Hate crime nonsense

Overheal · 16-04-2021 9:23pm

nullzero wrote: »

Where, may I ask do you see xenophobic views in settled Irish people? A few posters on this site? Or are you surrounded by xenophobic Irish people where you live in America? Do you ask everyone that posts here about their ethnic status?

I'm assuming you can share your evidence of "a good bunch of settled Irish being racist, islamaphobic, antisemitic misogynistic and homophobic" and it isn't something you've gleaned from your interactions with a small number of posters on this site.

I'm also unaware of the Irish being a distinct race, when did this become a thing? I rarely drink and the obsession with alcohol people have in this country is a pet peeve of mine so you're pushing against an open door criticising us for that even if you were being facetious.

Ireland isn't an inherently racist place, there are some racists here, like everywhere but actual acceptance of xenophobic rhetoric is virtually non existent, our largest right wing party couldn't fill parish Hall with their supporters.

The whole traveller issue is difficult to break down unless you've had experience of it. It's easy to look at it from the outside and think "these people are being persecuted" but it isn't accurate.

You may not think it accurate and you may have a very easy time thinking of Ireland as just 'a bunch of individuals' because that's You and Yours. But you are treating Travelers as Others. You're lumping them together, in broad strokes. People citing specific incidents with specific travelers to write off the traveler ethnic group as a whole.

Your bias even against me as an American continues to bemuse because I spent so much time growing up in Ireland. I am not a rank novice to the Irish cultural experience, yet you automatically assume I do and condescend down to me because you stereotype American as Other, Outsider, Over There and presume in error that I have no personal experiences in this subject.

GarIT · 16-04-2021 9:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you base this on?

The huge number of people that will call anyone racist if they criticise a black or other non-white male person.

Das Reich · 16-04-2021 9:26pm

cheezums wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

Travellers as ‘genetically different’ from settled Irish as Spanish

Totally BS. If they separated 400 years ago how they can be different to Irish as Iberian people? Afrikaners also separeted from Dutch 400 years ago and they are still the same. Whites in South America have same genetics of Southern Europeans. Southern Italians separed from Greeks thousands years ago and still similar genetics.

Quantum Erasure · 16-04-2021 9:26pm

GarIT wrote: »

I didn't know we were so similar to Spanish people

Theres supposed to be some Spanish blood in the mix down around county Clare,

16-04-2021 9:30pm

GarIT wrote: »

The huge number of people that will call anyone racist if they criticise a black or other non-white male person.

A huge number ≠ a majority.

75,000,000 people voted for Trump. 75,000,000 is a huge number.

It wasn't close to a majority.

GarIT · 16-04-2021 9:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A huge number ≠ a majority.

75,000,000 people voted for Trump. 75,000,000 is a huge number.

It wasn't close to a majority.

I know. If you really want to be pedantic. The majority of people I have interacted with regarding issues with black people would say someone is racist for criticising a black person. Apparently you're racist for not dating them or sleeping with them too.

nullzero · 16-04-2021 9:46pm

Overheal wrote: »

You may not think it accurate and you may have a very easy time thinking of Ireland as just 'a bunch of individuals' because that's You and Yours. But you are treating Travelers as Others. You're lumping them together, in broad strokes. People citing specific incidents with specific travelers to write off the traveler ethnic group as a whole.

Your bias even against me as an American continues to bemuse because I spent so much time growing up in Ireland. I am not a rank novice to the Irish cultural experience, yet you automatically assume I do and condescend down to me because you stereotype American as Other, Outsider, Over There and presume in error that I have no personal experiences in this subject.

To be fair, how could I know what your experiences here are? You announce yourself as American regularly, the rest of what you've said I never read before.

To give an example of how even people who have lived here all their lives have the wrong idea about the traveller issue, I for a long time felt travellers were unfairly treated, the bad publicity could not possibly be fair and people had to get past their prejudice.

Then I ended up interacting with travellers regularly, I spent about 6 years doing so through my work. It didn't take long for the reality to hit me and I felt conflicted for some time about how I could reconcile my previous beliefs with the reality I now faced.

Sadly the reputation travellers have is of anything not fully representative of how bad their behaviour can be. I really wish this wasn't the case. I'd love for there to be nothing to back up why people are so fearful of them. If that were the case travellers would easily settle into wider Irish society. The problem is that they don't want to. They don't want to settle into British society either. The attitudes towards travellers are not down to Irish people being so uniquely xenophobic.

In your time living in Ireland did you have many encounters with travellers? Were they positive?

I know as a child my encounters of them were of them looking for handouts and maybe robbing clothes off of the washing lines of peoples houses. The type of thing poor people would do to scrape by, like stealing a loaf of bread. What travellers are like now is completely different, they have become a form of organised crime in a lot of instances. They have changed and become an awful lot more sinister.

I am certainly not citing a small number of specific incidents when I speak about travellers. My experiences are extensive as are many others, I didn't have any ill will towards travellers in the past, the only thing that made me wary of them was interacting with them. It's awful to know that the differences between travellers and the rest of Irish society are unlikely to ever improve, and sadly the ball is in their court when it comes to changing that, they simply refuse to play.

cheezums · 16-04-2021 9:46pm

Das Reich wrote: »

Totally BS. If they separated 400 years ago how they can be different to Irish as Iberian people? Afrikaners also separeted from Dutch 400 years ago and they are still the same. Whites in South America have same genetics of Southern Europeans. Southern Italians separed from Greeks thousands years ago and still similar genetics.

DNA analysis is "total BS"?

how did you come to that conclusion?

Das Reich · 16-04-2021 9:58pm

cheezums wrote: »

DNA analysis is "total BS"?

how did you come to that conclusion?

Where is the analysis, percentage of ydna and mtdna among travellers in the article compared to settled Irish and Spanish because I can't find it.

cheezums · 16-04-2021 10:01pm

Das Reich wrote: »

Where is the analysis, percentage of ydna and mtdna among travellers in the article compared to settled Irish and Spanish because I can't find it.

it's a newspaper article. the scientific paper it references is here:

https://repository.rcsi.com/articles/journal_contribution/Genomic_insights_into_the_population_structure_and_history_of_the_Irish_Travellers_/10783910

Overheal · 16-04-2021 10:02pm

nullzero wrote: »

To be fair, how could I know what your experiences here are? You announce yourself as American regularly, the rest of what you've said I never read before.

Thank you! That is my entire point! That is why in precisely none of these online conversations, you should ever even attempt to base any of your train of thought on such ad hominems in the first place. If you did, it would never, ever matter if someone did say "oh I live in South Carolina," because you'd never be of the mind to think that must automatically mean, "oh, that person has no clue about living in Ireland," or whatever other stereotype to accidentally put ones foot in ones mouth.

~Bless~

To give an example of how even people who have lived here all their lives have the wrong idea about the traveller issue, I for a long time felt travellers were unfairly treated, the bad publicity could not possibly be fair and people had to get past their prejudice.

Then I ended up interacting with travellers regularly, I spent about 6 years doing so through my work. It didn't take long for the reality to hit me and I felt conflicted for some time about how I could reconcile my previous beliefs with the reality I now faced.

Sadly the reputation travellers have is of anything not fully representative of how bad their behaviour can be. I really wish this wasn't the case. I'd love for there to be nothing to back up why people are so fearful of them. If that were the case travellers would easily settle into wider Irish society. The problem is that they don't want to. They don't want to settle into British society either. The attitudes towards travellers are not down to Irish people being so uniquely xenophobic.

In you time living in Ireland did you have many encounters with travellers? Were they positive?

Experiences in school, probably both positive and negative, I would have been clueless who would have been considered traveler or not, I was introduced into secondary school without any prior experience at that point. Was aware over time of Irish attitudes to travelers, and witnessed pub segregation and the like firsthand. I lived, I observed, I imbibed, but I wasn't an anthropologist when I was in Ireland no, admittedly

I know as a child my encounters of them were of them looking for handouts [rings bells] and maybe robbing clothes off of the washing lines of peoples houses. The type of thing poor people would do to scrape by, like stealing a loaf of bread. What travellers are like now is completely different, they have become a form of organised crime in a lot of instances. They have changed and become an awful lot more sinister.

I am certainly not citing a small number of specific incidents when I speak about travellers. My experiences are extensive as are many others, I didn't have any I'll will towards travellers in the past, the only thing that made me wary of them was interacting with them. It's awful to know that the differences between travellers and the rest of Irish society are unlikely to ever improve, and sadly the ball is in their court when it comes to changing that, they simply refuse to play.

I understand individual wariness, but it's also more institutional than that, with the likes of pub segregation.

So in essence, the problems began with an economic rift, which then crystalized into a social-economic rift?

Das Reich · 16-04-2021 10:09pm

cheezums wrote: »

it's a newspaper article. the scientific paper it references is here:

https://repository.rcsi.com/articles/journal_contribution/Genomic_insights_into_the_population_structure_and_history_of_the_Irish_Travellers_/10783910

I had read that before. Nothing proving that Irish (settled) are genetically closer to Spanish than to travellers, but showing Spanish are closer to Italians. Honestly, anyone can see that.

nullzero · 16-04-2021 10:14pm

Overheal wrote: »

Thank you! That is my entire point! That is why in precisely none of these online conversations, you should ever even attempt to base any of your train of thought on such ad hominems in the first place. If you did, it would never, ever matter if someone did say "oh I live in South Carolina," because you'd never be of the mind to think that must automatically mean, "oh, that person has no clue about living in Ireland," or whatever other stereotype to accidentally put ones foot in ones mouth.

~Bless~

Experiences in school, probably both positive and negative, I would have been clueless who would have been considered traveler or not, I was introduced into secondary school without any prior experience at that point. Was aware over time of Irish attitudes to travelers, and witnessed pub segregation and the like firsthand.

I understand individual wariness, but it's also more institutional than that, with the likes of pub segregation.

So in essence, the problems began with an economic rift, which then crystalized into a social-economic rift?

It's a cultural rift.

It has always been about their transient culture and their unwillingness to engage in Irish society.

I have been in pubs where travellers have been drinking plenty of times. The issues of what you characterise as "pub segregation" is related to large gatherings of travellers at events where disagreements between groups can turn violent, a sadly prevalent part of their culture.

It would be unusual for a couple of travellers to walk into a pub for a quiet drink and be asked to leave. It's something I've never witnessed and knowing people who work in the pub trade they regularly serve travellers and have no issue with them in normal circumstances.

I have had a lot of experience with travellers some good but mostly not. What I find interesting is how personable they can be in isolation, really easy company, reasonable and friendly, but when you take those same people and put them into a group of their peers the attitude they display is completely different. It's as if they feel a need to play up their differences when they are around each other.

I always treated them with the utmost respect, not all of my colleagues did and it wasn't helpful. I take people as I find them and I always took time to treat them as human beings. Sadly they didn't pay me that courtesy.

A lot of peoples minds are made up on either side of this divide. It's a pity because there's no need for it. Sadly there is a huge onus on travellers to integrate in some way with the rest of us. They would find settled society very welcoming to them if they did.

We all have complicated lives and nobody seeks confrontation for the sake of it. We don't all spend our days thinking about how awful travellers are and how we can better discriminate against them.

Ultimately the issue is a culture that is incompatible with anything other than itself. That culture can change and still retain its identity, travellers just need to see that.

cheezums · 16-04-2021 10:16pm

Das Reich wrote: »

I had read that before. Nothing proving that Irish (settled) are genetically closer to Spanish than to travellers, but showing Spanish are closer to Italians. Honestly, anyone can see that.

fair enough, i have no background in genetics myself. which phenotype variance/divergence analysis models should we be using to evaluate this kind of thing?

HotDudeLife · 17-04-2021 3:32pm

Das Reich wrote: »

Why Romania or Dubai?

Great Internet connection, light covid restrictions and most importantly haven't been infected by bs woke PC culture that is destroying the West.

Richard Hillman · 17-04-2021 3:42pm

Myself my friend were badly assaulted last year in a random attack, of which we were both hospitalised. The garda said they were investigating but nothing ever happened.

If the 2 of us just happened to be riding each other in our spare time, it would have went under a hate crime and the garda probably would have actually had to do some digging. It probably would have made the news ffs.

It was a random unprovoked assault by a group of people. It should have been investigated properly and the culprits punished accordingly.

We cant have a 2 tier legal system where some able bodied people are more protected than others.

Smee_Again · 17-04-2021 3:45pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Myself my friend were badly assaulted last year in a random attack, of which we were both hospitalised. The garda said they were investigating but nothing ever happened.

If the 2 of us just happened to be riding each other in our spare time, it would have went under a hate crime and the garda probably would have actually had to do some digging. It probably would have made the news ffs.

It was a random unprovoked assault by a group of people. It should have been investigated properly and the culprits punished accordingly.

We cant have a 2 tier legal system where some able bodied people are more protected than others.

Another poster who has to create a non existent situation in order to get outraged at this.

GarIT · 17-04-2021 4:04pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Another poster who has to create a non existent situation in order to get outraged at this.

I was mugged by travellers. Lost half a tooth and spent 24 hours in A&E. I could Identify the people and they were well known to Gardaí. They barricaded themselves behind this gate and Gardaí just said well we can't do anything about it now we can't get past the gate. Didn't make the news, if I talk about it I'm told that's racist to do so. If someone says "boo" to a traveller, black person or a member of the LGBT community its front-page news.

Das Reich · 17-04-2021 4:06pm

HotDudeLife wrote: »

Great Internet connection, light covid restrictions and most importantly haven't been infected by bs woke PC culture that is destroying the West.

I understand but most of the countries out of the anglosphere are like that. What I found strange is that those two places are so different than each other so thats why I asked.

Hector Savage · 17-04-2021 4:16pm

cheezums wrote: »

they're a distinct ethnic group recognized legally, and verified by actual science.

Science !!!

eleventh · 17-04-2021 4:18pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Myself my friend were badly assaulted last year in a random attack, of which we were both hospitalised. The garda said they were investigating but nothing ever happened.

Should probably follow it up or get legal advice. Gardai should investigate crime. If assault reported, there should be proof it was looked into. I was pickpocketed a while ago (obviously a minor crime in comparison). I reported it in hopes of getting the item back, but accepted later it was gone. A few weeks later I got a letter in the post from them, saying they'd investigated it but were unsuccessful in identifying the suspect (not exact wording but that was the gist).

StemCell · 17-04-2021 4:20pm

This is just the start.
Climate change in the next 30 years is going to either bring
a) a massive influx of Africans into Europe including Ireland or
b) a right wing/nationalist/protectionist uprising will militarize the European/African border

For now, every advert on Tv shows happy mixed race couples. It's definitely an agenda with a lot of
financial backing to push the happy face of multiculturalism.

The question is... is white the endangered species if climate change runs its course? Do we need to interbreed to survive the next couple of generations?

GarIT · 17-04-2021 4:24pm

GarIT wrote: »

I was mugged by travellers. Lost half a tooth and spent 24 hours in A&E. I could Identify the people and they were well known to Gardaí. They barricaded themselves behind this gate and Gardaí just said well we can't do anything about it now we can't get past the gate. Didn't make the news, if I talk about it I'm told that's racist to do so. If someone says "boo" to a traveller, black person or a member of the LGBT community its front-page news.

I know I'm replying to myself but wanted to add.

If a black person breaks the law, resists arrest, and gardaí have to get rough with them to arrest them, somehow the black person is the victim of hate crime, for an example see the recent arrest of George Nkencho's brother.

StemCell · 17-04-2021 4:27pm

GarIT wrote: »

I know I'm replying to myself but wanted to add.

If a black person breaks the law, resists arrest, and gardaí have to get rough with them to arrest them, somehow the black person is the victim of hate crime, for an example see the recent arrest of George Nkencho's brother.

I was beaten by an African on a bus, 90 witnesses, CC tv etc...
Caught by the guards. He didn't even get charged.

I'd nearly vote for Sinn Fein if I taught their historic vigil ante justice would clean up the country.

GarIT · 17-04-2021 4:41pm

StemCell wrote: »

I was beaten by an African on a bus, 90 witnesses, CC tv etc...
Caught by the guards. He didn't even get charged.

I'd nearly vote for Sinn Fein if I taught their historic vigil ante justice would clean up the country.

I hope you are aware Sinn Fein want complete open borders with no checks or limits on the number of people and to do away with the idea of needing a visa to come to Ireland.

17-04-2021 4:51pm

StemCell wrote: »

This is just the start.
Climate change in the next 30 years is going to either bring
a) a massive influx of Africans into Europe including Ireland or
b) a right wing/nationalist/protectionist uprising will militarize the European/African border

For now, every advert on Tv shows happy mixed race couples. It's definitely an agenda with a lot of
financial backing to push the happy face of multiculturalism.

The question is... is white the endangered species if climate change runs its course? Do we need to interbreed to survive the next couple of generations?

Ah cool, pushing the old race war nonsense and have some weird issue with interracial couples. What a sad man you are.

TomTomTim · 17-04-2021 5:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah cool, pushing the old race war nonsense and have some weird issue with interracial couples. What a sad man you are.

As usual, you completely ignore the other side. Race mixing is being pushed on TV, especially in ads, in a completely inorganic manner; as in it doesn't reflect reality. This is being pushed from the top, and said poster is reacting to that. He isn't the one whose created the agenda, he's simply reacting to it. So who's pushing the race war? Advertisers? Or the person you're replying to?

Tell me how · 17-04-2021 5:02pm

StemCell wrote: »

This is just the start.
Climate change in the next 30 years is going to either bring
a) a massive influx of Africans into Europe including Ireland or
b) a right wing/nationalist/protectionist uprising will militarize the European/African border

For now, every advert on Tv shows happy mixed race couples. It's definitely an agenda with a lot of
financial backing to push the happy face of multiculturalism.

The question is... is white the endangered species if climate change runs its course? Do we need to interbreed to survive the next couple of generations?

If only Greta had said that this would be the consequence of not acting to protect the environment, maybe all the ignorant, spluttering, outraged people who were telling her to shut up and get back to school would have actually agreed with her.

Wishful thinking probably, some people only care about all lives when calls for Balck lives gets attention, they only care about gun violence in black communities when it's an argument to deflect the attention of police having killed someone, and they only care about the climate when they realize that destroying entire regions of the planet might mean that the people in those areas end up moving in to predominantly white societies.

17-04-2021 5:11pm

TomTomTim wrote: »

As usual, you completely ignore the other side. Race mixing is being pushed on TV, especially in ads, in a completely inorganic manner; as in it doesn't reflect reality. This is being pushed from the top, and said poster is reacting to that. He isn't the one whose created the agenda, he's simply reacting to it. So who's pushing the race war? Advertisers? Or the person you're replying to?

It's a little bit weird that you're actively getting upset by the skin colour of couples on TV. It's somewhat reminiscent of the couple from the Lidl ad that got harassed by racists. So yep I'm inclined to say the fact that you're upset by the ads says more about you.

GarIT · 17-04-2021 5:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

some weird issue with interracial couples.

I've no issue with interracial couples, but when 9% of the people in Ireland are non native. And a large number of those came with spouses or marry within their race. Why are 70%+ of couples on ads interracial or if they are white they have to be gay? Same with media exposure, or discussion pannels, non irish people are at least overrepresented in the media by a factor of 2 or three. Why does every discussion panel have to have a black person when if you spent a day outside Dublin looking for one you probably wouldn't be able to find a black person.

And what about eastern Europeans or English they make up the majority of our immigrants and not one of them is represented in the media, no Indians or Chinese either, just black people everywhere despite there being so few of them.

People in favour of quotas on everything would go crazy if there was a quota that natives had to make up 80% of the people on TV and in ads.

There a huge amount of privilege in modern society that comes with being not Irish and/or not male. I was on a hiring panel recently, given the usual spiel about not discriminating, judging people on their ability only, etc, and then told to keep in mind that we are trying to increase the number of women we hire and the diversity of people we hire. I can't believe they don't see the double standard.

Hate crime nonsense

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