Commencement notice

Effects · 14-04-2021 3:13pm #1

Does my builder need to complete a commencement notice before he starts work on a house renovation? Big extension onto the back of existing house. Or can he just fire ahead with the work, once it's under my instruction?

Metric Tensor · 14-04-2021 3:33pm

Depends on the the size of the "big extension"

The answer is probably yes - but it's you or your engineer/architect/tech that need to lodge the commencement notice - not the builder.

Effects · 14-04-2021 3:45pm

Ah ok. I assume the architects will look after it in that case. It's 80 sq metres, and in an Architectural Conservation Area. Planning hasn't been approved yet, but decision due next month from DCC. Site excavated and putting the foundations down this week.

The Mighty Quinn · 14-04-2021 4:00pm

Effects wrote: »

Ah ok. I assume the architects will look after it in that case. It's 80 sq metres, and in an Architectural Conservation Area. Planning hasn't been approved yet, but decision due next month from DCC. Site excavated and putting the foundations down this week.

You can't legally put down foundations for works that have not received planning approval yet. You can excavate, but not pour foundations.

Gumbo · 14-04-2021 4:06pm

Effects wrote: »

Ah ok. I assume the architects will look after it in that case. It's 80 sq metres, and in an Architectural Conservation Area. Planning hasn't been approved yet, but decision due next month from DCC. Site excavated and putting the foundations down this week.

You’ve already breached the planing act and the building control act so I wouldn’t be saying too much more!

Also, you can’t presume the architects will take care of it as the building owner has to register on the BCMS too and log in and accept the roles.

Also, your architect, may infact walk away now as he/she cannot sign a cert of compliance with the building control regulations of you have infact already breached the building control regulations.

Effects · 14-04-2021 4:07pm

Isn't it the builders job to just carry out the work, and not worry about rules and regulations?
He's been working away the past few months on the house, but since Monday, he can get on with the more visible stuff.

Gumbo · 14-04-2021 4:08pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

You can't legally put down foundations for works that have not received planning approval yet. You can excavate, but not pour foundations.

I wouldn’t even go as far as “you can excavate”.
Once you excavate trenches for the founds, you now have Part C of the Building Regulations in effect so therefore should have a CN.

Gumbo · 14-04-2021 4:09pm

Effects wrote: »

Isn't it the builders job to just carry out the work, and not worry about rules and regulations?
He's been working away the past few months on the house, but since Monday, he can get on with the more visible stuff.

Nope.
The building owner is the legal party under the building control act. The builder will ride into the sunset while you are prosecuted unfortunately.

Effects · 14-04-2021 4:11pm

That's what I mean. It's not up to the builder to follow the regs, but the building owner. The builder just follows instructions.

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission. So apply for retention if needs be. That's how the system is set up.

Gumbo · 14-04-2021 4:13pm

Effects wrote: »

That's what I mean. It's not up to the builder to follow the regs, but the building owner. The builder just follows instructions.

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission. So apply for retention if needs be. That's how the system is set up.

Nope. Id blame the pub for all this pub talk, but their closed.
Someone is feeding you with very inaccurate guidance.

You can’t retrospectively get a commencement notice.
It’s not like planning.

Once you start, you can never comply.

Effects · 14-04-2021 4:23pm

Gumbo wrote: »

You’ve already breached the planing act and the building control act so I wouldn’t be saying too much more!

Maybe the architect has organised the cert of compliance/commencement notice, I'm not sure.
As long as the builder holds off on pouring foundations though, it should be alright to have them excavated?

Effects · 14-04-2021 4:25pm

Gumbo wrote: »

You can’t retrospectively get a commencement notice.

But the architect/engineer might already have gotten the commencement notice, and started the work even though the planning is still in process?

The Mighty Quinn · 14-04-2021 4:33pm

Effects wrote: »

But the architect/engineer might already have gotten the commencement notice, and started the work even though the planning is still in process?

No.

You cannot lodge a commencement notice without a grant of planning number.

sydthebeat · 14-04-2021 4:33pm

You would have to had signed forms.

If you haven't, then there's no commencement notice gone in

Effects · 14-04-2021 4:43pm

Thanks for all the advice.

Gumbo · 14-04-2021 5:00pm

Effects wrote: »

Maybe the architect has organised the cert of compliance/commencement notice, I'm not sure.
As long as the builder holds off on pouring foundations though, it should be alright to have them excavated?

Can’t be done without the final grant of permission. That comes 4 weeks after the notification to grant permission. You have to give 2 weeks commencement notice to the building control division.

My opinion is not to excavate. You are carrying out works that effect the building regulations and related to the works in which planning was sought for.

Effects wrote: »

But the architect/engineer might already have gotten the commencement notice, and started the work even though the planning is still in process?

Nope. As above. Can’t be done. You also have to sign forms which it appears you haven’t. You also have to log onto the BCMS and create a profile so you can digitally accept the role. This also appears to not have been done.

Metric Tensor · 14-04-2021 7:14pm

It's a month before you get a decision and then 4 more weeks before you get a grant (assuming no-one objects) and then an absolute minimum of 2 weeks before your commencement notice kicks in.

That means if everything goes PERFECTLY it's 10 weeks before you can start building.

There's not many engineers out there that would consider it a good idea to dig now for a foundation that won't be poured for at least 19 weeks! Assuming it's a strip foundation (because most are up your way) what state will trenches be in after 10 weeks sitting there? Not to mention the health and safety issues of it!

Effects · 14-04-2021 7:43pm

Swung past the house after work, foundations are poured.

Gumbo · 14-04-2021 10:21pm

Effects wrote: »

Swung past the house after work, foundations are poured.

No going back now.
Did the engineer inspect the open trenches, reinforcement?

Sounds like your cowboy, sorry, builder is pushing towards a stage payment.

Effects · 14-04-2021 10:57pm

To be honest. The planning system in Ireland is a bit of a joke, and if ever there was any time to take advantage, it's now, when most of the council is 'working from home'. Get the work done, get in to the house asap. Covid had held things up enough. During the lockdown none of the external works could be done, so the builder had to concentrate on just getting everything done on the inside of the house.

Sure I know a guy on my street who had enforcement contacted when he started to build a two bedroom house in his garden without permission. He had it finished and tenants moved in before the council even got around to doing an inspection. Four years later it's still there. Probably pulled in close to €120,000 on it at this stage.

burkey2k0 · 14-04-2021 11:31pm

Effects wrote:

Sure I know a guy on my street who had enforcement contacted when he started to build a two bedroom house in his garden without permission. He had it finished and tenants moved in before the council even got around to doing an inspection. Four years later it's still there. Probably pulled in close to â‚¬120,000 on it at this stage.

Working out at â‚¬2500 a month for a 2 bedroom, it must be an extremely nice house to be getting that rent.
But with tax bill on that, if even he is getting that amount, he has only 'pulled in' approx â‚¬65,000 in profit. I don't know how much it costs to build a house these days, but after making 65k after 4 years, it would be squeaky bum time for quite a few more years. Profit from selling the house would obviously contribute greatly to quickening him making his money back!... Oh, but he can't sell the house without permission...

BryanF · 15-04-2021 8:09am

Effects wrote: »

To be honest. The planning system in Ireland is a bit of a joke, .

Sounds like the build wasn’t planned properly? A year into lock down and planning hasn’t been secured?

The Mighty Quinn · 15-04-2021 8:52am

Effects wrote: »

To be honest. The planning system in Ireland is a bit of a joke, and if ever there was any time to take advantage, it's now

No, just no. It's not perfect but it exists for a reason. Flouting planning laws to suit yourself isn't clever it's reckless.

Effects · 15-04-2021 8:52am

burkey2k0 wrote: »

Working out at €2500 a month for a 2 bedroom, it must be an extremely nice house to be getting that rent.
But with tax bill on that, if even he is getting that amount, he has only 'pulled in' approx €65,000 in profit. I don't know how much it costs to build a house these days, but after making 65k after 4 years, it would be squeaky bum time for quite a few more years. Profit from selling the house would obviously contribute greatly to quickening him making his money back!... Oh, but he can't sell the house without permission...

It's the lack of supply in rental housing, coupled with the area it's in, that dictates what rent he's getting.
But it only has a fraction of the outdoor space that's required, and a very basic build. Obviously didn't want to spend much when building it.

Multiple failed attempts to obtain retention, and planning, so it's dragging on.

Effects · 15-04-2021 8:54am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

No, just no. It's not perfect but it exists for a reason. Flouting planning laws to suit yourself isn't clever it's reckless.

Isn't it argued that building, and then applying for retention, is just part of the planning process.

The Mighty Quinn · 15-04-2021 9:12am

Effects wrote: »

Isn't it argued that building, and then applying for retention, is just part of the planning process.

By who? Cowboy builders? Nobody reputable would argue that.

Effects · 15-04-2021 9:22am

I've seen it argued on this forum by industry professionals. The retention process is there, so it can be taken advantage of.
And the same people have said it's not the builders responsibility to follow building regulations, it's his job to just do as he is instructed.

DOCARCH · 15-04-2021 9:37am

Effects wrote: »

I've seen it argued on this forum by industry professionals.

Very much doubt it? I'd like to see what you have seen/read....link?

Retention permission is a tool to regularise genuine mistakes.

Effects · 15-04-2021 9:42am

DOCARCH wrote: »

Very much doubt it? I'd like to see what you have seen/read....link?

Retention permission is a toll to regularise genuine mistakes.

Various posts, over the past couple of years.
I wouldn't have much time to find them right now, but I'll dig them out when I have a chance and can send them on to you.

While regularising mistakes is the reason for retention permission, people often take advantage of it, and get away with it. So long as you aren't completely taking the píss.

Gumbo · 15-04-2021 11:34am

Effects wrote: »

So long as you aren't completely taking the píss.

That rules you out then as you are clearly misleading the building control authority and the planning authority to suit your personal gain.

Effects · 15-04-2021 1:06pm

Will it affect the planning decision though, given that the work started early? It's not really that much of an issue, as other houses on the road have similar size extensions. The garden space rule might be pushed a bit though.

Gumbo · 15-04-2021 2:20pm

Effects wrote: »

Will it affect the planning decision though, given that the work started early? It's not really that much of an issue, as other houses on the road have similar size extensions. The garden space rule might be pushed a bit though.

Your not making any sense unfortunately.
You don’t “push” the garden docs in an application. The garden space is a requirements for exempted development.

muffler · 15-04-2021 2:58pm

Effects wrote: »

Will it affect the planning decision though, given that the work started early? It's not really that much of an issue, as other houses on the road have similar size extensions. The garden space rule might be pushed a bit though.

what exactly did you apply for? Retention?

Effects · 15-04-2021 10:01pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Your not making any sense unfortunately.
You don’t “push” the garden docs in an application. The garden space is a requirements for exempted development.

Ah ok, I though you needed 10 sq m of garden, per bed space in the house.

Effects · 15-04-2021 10:03pm

muffler wrote: »

what exactly did you apply for? Retention?

Permission that's applied for is for an 80 sqm rear extension, large rear garage and new driveway to front.

But builder is ploughing ahead with the work while awaiting permission to come through.

muffler · 15-04-2021 10:28pm

Effects wrote: »

Permission that's applied for is for an 80 sqm rear extension, large rear garage and new driveway to front.

But builder is ploughing ahead with the work while awaiting permission to come through.

You do realise that if/when the planner sees that works have commenced your current application will be invalidated and returned to you?

Effects · 15-04-2021 10:31pm

muffler wrote: »

You do realise that if/when the planner sees that works have commenced your current application will be invalidated and returned to you?

If that was the case, then why would the architect and builder decide it was ok to go ahead with the works?

I guess this will then leave no option other than to apply for retention instead?

Gumbo · 15-04-2021 10:33pm

Effects wrote: »

If that was the case, then why would the architect and builder decide it was ok to go ahead with the works?

I guess this will then leave no option other than to apply for retention instead?

Quite simply, because you have a bunch of cowboys engaged that are taking you for a mug.

If the sh1t hits the fan, it’s you that pays. Not them.

When did you lodge for planning?

muffler · 15-04-2021 10:37pm

Effects wrote: »

If that was the case, then why would the architect and builder decide it was ok to go ahead with the works?

They wouldnt have done anything without instructions from yourself.

You are coming across as incredibly naive. I suspect there's a lot more going on here that we arent being told.

Effects · 15-04-2021 10:39pm

March 16th 2021 planning was lodged. Building work started in January 2021, but mainly internal, and demolition of single storey rear section of the house.
April 12th builders decided it was ok to start more obvious work, so took out the front railings of the house, rear wall that backs on to a lane, and excavate and pour the foundations.

Effects · 15-04-2021 10:41pm

muffler wrote: »

They wouldnt have done anything without instructions from yourself.

You are coming across as incredibly naive. I suspect there's a lot more going on here that we arent being told.

I better just not say anything more so, and will update in a couple of months once I find out what DCC decide regarding planning, etc.

Thanks for all the helpful input from everyone.

maxsmum · 16-04-2021 6:21am

Effects wrote: »

March 16th 2021 planning was lodged. Building work started in January 2021, but mainly internal, and demolition of single storey rear section of the house.
April 12th builders decided it was ok to start more obvious work, so took out the front railings of the house, rear wall that backs on to a lane, and excavate and pour the foundations.

I'm so confused. Building work started in January when building work closed down? And that amount of work has been done with no planning?
I know you're keen to crack on but this is ringing so many alarm bells. I would put a hold on everything and put your heads together with all the parties. You'll be the one made to tear something down if it's non compliant.

BryanF · 16-04-2021 8:13am

Effects wrote: »

Ah ok. I assume the architects will look after it in that case. It's 80 sq metres, and in an Architectural Conservation Area. Planning hasn't been approved yet, but decision due next month from DCC. Site excavated and putting the foundations down this week.

OP, you’re around long enough to know we obey the law in this forum. there has also been an accusation that the thread is fiction. Closing the thread now, but if you’d like to discuss please PM the mods.

Commencement notice

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