The guy I have has lost a personal touch with the auto generated emails but he is always prompt to respond to any queries or ideas so maybe I should sit tight and let him do the monthly payroll and everything else that he does.


    Let him send you copies of everything he did for you over the year.
    E.g. bookkeeping records, salary, taxes, form filled etc absolutely everything


    This way you learn how the entire process works and make up your mind.
    Or else check this post link below about automated software for payroll and bookkeeping

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116917684&postcount=9


  • #46
    hold my beer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,006 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    antix80 wrote: »
    I doubt many accountants would put their name to a tax return for less than 500+vat.

    And the op is not a sole trader, his setup is much more complex so that's irrelevant.

    Mark, i know you mean well but you're really in the wrong place. Why not go over to the dentist forum and give people advice on pulling a loose tooth with a pliers to save the €100 extraction cost?


    :pac: brilliant


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